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Indeed, I certainly noticed this disparity. My background is in Engineering (Robotics) and I am very capable of writing full fledged software - from FreeRTOS/AR

Indeed, I certainly noticed this disparity. My background is in Engineering (Robotics) and I am very capable of writing full fledged software - from FreeRTOS/ARM Cortex apps for embedded robotics to your typical engineering scripting (Matlab, Python). I've worked on a few major ROS projects and have an excellent grasp of C/C++. I find this "Education degree" based pay bias a little bit absurd. Of course, there is the demand/supply thing that should settle the equilibrium in a fluid job market -- but the reality is that non-software engineers that can also write software are underpaid. There is equal or more complexity in dealing with the interface of hardware and software (Robotics) as with any other "pure" software development task. I would love to hear more from the software folks on HN. I think pay should be based on the specific job role not Engineering degree. Edit: removed personally identifiable information.

zpatel 9y ago
I wonder why people get a masters in mechanical engineering or other field and code webapps or services just because they get a good job offer ? A software / compute engineer would never be able to get a mechanical or civil engineering job without appropriate degrees or certs in the field.
- shagie 9y ago
  Consider the "self taught - no college degree" realm of the software industry. Its rather large. Clearly, no degree is required. On the other hand, here is someone who has completed a degree and gone beyond. Clearly they have the ability to learn new material. Furthermore, they attained a proficiency at least that of the self taught - no degree segment mentioned above. Now, given a "you can make $150k/year as a software developer" vs "you can make $100k/year as a ME" there's something to be considered. Additionally, if thats instead a "you can make $70k/year as a junior engineer getting the necessary time to become a licensed engineer for the next few years" ... well, there are student loans to be paid off.
  - busterarm 9y ago
    It certainly makes sense, and if someone has the programming skills, I suggest that they do it. There is a problem on the hiring end of the software market though where I get flooded with resumes from engineers and data scientists and interviewing them for a software job seems to be a complete crapshoot. Literally the best and worst candidates that we get through. We get some folks with serious traditional engineering chops who can't code (as in solve a problem with software) their way out of a paper bag. The self-taught developer and CS grad pools seem to be far more consistent, in my experience. I get through less of the very worst people and those are easier to filter in this pool.
    - shagie 9y ago
      Something to consider about many scientific programming domains - they don't do much in the way of conditionals. Glance at the code for FFT - https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Fast_Fourier_transform https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Fast_Fourier_transform (especially FORTRAN for the engineer and MATLAB for the data scientist). This is the domain that many work in. Throw a problem at people who haven't gone outside the implementation of mathematical formulas that requires using conditionals as part of the design and there may be a bit more difficulty. This could account for the "worst candidates" that you've experienced.
      - busterarm 9y ago
        They're the ones applying for experienced full stack developer positions...also we're not doing gotcha-style whiteboarding. It's literally 'take some basic thing and break down how it works' -- we don't even require it to be something in code. Some guy came in and gave us a data model for a flush toilet and nailed it. If the self-taught/bootcamp junior programmer can nail it while you can't and are asking for twice+ as much money, how do I justify hiring you?
  - zpatel 9y ago
    I am fine with people having no degree and learning computer programming , but do not understand why people get masters in mechanical or electrical engineering and then enter programming web apps..if its all about money why do they waste the mechanical/civil engineering seat at the university ? If argument is that they need to pay loans, then computer degrees should also be allowed to learn on the job and do mechanical/civil stuff ?
Qworg 9y ago
Another (mostly ex) Robotics guy here - I have a BSEE and a MSCS. If possible, I'd focus more on the coding side of your capabilities versus the mechanical side - there's just far more upside. People tend to pigeonhole MEs way more than CS (and pay them less). You'll get a bump though for being able to turn a wrench - it definitely opens doors. What have you been putting yourself on the market as?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
nicoburns 9y ago
I don't think this has anything to do with degree vs no degree. I see software engineers without degrees being paid just as well. I think it's just an incredible demand for software devs from companies with ridoculous amounts of money pushing up salaries. Note that this is where it becomes clear that wealth inequality is important. If a few organisations have outsized amounts of wealth then it pushes up prices for everyone.
- closeparen 9y ago
  Ah yes, ridiculous salaries enabling ridiculous extravagances like getting your own tiny apartment before 40. The most wildly overpaid Silicon Valley engineers have the purchasing power of entry-level accountants anywhere else in the country.
pkaye 9y ago
Tesla is known to underpay regardless of what your background is. There are many companies that will pay you based on your demonstrated skills rather than degree. Most will mention a degree preference but if you can code well enough then you have a good chance.
rhodysurf 9y ago
I am an “Ocean Engineer” by degree but I was strictly a robotics and embedded systems guy in college. I have been a software engineer since graduation though and now I just market myself as a software engineer and get plenty of job offers. No one cares what your degree is as long you know how to code at a professional level.

zpatel 9y ago

I wonder why people get a masters in mechanical engineering or other field and code webapps or services just because they get a good job offer ? A software / compute engineer would never be able to get a mechanical or civil engineering job without appropriate degrees or certs in the field.

shagie 9y ago
Consider the "self taught - no college degree" realm of the software industry. Its rather large. Clearly, no degree is required. On the other hand, here is someone who has completed a degree and gone beyond. Clearly they have the ability to learn new material. Furthermore, they attained a proficiency at least that of the self taught - no degree segment mentioned above. Now, given a "you can make $150k/year as a software developer" vs "you can make $100k/year as a ME" there's something to be considered. Additionally, if thats instead a "you can make $70k/year as a junior engineer getting the necessary time to become a licensed engineer for the next few years" ... well, there are student loans to be paid off.
- busterarm 9y ago
  It certainly makes sense, and if someone has the programming skills, I suggest that they do it. There is a problem on the hiring end of the software market though where I get flooded with resumes from engineers and data scientists and interviewing them for a software job seems to be a complete crapshoot. Literally the best and worst candidates that we get through. We get some folks with serious traditional engineering chops who can't code (as in solve a problem with software) their way out of a paper bag. The self-taught developer and CS grad pools seem to be far more consistent, in my experience. I get through less of the very worst people and those are easier to filter in this pool.
  - shagie 9y ago
    Something to consider about many scientific programming domains - they don't do much in the way of conditionals. Glance at the code for FFT - https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Fast_Fourier_transform https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Fast_Fourier_transform (especially FORTRAN for the engineer and MATLAB for the data scientist). This is the domain that many work in. Throw a problem at people who haven't gone outside the implementation of mathematical formulas that requires using conditionals as part of the design and there may be a bit more difficulty. This could account for the "worst candidates" that you've experienced.
    - busterarm 9y ago
      They're the ones applying for experienced full stack developer positions...also we're not doing gotcha-style whiteboarding. It's literally 'take some basic thing and break down how it works' -- we don't even require it to be something in code. Some guy came in and gave us a data model for a flush toilet and nailed it. If the self-taught/bootcamp junior programmer can nail it while you can't and are asking for twice+ as much money, how do I justify hiring you?
- zpatel 9y ago
  I am fine with people having no degree and learning computer programming , but do not understand why people get masters in mechanical or electrical engineering and then enter programming web apps..if its all about money why do they waste the mechanical/civil engineering seat at the university ? If argument is that they need to pay loans, then computer degrees should also be allowed to learn on the job and do mechanical/civil stuff ?

Qworg 9y ago

Another (mostly ex) Robotics guy here - I have a BSEE and a MSCS. If possible, I'd focus more on the coding side of your capabilities versus the mechanical side - there's just far more upside. People tend to pigeonhole MEs way more than CS (and pay them less). You'll get a bump though for being able to turn a wrench - it definitely opens doors. What have you been putting yourself on the market as?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

nicoburns 9y ago

I don't think this has anything to do with degree vs no degree. I see software engineers without degrees being paid just as well. I think it's just an incredible demand for software devs from companies with ridoculous amounts of money pushing up salaries. Note that this is where it becomes clear that wealth inequality is important. If a few organisations have outsized amounts of wealth then it pushes up prices for everyone.

closeparen 9y ago
Ah yes, ridiculous salaries enabling ridiculous extravagances like getting your own tiny apartment before 40. The most wildly overpaid Silicon Valley engineers have the purchasing power of entry-level accountants anywhere else in the country.

pkaye 9y ago

Tesla is known to underpay regardless of what your background is. There are many companies that will pay you based on your demonstrated skills rather than degree. Most will mention a degree preference but if you can code well enough then you have a good chance.

rhodysurf 9y ago

I am an “Ocean Engineer” by degree but I was strictly a robotics and embedded systems guy in college. I have been a software engineer since graduation though and now I just market myself as a software engineer and get plenty of job offers. No one cares what your degree is as long you know how to code at a professional level.