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This sounds a bit like a conflation between Product Managers and Project Management. Both roles can juggle as needed on the size of the organization, but I ima

This sounds a bit like a conflation between Product Managers and Project Management. Both roles can juggle as needed on the size of the organization, but I imagine ProdMan positions to be interfacing with consumers needs and the trends and gathering feedback on new and existing lines of work. I think one critical skill a ProdMon is to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff, and prioritizing actually solutions to people's problems and not just ticking down feature lost from some analyst who's like 6 steps away from the day to day pain of the people. A million small evolutions will change the world and take everyone by surprise :)

dozzie 9y ago
> This sounds a bit like a conflation between Product Managers and Project Management. And what's the significant difference between these two titles? I can invent half a dozen more pro-something manager titles by myself, which doesn't mean they will be in any way useful.
- BerislavLopac 9y ago
  In a nutshell, a project manager is the one responsible for managing time and resources on a project. On the other hand, a product manager is responsible for features of a product, especially when they should be introduced and what the team should focus on. Basically, a product manager needs to balance between different stakeholders of a product -- usually the users, development team, marketing and sales, although that list will be different for each product -- and take responsible for any decisions about the product development.
  - dozzie 9y ago
    And how exactly does this "managing time and resources on a project" look like if a project manager according to such definition doesn't decide what needs to be done? What such project manager actually can do?
    - BerislavLopac 9y ago
      Because the project manager handles how things are to be done. In software, these differences are getting lost because of the specific features of the field, but the project manager role is much older, and works fine with projects where specifications are defined far ahead and independently of their fulfilment -- like for example building a bridge.
    - natecavanaugh 9y ago
      I would say that depends on the power and trust that the org puts into that role, as well as how the company is structured. Speaking from my own anecdotal experience, at my job, we have a spaghetti like org structure, where you may belong to one specific group and do your actual work with a different team. It's structured pretty similarly to Spotify, at least on the engineering side. So if a person on my team is working for or with a different department or team, and the project manager let's me know they're not working out, it's within my discretion to move them off the team and find a better fit, or rarely, if it's a repeated problem and they cause more havoc than order, to let them go. I like to think it allows a layer of protection for both the employee and the team, as not everyone will always work on every team, but they may be able to bring real value to the company as a whole.
- dagw 9y ago
  And what's the significant difference between these two titles? I see two difference. First of all not all projects result in products, in which case you don't need a product manager. Secondly I'd say a product is often made up by combining several projects (or at least products that need a separate product manager) and it's the product managers job to manage the project managers. It's the product managers job to work out how the different projects should interact and be combined into a unified product, decide which projects to priorities for the next release and which to scrap as well as deciding which projects need to be started up tomorrow so that we can have that killer feature we want in 18 month, set release deadlines (after getting input on all the project deadlines) etc. They should also work with how to market and sell the product and to whom, as well as taking in customer feedback.
  - dozzie 9y ago
    > [P]roduct is often made up by combining several projects [...] and it's the product managers job to manage the project managers. So if a product is split, it's like a project manager with a team composed of project managers? Do I get that right? And when a product is made of a single project, then what's the difference between product manager and project manager? What exactly can do one that is not the job of the other?
    - dagw 9y ago
      So if a product is split, it's like a project manager with a team composed of project managers? Do I get that right? For a big enough project, I guess. MS Office probably has product managers that manage the product managers for each component of Office. But honestly I'm just guessing at that. when a product is made of a single project, then what's the difference between product manager and project manager? In those cases you won't need/have two roles.
- jacques_chester 9y ago
  By way of extreme stereotypes, accepting blurriness in the middle: Project management usually takes some fixed bundle of work and aims to ensure it is within scope, on time, on budget, to acceptable quality. The typical focus is to optimise for efficiency. If it is more efficient to build concrete pylons and then sling cables, that's what happens. Product management tends to focus on what should be built and in what order. There is less focus on execution and more on understanding what the problem is -- or whether there is a problem. The typical focus is to optimise for value. If more user or business value comes from throwing a rope bridge, followed by a single lane suspension bridge, followed by a concrete bridge, that's the order the product manager will likely pick, even if it costs more and takes longer to get to the final stage. Product management is more typical in software, where the ability to quickly iterate on or replace a product is available. Project management is more typical of problems where the cost of change is very high (construction, civil works, spaceflight etc), creating a strong incentive to do the thing once.
  - dozzie 9y ago
    > Project management usually takes some fixed bundle of work and aims to ensure it is within scope, on time, on budget, to acceptable quality. And project manager does that by what means? What useful things can a project manager do to achieve these goals? Barring telling the team how to do their work (micromanagement) and reordering project goals (this is supposed to be product manager's job).
    - rahimnathwani 9y ago
      Your comment suggests that all work involved in delivering something is either (i) setting and prioritising goals, or (ii) doing the work to achieve those goals. But there are other things that a good project manager can do in some situations, particularly around driving consensus around coordination between different teams when things are changing a lot, and figuring out ways that re-allocating resources can unblock other teams, and so deliver the project earlier overall. BUT many people with the job title 'project manager' aren't really doing those things, either because those things don't need doing in the organization where they work, or because they lack the skills/drive to do them. Even if you haven't worked in a project that required a project manager, or met a good project manager, it doesn't mean these things don't exist. (I'm not a project manager btw, and the things a project manager needs to do are not among my favourite tasks, although I do them when required.)
- rahimnathwani 9y ago
  Product management is about 'what' and 'why'. Project management is about 'how', 'when' and 'who'.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
mikekchar 9y ago
> This sounds a bit like a conflation between Product Managers and Project Management. It definitely is :-) I admit that I make no distinction between the two of them. I've never worked in a company with both titles and whichever title they've held, they've done the same job. There are many other titles as well (especially in the UK). As the original article implied many people in these roles get the mistaken impression that they should be doing marketing, sales, or sitting in meeting rooms. However, the role is really necessary and it is a very difficult job so I hope that over time it attracts people interested in doing the job rather that riding the elevator to the top of the company.

dozzie 9y ago

> This sounds a bit like a conflation between Product Managers and Project Management. And what's the significant difference between these two titles? I can invent half a dozen more pro-something manager titles by myself, which doesn't mean they will be in any way useful.

BerislavLopac 9y ago
In a nutshell, a project manager is the one responsible for managing time and resources on a project. On the other hand, a product manager is responsible for features of a product, especially when they should be introduced and what the team should focus on. Basically, a product manager needs to balance between different stakeholders of a product -- usually the users, development team, marketing and sales, although that list will be different for each product -- and take responsible for any decisions about the product development.
- dozzie 9y ago
  And how exactly does this "managing time and resources on a project" look like if a project manager according to such definition doesn't decide what needs to be done? What such project manager actually can do?
  - BerislavLopac 9y ago
    Because the project manager handles how things are to be done. In software, these differences are getting lost because of the specific features of the field, but the project manager role is much older, and works fine with projects where specifications are defined far ahead and independently of their fulfilment -- like for example building a bridge.
  - natecavanaugh 9y ago
    I would say that depends on the power and trust that the org puts into that role, as well as how the company is structured. Speaking from my own anecdotal experience, at my job, we have a spaghetti like org structure, where you may belong to one specific group and do your actual work with a different team. It's structured pretty similarly to Spotify, at least on the engineering side. So if a person on my team is working for or with a different department or team, and the project manager let's me know they're not working out, it's within my discretion to move them off the team and find a better fit, or rarely, if it's a repeated problem and they cause more havoc than order, to let them go. I like to think it allows a layer of protection for both the employee and the team, as not everyone will always work on every team, but they may be able to bring real value to the company as a whole.
dagw 9y ago
And what's the significant difference between these two titles? I see two difference. First of all not all projects result in products, in which case you don't need a product manager. Secondly I'd say a product is often made up by combining several projects (or at least products that need a separate product manager) and it's the product managers job to manage the project managers. It's the product managers job to work out how the different projects should interact and be combined into a unified product, decide which projects to priorities for the next release and which to scrap as well as deciding which projects need to be started up tomorrow so that we can have that killer feature we want in 18 month, set release deadlines (after getting input on all the project deadlines) etc. They should also work with how to market and sell the product and to whom, as well as taking in customer feedback.
- dozzie 9y ago
  > [P]roduct is often made up by combining several projects [...] and it's the product managers job to manage the project managers. So if a product is split, it's like a project manager with a team composed of project managers? Do I get that right? And when a product is made of a single project, then what's the difference between product manager and project manager? What exactly can do one that is not the job of the other?
  - dagw 9y ago
    So if a product is split, it's like a project manager with a team composed of project managers? Do I get that right? For a big enough project, I guess. MS Office probably has product managers that manage the product managers for each component of Office. But honestly I'm just guessing at that. when a product is made of a single project, then what's the difference between product manager and project manager? In those cases you won't need/have two roles.
jacques_chester 9y ago
By way of extreme stereotypes, accepting blurriness in the middle: Project management usually takes some fixed bundle of work and aims to ensure it is within scope, on time, on budget, to acceptable quality. The typical focus is to optimise for efficiency. If it is more efficient to build concrete pylons and then sling cables, that's what happens. Product management tends to focus on what should be built and in what order. There is less focus on execution and more on understanding what the problem is -- or whether there is a problem. The typical focus is to optimise for value. If more user or business value comes from throwing a rope bridge, followed by a single lane suspension bridge, followed by a concrete bridge, that's the order the product manager will likely pick, even if it costs more and takes longer to get to the final stage. Product management is more typical in software, where the ability to quickly iterate on or replace a product is available. Project management is more typical of problems where the cost of change is very high (construction, civil works, spaceflight etc), creating a strong incentive to do the thing once.
- dozzie 9y ago
  > Project management usually takes some fixed bundle of work and aims to ensure it is within scope, on time, on budget, to acceptable quality. And project manager does that by what means? What useful things can a project manager do to achieve these goals? Barring telling the team how to do their work (micromanagement) and reordering project goals (this is supposed to be product manager's job).
  - rahimnathwani 9y ago
    Your comment suggests that all work involved in delivering something is either (i) setting and prioritising goals, or (ii) doing the work to achieve those goals. But there are other things that a good project manager can do in some situations, particularly around driving consensus around coordination between different teams when things are changing a lot, and figuring out ways that re-allocating resources can unblock other teams, and so deliver the project earlier overall. BUT many people with the job title 'project manager' aren't really doing those things, either because those things don't need doing in the organization where they work, or because they lack the skills/drive to do them. Even if you haven't worked in a project that required a project manager, or met a good project manager, it doesn't mean these things don't exist. (I'm not a project manager btw, and the things a project manager needs to do are not among my favourite tasks, although I do them when required.)
rahimnathwani 9y ago
Product management is about 'what' and 'why'. Project management is about 'how', 'when' and 'who'.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

mikekchar 9y ago

> This sounds a bit like a conflation between Product Managers and Project Management. It definitely is :-) I admit that I make no distinction between the two of them. I've never worked in a company with both titles and whichever title they've held, they've done the same job. There are many other titles as well (especially in the UK). As the original article implied many people in these roles get the mistaken impression that they should be doing marketing, sales, or sitting in meeting rooms. However, the role is really necessary and it is a very difficult job so I hope that over time it attracts people interested in doing the job rather that riding the elevator to the top of the company.