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Am I missing something? They do have a refund policy: http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds Although that p

Am I missing something? They do have a refund policy: http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds Although that policy is fairly recent - I wouldn't be surpised that this case predates the policy.

loeg 9y ago
It's fairly draconian and may not meet Australian standards: > if the request is made within fourteen days of purchase, and the title has been played for less than two hours
- pfisch 9y ago
  The refund rate on steam is like 10-20%. I'm sorry but that really only makes sense if people are using it as a demo/abusing it. The products certainly aren't defective at that rate.
  - Operyl 9y ago
    With the amount of asset flips and flat out shit on the market, I wouldn’t be surprised if the high refund rate is within reason to some degree.
    - pfisch 9y ago
      I am not talking about those "games". I manage like 60 real games on Steam, many of which have review scores between 80-95. These are real games that definitely are not defective on 10-20% of pcs. Like this one: http://store.steampowered.com/app/263980/Out_There_Somewhere/ http://store.steampowered.com/app/263980/Out_There_Somewhere... And this one: http://store.steampowered.com/app/300380/Road_Redemption/ http://store.steampowered.com/app/300380/Road_Redemption/
  - loeg 9y ago
    I don't see anything wrong with demoing something and returning it if it isn't for you (especially in this sphere, where returns incur virtually no cost to the vendor). This is part of the standard business model for most retail stores.
    - pfisch 9y ago
      Well you certainly can't return other similar media products in this way. I'm not even saying it is wrong necessarily, but in a system that allows around 90%+ of returns to have nothing to do with the product being defective I am just confused why people are saying the policy is draconian. Also valve has stated specifically that the return system is not meant to be used as a demo, even though it is very clear that everyone is. I mean does amazon allow you to return movies after watching them for 2 hours?
      - loeg 9y ago
        > Well you certainly can't return other similar media products in this way. Counterpoint: Amazon offers ebook returns. Barnes and Noble offers audiobook returns. It's not wholly true that media products cannot be returned to other sellers. > I am just confused why people are saying the policy is draconian. Very short return window. I think you're looking at this backwards. "If only Steam would prevent returns, I would keep 10% more sales!" No, if Steam prevented returns, you would never have had those sales in the first place.
        pfisch 9y ago
        >I think you're looking at this backwards. "If only Steam would prevent returns, I would keep 10% more sales!" No, if Steam prevented returns, you would never have had those sales in the first place. I never said that. Honestly I'm not sure what I think about it, but I'm certain that it helps valve more than it does developers. Those people will end up spending the money on some game so valve wins either way. Also this policy makes it harder for devs to sell steam keys so they don't lose 30% to steam, because steam keys are not refundable. 14 days is really not very short. Also returning an ebook only has a 7 day return window.
        imtringued 9y ago
        The australian refund policy covers defects and software incompatibility. Steams software policy covers anything within 2 hours of playtime or up to 14 days. pfisch claims that the refund rate is higher than the defect rate. In other words the steam refund policy is less draconian than the australian refund policy. Refunds make customers less risk averse. They are more prone to buying on impulse to try something new. Good game developers like pfisch profit off of the impulse buys while bad developers will see high refund rates even from non impulsive customers. Overall it's a win win situation.
- fenomas 9y ago
  Per that wording, it seems like Valve's policy is both stronger and weaker than the Australian standards, isn't it? E.g. if a game clearly specifies that it's Mac only, and you buy it but only have a PC, AFAICT Valve will give you a refund even though Australian standards wouldn't require it. Ditto if you buy the game and realize you'd already bought it elsewhere, etc. It sounds like it's only in the narrow case where the game, say, claims to support Mac but doesn't, that Valve's policy becomes weaker than the Australian standards. Or am I missing something? (Note this is all referring to Valve's current policy - I understand it wasn't in effect when the ACCC case started.)
FRex 9y ago
The refunds came (I think) in 2015. The original case was in 2014 (as said in the article).
mezzode 9y ago
I always thought they implemented refunds as a result of this case
exodust 9y ago
The case does indeed predate the current policy. Actually Steam refund policy now goes beyond what Australian law requires. That is, you can refund a game simply because you change your mind (and have played less than 2 hours of the game). Australian law does not specify change of mind as a reason for refund.

loeg 9y ago

It's fairly draconian and may not meet Australian standards: > if the request is made within fourteen days of purchase, and the title has been played for less than two hours

pfisch 9y ago
The refund rate on steam is like 10-20%. I'm sorry but that really only makes sense if people are using it as a demo/abusing it. The products certainly aren't defective at that rate.
- Operyl 9y ago
  With the amount of asset flips and flat out shit on the market, I wouldn’t be surprised if the high refund rate is within reason to some degree.
  - pfisch 9y ago
    I am not talking about those "games". I manage like 60 real games on Steam, many of which have review scores between 80-95. These are real games that definitely are not defective on 10-20% of pcs. Like this one: http://store.steampowered.com/app/263980/Out_There_Somewhere/ http://store.steampowered.com/app/263980/Out_There_Somewhere... And this one: http://store.steampowered.com/app/300380/Road_Redemption/ http://store.steampowered.com/app/300380/Road_Redemption/
- loeg 9y ago
  I don't see anything wrong with demoing something and returning it if it isn't for you (especially in this sphere, where returns incur virtually no cost to the vendor). This is part of the standard business model for most retail stores.
  - pfisch 9y ago
    Well you certainly can't return other similar media products in this way. I'm not even saying it is wrong necessarily, but in a system that allows around 90%+ of returns to have nothing to do with the product being defective I am just confused why people are saying the policy is draconian. Also valve has stated specifically that the return system is not meant to be used as a demo, even though it is very clear that everyone is. I mean does amazon allow you to return movies after watching them for 2 hours?
    - loeg 9y ago
      > Well you certainly can't return other similar media products in this way. Counterpoint: Amazon offers ebook returns. Barnes and Noble offers audiobook returns. It's not wholly true that media products cannot be returned to other sellers. > I am just confused why people are saying the policy is draconian. Very short return window. I think you're looking at this backwards. "If only Steam would prevent returns, I would keep 10% more sales!" No, if Steam prevented returns, you would never have had those sales in the first place.
      - pfisch 9y ago
        >I think you're looking at this backwards. "If only Steam would prevent returns, I would keep 10% more sales!" No, if Steam prevented returns, you would never have had those sales in the first place. I never said that. Honestly I'm not sure what I think about it, but I'm certain that it helps valve more than it does developers. Those people will end up spending the money on some game so valve wins either way. Also this policy makes it harder for devs to sell steam keys so they don't lose 30% to steam, because steam keys are not refundable. 14 days is really not very short. Also returning an ebook only has a 7 day return window.
      - imtringued 9y ago
        The australian refund policy covers defects and software incompatibility. Steams software policy covers anything within 2 hours of playtime or up to 14 days. pfisch claims that the refund rate is higher than the defect rate. In other words the steam refund policy is less draconian than the australian refund policy. Refunds make customers less risk averse. They are more prone to buying on impulse to try something new. Good game developers like pfisch profit off of the impulse buys while bad developers will see high refund rates even from non impulsive customers. Overall it's a win win situation.
fenomas 9y ago
Per that wording, it seems like Valve's policy is both stronger and weaker than the Australian standards, isn't it? E.g. if a game clearly specifies that it's Mac only, and you buy it but only have a PC, AFAICT Valve will give you a refund even though Australian standards wouldn't require it. Ditto if you buy the game and realize you'd already bought it elsewhere, etc. It sounds like it's only in the narrow case where the game, say, claims to support Mac but doesn't, that Valve's policy becomes weaker than the Australian standards. Or am I missing something? (Note this is all referring to Valve's current policy - I understand it wasn't in effect when the ACCC case started.)

FRex 9y ago

The refunds came (I think) in 2015. The original case was in 2014 (as said in the article).

mezzode 9y ago

I always thought they implemented refunds as a result of this case

exodust 9y ago

The case does indeed predate the current policy. Actually Steam refund policy now goes beyond what Australian law requires. That is, you can refund a game simply because you change your mind (and have played less than 2 hours of the game). Australian law does not specify change of mind as a reason for refund.