4 ms·

They do, if they detect tampering to the currency safe. However I'm not sure if they are really equipped to detect tampering to electronics.

by jutaz 9y ago

sitkack 9y ago
There are easily multiple locks that could be put in place internally. Encrypt the signal from the host to cash dispenser, have a debugger process that is connected to the host process that also stores the encryption keys and or talks to an HSM. Mitigates tampering of a live system, makes flashing new firmware problematic. Physically limit the cash dispenser from outputting k bills over n seconds. Have those limits be session based, again signaled by main host process. Would require a full login/logout cycle for k bills. Most likely, the systems are left wide open internally to ease development and mask bugs. My ending blanket statement is that finance people know how to be cheap, they can optimize along one axis, replacing a 5$ with a 2$ part, but the really good ones optimize the whole system over a long time horizon.
- bardworx 9y ago
  Your comment is coming from a good place but it’s rooted in ignorance. Most ATM machines are made by NCR and not financial institutions. Majority are also quite old (runnning windows XP old). NCR is focused on profits not security, even though they sell POS (point of sale), ATM machines, and airport kiosks. From my personal dealings with NCR, I can confirm that they care very little for security, regardless of what their corporate line. To put this in perspective: if you go to a grocery store, restaurant, or quick service (fast food) establishment and use a credit card then your full account number, name, and exp is recorded in their system. This information is accessible by anyone with store level admin (not windows admin, but think a manager with manager card). This violates PCI but hey, fuck PCI, hard sending the system takes resources and who wants to do that? On HN, folks keep talking about security and other such nonsense, however, anyone who has seen the other side isn’t very optimistic. Between ease of use, profit margins, and no pushback on insecure systems, all loses are just write offs.
  - imglorp 9y ago
    On a less concrete note, my bank switched from Diebold to NCR and the difference is very apparent to the ATM user. The design is overall clean and bright, and it's much faster. The Diebold has long UI pauses for no apparent reason where the NCR seems not.
  - ak47-1984 9y ago
    As one of the engineers initially responsible for achieving PCI compliance on these ATMs, this isn’t strictly true - of course it needs to know your account info, but it’s sent to your bank - it’s not stored on the machine at all - certain digits of your card number are written to a paper log but it’s never written in full - can’t speak for POS machines, but would imagine it’s the same
    - bardworx 9y ago
      Unfortunately, POS is not the same. I’ve worked with NCR (Aloha) POS for 5 years. Can’t speak for ATM machines. Plain text ... and before two years ago, they also had regional master passwords. As in one password for all systems sold by a particular reseller.
  - prklmn 9y ago
    Their losses are just write offs...until they aren't, and something major happens. Maybe it will take a company completely going out of business due to poor security standards for others to wake up.
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      Cough. Equifax.
- lawl 9y ago
  They should probably hire some people from microsoft's xbox department, or sony's playstation department. A lot of money has gone into locking this hardware down, and I think for the xbox 360, which was released in 2005(!) there is still only one hack they couldn't solve with a software update, and that's soldering to the CPU and glitching it on a specific compare instruction. I would bet, this "sophisticated malware" is a lot more trivial than glitching the CPU on one specific intruction and having to take a soldering iron to the ATM, then fiddling trying to get the timing exactly right. Building a chain of trust and authenticate commands to the cash dispenser really shouldn't be an issue. Really, just put a fucking xbox in these ATMs. Lots of people attacking those while being able to do whatever they want to the hardware with limited to no success. (I don't think anyone has managed to open up the xbox one?)
  - kabdib 9y ago
    Microsoft and Apple have put a lot of thought into the security architectures of their consumer hardware. I've made this exact argument before -- just put the ATM app into a console title. It's the most secure hunk of readily available computing hardware, right off the shelf at Target. But breaches happen, and lead to lawsuits, and I can just imagine trying to impress a jury about the security of your ATM while the other side cracks jokes about gold coins in Super Mario and speculates about your low Halo ranking.
  - Cyph0n 9y ago
    Another field where security is taken very seriously is cable TV boxes. You'd be surprised how much work goes into securing them.
  - ilikeATMs 9y ago
    The problem with hardware lockdown is that at the end of the day x-boxes and PlayStations are only interacting with a screen to display media. ATMs on the other hand are designed to interact with physical hardware that sucks money up and spits it out. Locking down the operating system is easy, but if the hardware is controlled by serial interfaces then you've got a weak point there unless the serial interfaces are encrypted (spoiler, they are not!). To encrypt them you'd need to put something at the OS side and something at the hardware (pneumatics/motors) side and ensure they aren't accessible (ie, located inside the safe part of the ATM). Its not impossible to do, but I somehow doubt they'll do it anyway.

They do, if they detect tampering to the currency safe. However I'm not sure if they are really equipped to detect tampering to electronics.

by jutaz 9y ago

They do, if they detect tampering to the currency safe. However I'm not sure if they are really equipped to detect tampering to electronics.

sitkack 9y ago

There are easily multiple locks that could be put in place internally. Encrypt the signal from the host to cash dispenser, have a debugger process that is connected to the host process that also stores the encryption keys and or talks to an HSM. Mitigates tampering of a live system, makes flashing new firmware problematic. Physically limit the cash dispenser from outputting k bills over n seconds. Have those limits be session based, again signaled by main host process. Would require a full login/logout cycle for k bills. Most likely, the systems are left wide open internally to ease development and mask bugs. My ending blanket statement is that finance people know how to be cheap, they can optimize along one axis, replacing a 5$ with a 2$ part, but the really good ones optimize the whole system over a long time horizon.

bardworx 9y ago
Your comment is coming from a good place but it’s rooted in ignorance. Most ATM machines are made by NCR and not financial institutions. Majority are also quite old (runnning windows XP old). NCR is focused on profits not security, even though they sell POS (point of sale), ATM machines, and airport kiosks. From my personal dealings with NCR, I can confirm that they care very little for security, regardless of what their corporate line. To put this in perspective: if you go to a grocery store, restaurant, or quick service (fast food) establishment and use a credit card then your full account number, name, and exp is recorded in their system. This information is accessible by anyone with store level admin (not windows admin, but think a manager with manager card). This violates PCI but hey, fuck PCI, hard sending the system takes resources and who wants to do that? On HN, folks keep talking about security and other such nonsense, however, anyone who has seen the other side isn’t very optimistic. Between ease of use, profit margins, and no pushback on insecure systems, all loses are just write offs.
- imglorp 9y ago
  On a less concrete note, my bank switched from Diebold to NCR and the difference is very apparent to the ATM user. The design is overall clean and bright, and it's much faster. The Diebold has long UI pauses for no apparent reason where the NCR seems not.
- ak47-1984 9y ago
  As one of the engineers initially responsible for achieving PCI compliance on these ATMs, this isn’t strictly true - of course it needs to know your account info, but it’s sent to your bank - it’s not stored on the machine at all - certain digits of your card number are written to a paper log but it’s never written in full - can’t speak for POS machines, but would imagine it’s the same
  - bardworx 9y ago
    Unfortunately, POS is not the same. I’ve worked with NCR (Aloha) POS for 5 years. Can’t speak for ATM machines. Plain text ... and before two years ago, they also had regional master passwords. As in one password for all systems sold by a particular reseller.
- prklmn 9y ago
  Their losses are just write offs...until they aren't, and something major happens. Maybe it will take a company completely going out of business due to poor security standards for others to wake up.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Cough. Equifax.
lawl 9y ago
They should probably hire some people from microsoft's xbox department, or sony's playstation department. A lot of money has gone into locking this hardware down, and I think for the xbox 360, which was released in 2005(!) there is still only one hack they couldn't solve with a software update, and that's soldering to the CPU and glitching it on a specific compare instruction. I would bet, this "sophisticated malware" is a lot more trivial than glitching the CPU on one specific intruction and having to take a soldering iron to the ATM, then fiddling trying to get the timing exactly right. Building a chain of trust and authenticate commands to the cash dispenser really shouldn't be an issue. Really, just put a fucking xbox in these ATMs. Lots of people attacking those while being able to do whatever they want to the hardware with limited to no success. (I don't think anyone has managed to open up the xbox one?)
- kabdib 9y ago
  Microsoft and Apple have put a lot of thought into the security architectures of their consumer hardware. I've made this exact argument before -- just put the ATM app into a console title. It's the most secure hunk of readily available computing hardware, right off the shelf at Target. But breaches happen, and lead to lawsuits, and I can just imagine trying to impress a jury about the security of your ATM while the other side cracks jokes about gold coins in Super Mario and speculates about your low Halo ranking.
- Cyph0n 9y ago
  Another field where security is taken very seriously is cable TV boxes. You'd be surprised how much work goes into securing them.
- ilikeATMs 9y ago
  The problem with hardware lockdown is that at the end of the day x-boxes and PlayStations are only interacting with a screen to display media. ATMs on the other hand are designed to interact with physical hardware that sucks money up and spits it out. Locking down the operating system is easy, but if the hardware is controlled by serial interfaces then you've got a weak point there unless the serial interfaces are encrypted (spoiler, they are not!). To encrypt them you'd need to put something at the OS side and something at the hardware (pneumatics/motors) side and ensure they aren't accessible (ie, located inside the safe part of the ATM). Its not impossible to do, but I somehow doubt they'll do it anyway.