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> Thus it is going to be hard to avoid a network connected car and it seems likely that network will be the Internet. Well, I agree that maps as a second sourc

> Thus it is going to be hard to avoid a network connected car and it seems likely that network will be the Internet. Well, I agree that maps as a second source of information can be important for autonomous vehicles. However, I don't understand why "map" would imply "network connected". Offline navigation systems with detailed maps have existed and still exist for more than twenty years now. I fear that the "offline autonomous vehicle" will solely fail to manifest because of business decisions (online being "more convenient" for both the end-user and the company), not because of technical limitations.

joe_the_user 9y ago
Well, sure keeping maps offline could allow the connection to not be constant but the maps would require very frequent updating since being out of date could have dangerous consequences, and the updating would be most easily done by network. Edit: which is to say, maps aren't really secondary parts of current systems but more like "co-primary" parts. The cars aren't planning identify traffic lights where they don't expect them.
- vuln 9y ago
  For me it would be I only want my vehicle to update when I say so on a network I trust that is probably firewalled. I would prefer this rather than my car updating OTA via someone else's wifi or even the cellular network. This would reduce the risk of a hostile actor taking control of the vehicle when you are most vulnerable. When you're actually driving it.
- gowld 9y ago
  Relying on a map at runtime for identifying traffic lights g is preposterous. A self-driving car that ignores any temporarily modified or new signaling would be a disaster.
  - joe_the_user 9y ago
    Hey, I can understand not liking it but so far, maps are absolutely "integral" to the operations of self-driving cars. Maybe they'll be less "preposterous" later. "Almost all of the fully autonomous vehicles currently allowed on public roads are still under the direct supervision of human pilots, and they’re only driving on roads that have been heavily studied and mapped in three dimensions." See: https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/self-driving-cars-driving-into-the-future/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/self-driv... or "Cars will only be able to drive themselves if they have access to high-precision maps. The digital material contained in today’s navigation systems is not enough. To be able to drive itself safely, a car needs to know its position on the road down to the centimetre. " https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/mercedes-benz/next/connectivity/high-precision-maps-for-self-driving-cars/ https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/mercedes-benz/next/connecti...
    - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
      It's integral to a certain class of self-driving cars. Waymo relies on centimeter-level mapping of the environment, and sure, could not possibly operate without a map. The car establishes its exact environment in the world using the maps, and I presume then looks for things then in that environment to track. Comma.ai, on the other hand, feeds their AI the camera feed and the sensor signals from the car, and it responds, as far as I know, almost entirely based on that stimulus. Of course, Comma.ai's car is presumably less predictable, it relies on a black box to "think", but you could feed it the general concept of what path to take from A to B, even a set of waypoint GPS coordinates of where to turn, and hypothetically, such a car could navigate to that destination otherwise offline, or with the grade of maps reasonably available offline. It's intended to drive like a human drives: Based on the information it perceives in the world around it.
      - joshuamorton 9y ago
        Comma.ai doesn't appear to have cars that even approximately drive themselves (it's got adaptive cruise control, sure, but so does every car company now). It has a camera. Sure they have a proposal to not use maps, but they don't have a result.
taneq 9y ago
"map" doesn't imply "network connected". "Google" does.
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
> Offline navigation systems with detailed maps have existed and still exist for more than twenty years now. When a dashboard GPS is out of date, it's irritating. When your car's autonav system is out of date, your car is useless.

joe_the_user 9y ago

Well, sure keeping maps offline could allow the connection to not be constant but the maps would require very frequent updating since being out of date could have dangerous consequences, and the updating would be most easily done by network. Edit: which is to say, maps aren't really secondary parts of current systems but more like "co-primary" parts. The cars aren't planning identify traffic lights where they don't expect them.

vuln 9y ago
For me it would be I only want my vehicle to update when I say so on a network I trust that is probably firewalled. I would prefer this rather than my car updating OTA via someone else's wifi or even the cellular network. This would reduce the risk of a hostile actor taking control of the vehicle when you are most vulnerable. When you're actually driving it.
gowld 9y ago
Relying on a map at runtime for identifying traffic lights g is preposterous. A self-driving car that ignores any temporarily modified or new signaling would be a disaster.
- joe_the_user 9y ago
  Hey, I can understand not liking it but so far, maps are absolutely "integral" to the operations of self-driving cars. Maybe they'll be less "preposterous" later. "Almost all of the fully autonomous vehicles currently allowed on public roads are still under the direct supervision of human pilots, and they’re only driving on roads that have been heavily studied and mapped in three dimensions." See: https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/self-driving-cars-driving-into-the-future/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/self-driv... or "Cars will only be able to drive themselves if they have access to high-precision maps. The digital material contained in today’s navigation systems is not enough. To be able to drive itself safely, a car needs to know its position on the road down to the centimetre. " https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/mercedes-benz/next/connectivity/high-precision-maps-for-self-driving-cars/ https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/mercedes-benz/next/connecti...
  - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
    It's integral to a certain class of self-driving cars. Waymo relies on centimeter-level mapping of the environment, and sure, could not possibly operate without a map. The car establishes its exact environment in the world using the maps, and I presume then looks for things then in that environment to track. Comma.ai, on the other hand, feeds their AI the camera feed and the sensor signals from the car, and it responds, as far as I know, almost entirely based on that stimulus. Of course, Comma.ai's car is presumably less predictable, it relies on a black box to "think", but you could feed it the general concept of what path to take from A to B, even a set of waypoint GPS coordinates of where to turn, and hypothetically, such a car could navigate to that destination otherwise offline, or with the grade of maps reasonably available offline. It's intended to drive like a human drives: Based on the information it perceives in the world around it.
    - joshuamorton 9y ago
      Comma.ai doesn't appear to have cars that even approximately drive themselves (it's got adaptive cruise control, sure, but so does every car company now). It has a camera. Sure they have a proposal to not use maps, but they don't have a result.

taneq 9y ago

"map" doesn't imply "network connected". "Google" does.

PhasmaFelis 9y ago

> Offline navigation systems with detailed maps have existed and still exist for more than twenty years now. When a dashboard GPS is out of date, it's irritating. When your car's autonav system is out of date, your car is useless.