6 ms·

We geeks do indeed need to be armed with apt analogies for Net Neutrality and its absence. My current favorite is: toll booths that charge you different amount

We geeks do indeed need to be armed with apt analogies for Net Neutrality and its absence. My current favorite is: toll booths that charge you different amounts depending on your destination. Or, highways with different speed limits depending on your destination.

na85 9y ago
Those are both confusing analogies to me. Don't toll booths already charge you different amounts depending on your destination? We don't have "toll booths" here in Canada that I'm aware of, but on the express toll routes such as the 407 through Toronto, you're charged based on the distance you travel. Is it not the same in the US? I seem to recall that on the Ohio Turnpike you end up paying more if you're going from Toledo to Cleveland than you would if you got off at Sandusky, because you go through more booths. Seems to me a more apt analogy would be that they lower the speed limit across the board, and then charge drivers more to get the original speed limit back.
- braindongle 9y ago
  Thanks for the thoughts. Room for improvement. I had in mind something more like a bridge toll. Two people leaving NYC, one going to New Jersey, the other to Pennsylvania. To get over the George Washington bridge, they are charged different amounts. The bridge authority (Comcast) is in bed with Jersey (Netflix), so they have an incentive to Charge the PA people (Hulu) more and keep the Jersey traffic flowing.
  - null000 9y ago
    nitpick: Comcast owns a 30% stake in hulu. If anything, the preferential treatment would be the other way around.
- gruturo 9y ago
  Toll booths charging more if your car is red, or if it’s a certain brand, or if you have a Wyoming license plate. A highway intentionally halving its speed limit, and then asking you money if you wish to drive fast (at the original speed limit) An airline charging you extra if you have a certain brand of products in your checked bag, even though it’s within the weight allowances.
  - takeda 9y ago
    An electric company charging a different rate based of the brand of devices you use (e.g. higher rate for companies that didn't made deal with them), and outright blocking battery packs and solar panels.
  - WWLink 9y ago
    No No, the bridge decides that Toyota is too popular so when you drive across in a Prius they put you in the really bumpy slow lane that sometimes has a hole through the bottom of the bridge in it. XD
- SilasX 9y ago
  I think the parent meant they charge you different prices for going the same distance on the toll road, if e.g. one driver's final destination was the movie theater, and the other driver's was the post office next door. >Seems to me a more apt analogy would be that they lower the speed limit across the board, and then charge drivers more to get the original speed limit back. That would be a jerk move, but not a violation of road/net neutrality since it applies equally to all. (I generally don't like how people call every bad ISP practice a violation of net neutrality; not everything bad is a violation.)
- djsumdog 9y ago
  > Don't toll booths already charge you different amounts depending on your destination Yea the mid-west toll roads and the Chicago Skyway will charge per segment (I think). The DC metro system and Seattle's Link Lightrail also charges you based on how far you ride (you tap in and out and it calculates the fare based on zones traveled. Seattle just has two zones though). A lot of transit systems charge by zone, and with network traffic you're really talking about fair relaying between all intermediate hops. The analogy doesn't really work. I don't think I'd try to use it.
- megaman22 9y ago
  Not anywhere I've been on a toll road in New England. If I go from Kittery to Kennebunk, I pay the same $3 toll at the York tollbooths as if I drove all the way up to Portland. Bizarrely, there are some interesting loopholes you can hit to avoid tolls by getting on and off at certain exits, as opposed to other neighboring exits. I commuted the Maine Turnpike for a little over a year, and the difference between naive routing and toll-optimized routing could be five or six dollars a day.
- qbrass 9y ago
  You're paying for distance traveled, not the destination. In Cleveland, the Great Lakes Science Center sits directly between the stadium where the Browns play, and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, which are all on the same block. https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=41.508389&mlon=-81.6955&zoom=15#map=17/41.50630/-81.69659 https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=41.508389&mlon=-81.6955&... Now say the stadium and the Rock and Roll Hall of fame have an agreement where customers get their tolls covered, but the Science Center doesn't.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
didibus 9y ago
Mine is electricity. Imagine your electricity only allowed you to use Samsung's electronic. You can't use Phillips anymore, and you have to pay extra if you want to use Sony.
- wired_devil 9y ago
  Nice one. Can I use that?
- 4684499 9y ago
  Normally, with competition between power supply companies, the result would be you get lower electricity price if you use Samsung's electronic, you are still allowed to use other brands' electronics, but you need to pay regular/higher price.
millstone 9y ago
Perhaps drivers should be offered a discount if they're willing to drive slower or shorter distances. These arguments presuppose that rates will go up, and maybe they will. But then that's the real argument: you'll pay more for what you're getting today.

na85 9y ago

Those are both confusing analogies to me. Don't toll booths already charge you different amounts depending on your destination? We don't have "toll booths" here in Canada that I'm aware of, but on the express toll routes such as the 407 through Toronto, you're charged based on the distance you travel. Is it not the same in the US? I seem to recall that on the Ohio Turnpike you end up paying more if you're going from Toledo to Cleveland than you would if you got off at Sandusky, because you go through more booths. Seems to me a more apt analogy would be that they lower the speed limit across the board, and then charge drivers more to get the original speed limit back.

braindongle 9y ago
Thanks for the thoughts. Room for improvement. I had in mind something more like a bridge toll. Two people leaving NYC, one going to New Jersey, the other to Pennsylvania. To get over the George Washington bridge, they are charged different amounts. The bridge authority (Comcast) is in bed with Jersey (Netflix), so they have an incentive to Charge the PA people (Hulu) more and keep the Jersey traffic flowing.
- null000 9y ago
  nitpick: Comcast owns a 30% stake in hulu. If anything, the preferential treatment would be the other way around.
gruturo 9y ago
Toll booths charging more if your car is red, or if it’s a certain brand, or if you have a Wyoming license plate. A highway intentionally halving its speed limit, and then asking you money if you wish to drive fast (at the original speed limit) An airline charging you extra if you have a certain brand of products in your checked bag, even though it’s within the weight allowances.
- takeda 9y ago
  An electric company charging a different rate based of the brand of devices you use (e.g. higher rate for companies that didn't made deal with them), and outright blocking battery packs and solar panels.
- WWLink 9y ago
  No No, the bridge decides that Toyota is too popular so when you drive across in a Prius they put you in the really bumpy slow lane that sometimes has a hole through the bottom of the bridge in it. XD
SilasX 9y ago
I think the parent meant they charge you different prices for going the same distance on the toll road, if e.g. one driver's final destination was the movie theater, and the other driver's was the post office next door. >Seems to me a more apt analogy would be that they lower the speed limit across the board, and then charge drivers more to get the original speed limit back. That would be a jerk move, but not a violation of road/net neutrality since it applies equally to all. (I generally don't like how people call every bad ISP practice a violation of net neutrality; not everything bad is a violation.)
djsumdog 9y ago
> Don't toll booths already charge you different amounts depending on your destination Yea the mid-west toll roads and the Chicago Skyway will charge per segment (I think). The DC metro system and Seattle's Link Lightrail also charges you based on how far you ride (you tap in and out and it calculates the fare based on zones traveled. Seattle just has two zones though). A lot of transit systems charge by zone, and with network traffic you're really talking about fair relaying between all intermediate hops. The analogy doesn't really work. I don't think I'd try to use it.
megaman22 9y ago
Not anywhere I've been on a toll road in New England. If I go from Kittery to Kennebunk, I pay the same $3 toll at the York tollbooths as if I drove all the way up to Portland. Bizarrely, there are some interesting loopholes you can hit to avoid tolls by getting on and off at certain exits, as opposed to other neighboring exits. I commuted the Maine Turnpike for a little over a year, and the difference between naive routing and toll-optimized routing could be five or six dollars a day.
qbrass 9y ago
You're paying for distance traveled, not the destination. In Cleveland, the Great Lakes Science Center sits directly between the stadium where the Browns play, and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, which are all on the same block. https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=41.508389&mlon=-81.6955&zoom=15#map=17/41.50630/-81.69659 https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=41.508389&mlon=-81.6955&... Now say the stadium and the Rock and Roll Hall of fame have an agreement where customers get their tolls covered, but the Science Center doesn't.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

didibus 9y ago

Mine is electricity. Imagine your electricity only allowed you to use Samsung's electronic. You can't use Phillips anymore, and you have to pay extra if you want to use Sony.

wired_devil 9y ago
Nice one. Can I use that?
4684499 9y ago
Normally, with competition between power supply companies, the result would be you get lower electricity price if you use Samsung's electronic, you are still allowed to use other brands' electronics, but you need to pay regular/higher price.

millstone 9y ago

Perhaps drivers should be offered a discount if they're willing to drive slower or shorter distances. These arguments presuppose that rates will go up, and maybe they will. But then that's the real argument: you'll pay more for what you're getting today.