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The US seems to get less of everything for its money than its peers. Geographic spread is a major macro factor, but you'd still think that a supposedly efficien

The US seems to get less of everything for its money than its peers. Geographic spread is a major macro factor, but you'd still think that a supposedly efficient capitalistic market would at least handle local services better.

heavenlyblue 9y ago
But not petrol.
aeorgnoieang 9y ago
> a supposedly efficient capitalistic market The 'new commanding heights'[1] of the modern U.S. economy are all the least capitalistic markets: education, healthcare, and housing. Nor would I expect "local services" to be much more 'capitalistic' if you're referring to services provided by municipal governments. [1]: [The New Commanding Heights | National Affairs](http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-new-commanding-heights http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-new-c...)
- DrScump 9y ago
  'new commanding heights'[1] That source is from 2011, in the depths of the recession.
bkohlmann 9y ago
For market based goods, the US does deliver pretty phenomenal, innovative and minimally priced outputs. Groceries, energy, technology, etc. "Local services" are almost always driven by non-market based considerations. Politics, not economics, determines contract awards for public works. It's as far from the market as you can get. And our society receives commensurate "value."
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  Note, too, that the New York City Subway was almost entirely privately funded and built.
  - mulmen 9y ago
    How was that possible and why does it not seem to happen today? What changed? Is it still privately owned?
    - sethhochberg 9y ago
      Even back in the "dual system" days when two companies operated the majority of the subway, most of the lines / tunnels were built or financed by the city: https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Chapter_1:_Dual_System_of_Rapid_Transit https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Chapter_1:_Dual_System_of_Rap... Later on, the city built its own third competitor to the two private operators, and eventually ended up purchasing them both. These days the entire system is owned by the state of New York (which took over when the city was out of money during the decline of the 1960/70s). (There is a lot more nuance here... but the highlight is that the city/state often directly or indirectly financed capital construction regardless of whether they were the operator of the system at the time)
      - mulmen 9y ago
        Thanks. This doesn’t sound much different from how most public transit is built.
      - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
        The BRT was formed from the remains of the privately-financed Long Island Traction Company [1][2]. It went bankrupt and was merged into the more public-private bits. The lines it laid as a private enterprise remain today. The IRT looked more like the British rail system, with the public lending to the company, which was under public-private management. By mileage, the BRT built the most. By transit volume, the public-private Dual Contractors outperformed the IND, though that was in part due to the latter's late start. It remains that the bulk of the New York City subway system was, by any metric, built under private management and, by mileage, financed with private capital. All that said, I have no illusions about whether private ownership would be possible today. (It is debatable whether it was possible then, given they went bankrupt.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island_Traction_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island_Traction_Company [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_York_City_Subway#The_first_subways https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_York_City_S...
- GuiA 9y ago
  Heh. True in some ways, not in some others. Groceries for example - yes, I can buy chicken at Walmart for much cheaper than I would in the EU, for instance. But the chicken I’d buy in the EU would be of much higher quality. If I want a comparable chicken (not cage raised, not full of hormones, etc), I’ll end up going to Whole Foods or similar upscale store and end up paying roughly the same as I would in the EU.
  - mseebach 9y ago
    Yes, there are different regulations, famously chicken in the EU can't be washed in chlorine as it can in the US. But your average EU supermarket selection is a flavourless, watered up battery chicken. It's not "much higher quality" by any stretch of the imagination.
    - lyschoening 9y ago
      At least watered up chicken has to be labeled in the EU. Battery cages have been banned since 2012.
      - mseebach 9y ago
        Sorry, fair point, it’s not battery chicken then. Not sure what the correct term is, but it’s certainly nor free range organic animals we’re dealing with here.
  - adventured 9y ago
    You can avoid the steroids et al. at most any Walmart at this point. Tyson is completely removing such from their chicken products. You're primarily going to struggle to find free range inexpensively in the US.
- kken 9y ago
  >Groceries Are you serious? Groceries in the US are surprisingly expensive compared to Europe.
  - ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
    ... I have seen countless posts shocked by our price of eggs and beef. Eggs 50c a dozen, ground beef about $2.30-$3 depending on location. It is one of those things that are hard to research effectively, but when I stayed in France for a few months groceries were definitely more expensive.
  - bmelton 9y ago
    According to NationMaster[1], we're the 43rd most expensive. Notables that are more expensive than the U.S. include Switzerland, Norway, New Zealand, Denmark, France, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Japan, Belgium, the UK, Canada, Austria, Italy. Notables with cheaper groceries are Germany, Netherlands, Greece, Spain, Poland, Ukraine. [1] - http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Cost-of-living/Prices-at-markets/Groceries-index http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Cost-of-livin...
    - adventured 9y ago
      And Germany is about to work some of its grocery magic on the US, likely pushing prices down even further, as Lidl invades. Amazon will also likely have a positive effect.
  - refurb 9y ago
    What? I've shopped in the U.K., Spain, Greece, Switzerland and Sweden. The U.K. Was pretty much on par with the US for basic staples. The others were the same or more. Unless your comparing to some boutique grocery in the US. The US is WAY cheaper than Canada.
  - rospaya 9y ago
    I often read frugal tips and tricks on reddit, and it's phenomenal what you can get in the states for little money. That's not possible in a lot of places in Europe.
thatswrong0 9y ago
> supposedly efficient capitalistic market Unfortunately that's not what we have when dealing with regulations, red tape, unions, and somewhat unaccountable government agencies running the show.
- heurist 9y ago
  I don't think it's fair to call out unions/government without calling out large capital investors as well. We wouldn't have suburbs or massive shopping malls without huge real estate investors pumping money into major developments that exist to drain money out of a market. Large developments are a net drain on local economies and produce far less efficient markets than small incremental developments based on organic demand. There's a point where regulation and large capital investments are interlinked to prevent these markets from correcting, but the capital does plenty of damage on its own.
  - rebuilder 9y ago
    IOW, if competition ensures efficient markets, i.e. low profit margins, then money spent on reducing competition is money well spent.
  - closeparen 9y ago
    Since there is broad societal consensus* that capital should not be permitted to intensify urban environments, it had better build suburbs, or we’ll all be homeless. *with a little bit of scrappy opposition emerging in the last few years.
- wnevets 9y ago
  I forgot that Europe is known for its lack of regulations, red tape, unions, and somewhat unaccountable government agencies running the show.
  - thatswrong0 9y ago
    My point was that it's not a "supposedly efficient capitalistic market" that we're dealing with in the U.S. I didn't even mention Europe.
jessedhillon 9y ago
I'm not buying or selling here, but you need to draw the distinction between a system designed to optimize extremes, and one that optimizes the median. If you don't, then you're basically comparing minimum wage to average housing prices, i.e. incomparables. It's up to you to argue which is the better one to optimize, but if you just assume that everyone is on board with median maximization, you're going to be talking past a lot of people.
gwright 9y ago
Too much of a generalization I think. There is clearly something out of whack on public infrastructure projects, which have very little to do with "efficient capitalistic markets". I'm not sure how you get from there to your statement about "local services" not being addressed by the market. It isn't clear what other things you think are broken. Mainly just suggesting that more specificity would clarify your point.
jedrek 9y ago
> Geographic spread is a major macro factor There's already an amazing nationwide public-private transit network: they're called airplanes. But on the local level it's politicians kowtowing to the people who scream bloody murder when anything but heavily subsidized private transportation is incentivized.
cbayram 9y ago
"The US seems to get less of everything for its money than its peers." Exactly my sentiment. However, my take away is there are too many middlemen dealing with middlemen dealing with ... Everyone's gotta get greased with before each blow by the the worker carrying out the physical labor.

heavenlyblue 9y ago

But not petrol.

aeorgnoieang 9y ago

> a supposedly efficient capitalistic market The 'new commanding heights'[1] of the modern U.S. economy are all the least capitalistic markets: education, healthcare, and housing. Nor would I expect "local services" to be much more 'capitalistic' if you're referring to services provided by municipal governments. [1]: [The New Commanding Heights | National Affairs](http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-new-commanding-heights http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-new-c...)

DrScump 9y ago
'new commanding heights'[1] That source is from 2011, in the depths of the recession.

bkohlmann 9y ago

For market based goods, the US does deliver pretty phenomenal, innovative and minimally priced outputs. Groceries, energy, technology, etc. "Local services" are almost always driven by non-market based considerations. Politics, not economics, determines contract awards for public works. It's as far from the market as you can get. And our society receives commensurate "value."

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
Note, too, that the New York City Subway was almost entirely privately funded and built.
- mulmen 9y ago
  How was that possible and why does it not seem to happen today? What changed? Is it still privately owned?
  - sethhochberg 9y ago
    Even back in the "dual system" days when two companies operated the majority of the subway, most of the lines / tunnels were built or financed by the city: https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Chapter_1:_Dual_System_of_Rapid_Transit https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Chapter_1:_Dual_System_of_Rap... Later on, the city built its own third competitor to the two private operators, and eventually ended up purchasing them both. These days the entire system is owned by the state of New York (which took over when the city was out of money during the decline of the 1960/70s). (There is a lot more nuance here... but the highlight is that the city/state often directly or indirectly financed capital construction regardless of whether they were the operator of the system at the time)
    - mulmen 9y ago
      Thanks. This doesn’t sound much different from how most public transit is built.
    - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
      The BRT was formed from the remains of the privately-financed Long Island Traction Company [1][2]. It went bankrupt and was merged into the more public-private bits. The lines it laid as a private enterprise remain today. The IRT looked more like the British rail system, with the public lending to the company, which was under public-private management. By mileage, the BRT built the most. By transit volume, the public-private Dual Contractors outperformed the IND, though that was in part due to the latter's late start. It remains that the bulk of the New York City subway system was, by any metric, built under private management and, by mileage, financed with private capital. All that said, I have no illusions about whether private ownership would be possible today. (It is debatable whether it was possible then, given they went bankrupt.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island_Traction_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island_Traction_Company [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_York_City_Subway#The_first_subways https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_York_City_S...
GuiA 9y ago
Heh. True in some ways, not in some others. Groceries for example - yes, I can buy chicken at Walmart for much cheaper than I would in the EU, for instance. But the chicken I’d buy in the EU would be of much higher quality. If I want a comparable chicken (not cage raised, not full of hormones, etc), I’ll end up going to Whole Foods or similar upscale store and end up paying roughly the same as I would in the EU.
- mseebach 9y ago
  Yes, there are different regulations, famously chicken in the EU can't be washed in chlorine as it can in the US. But your average EU supermarket selection is a flavourless, watered up battery chicken. It's not "much higher quality" by any stretch of the imagination.
  - lyschoening 9y ago
    At least watered up chicken has to be labeled in the EU. Battery cages have been banned since 2012.
    - mseebach 9y ago
      Sorry, fair point, it’s not battery chicken then. Not sure what the correct term is, but it’s certainly nor free range organic animals we’re dealing with here.
- adventured 9y ago
  You can avoid the steroids et al. at most any Walmart at this point. Tyson is completely removing such from their chicken products. You're primarily going to struggle to find free range inexpensively in the US.
kken 9y ago
>Groceries Are you serious? Groceries in the US are surprisingly expensive compared to Europe.
- ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
  ... I have seen countless posts shocked by our price of eggs and beef. Eggs 50c a dozen, ground beef about $2.30-$3 depending on location. It is one of those things that are hard to research effectively, but when I stayed in France for a few months groceries were definitely more expensive.
- bmelton 9y ago
  According to NationMaster[1], we're the 43rd most expensive. Notables that are more expensive than the U.S. include Switzerland, Norway, New Zealand, Denmark, France, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Japan, Belgium, the UK, Canada, Austria, Italy. Notables with cheaper groceries are Germany, Netherlands, Greece, Spain, Poland, Ukraine. [1] - http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Cost-of-living/Prices-at-markets/Groceries-index http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Cost-of-livin...
  - adventured 9y ago
    And Germany is about to work some of its grocery magic on the US, likely pushing prices down even further, as Lidl invades. Amazon will also likely have a positive effect.
- refurb 9y ago
  What? I've shopped in the U.K., Spain, Greece, Switzerland and Sweden. The U.K. Was pretty much on par with the US for basic staples. The others were the same or more. Unless your comparing to some boutique grocery in the US. The US is WAY cheaper than Canada.
- rospaya 9y ago
  I often read frugal tips and tricks on reddit, and it's phenomenal what you can get in the states for little money. That's not possible in a lot of places in Europe.

thatswrong0 9y ago

> supposedly efficient capitalistic market Unfortunately that's not what we have when dealing with regulations, red tape, unions, and somewhat unaccountable government agencies running the show.

heurist 9y ago
I don't think it's fair to call out unions/government without calling out large capital investors as well. We wouldn't have suburbs or massive shopping malls without huge real estate investors pumping money into major developments that exist to drain money out of a market. Large developments are a net drain on local economies and produce far less efficient markets than small incremental developments based on organic demand. There's a point where regulation and large capital investments are interlinked to prevent these markets from correcting, but the capital does plenty of damage on its own.
- rebuilder 9y ago
  IOW, if competition ensures efficient markets, i.e. low profit margins, then money spent on reducing competition is money well spent.
- closeparen 9y ago
  Since there is broad societal consensus* that capital should not be permitted to intensify urban environments, it had better build suburbs, or we’ll all be homeless. *with a little bit of scrappy opposition emerging in the last few years.
wnevets 9y ago
I forgot that Europe is known for its lack of regulations, red tape, unions, and somewhat unaccountable government agencies running the show.
- thatswrong0 9y ago
  My point was that it's not a "supposedly efficient capitalistic market" that we're dealing with in the U.S. I didn't even mention Europe.

jessedhillon 9y ago

I'm not buying or selling here, but you need to draw the distinction between a system designed to optimize extremes, and one that optimizes the median. If you don't, then you're basically comparing minimum wage to average housing prices, i.e. incomparables. It's up to you to argue which is the better one to optimize, but if you just assume that everyone is on board with median maximization, you're going to be talking past a lot of people.

gwright 9y ago

Too much of a generalization I think. There is clearly something out of whack on public infrastructure projects, which have very little to do with "efficient capitalistic markets". I'm not sure how you get from there to your statement about "local services" not being addressed by the market. It isn't clear what other things you think are broken. Mainly just suggesting that more specificity would clarify your point.

jedrek 9y ago

> Geographic spread is a major macro factor There's already an amazing nationwide public-private transit network: they're called airplanes. But on the local level it's politicians kowtowing to the people who scream bloody murder when anything but heavily subsidized private transportation is incentivized.

cbayram 9y ago

"The US seems to get less of everything for its money than its peers." Exactly my sentiment. However, my take away is there are too many middlemen dealing with middlemen dealing with ... Everyone's gotta get greased with before each blow by the the worker carrying out the physical labor.