8 ms·

Is the metric for most stem masters or phds useful? The Soviet Union use to produce many such people but never achieved much.

zakk 9y ago
They beat the US in sending the first man to space. Saying that “they never achieved much” is a gigantic understatement!!
- CamperBob2 9y ago
  And today, when American astronauts need a ride to space, guess who we have to bum it from? It's a disgusting state of affairs, regardless of anyone's opinion on Russia.
  - adventured 9y ago
    Pretty silly context dropping. The US has superior launch capability to Russia. SpaceX performed more launches all by itself in 2017 than all of the large Russian nation that has been doing space launches for 60 years. That gap is about to get dramatically worse over the next five years.
  - Bendingo 9y ago
    Rides into space and rocket engines are not the only thing USA needs Russian Federation for [0] and [1]. (The second reference has a misleading url; the artcile's actual title is "Why the U.S. Is Buying Natural Gas From Russia"). [0] https://www.rt.com/business/415345-united-states-buying-russian-lng/ https://www.rt.com/business/415345-united-states-buying-russ... [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-19/how-the-u-s-almost-bought-russian-natural-gas-quicktake-q-a https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-19/how-the-u...
- virmundi 9y ago
  Fair point. Poor wording on my part. Given the way the ranking under discussion values tertiary education and given how much the Soviets had them but didn't succeed economically, is having a high number of them really beneficial? It takes resources and time to get a PhD or a masters. Are these the best thing on which to spend them? Do they really matter? Can you be more practically innovative with simple undergrad degrees?
  - SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
    Innovation and economic success are not the same thing.
    - virmundi 9y ago
      While not necessarily so, they do seem to have are strong causal relationship. The more innovative an economy, the more economic freedom it has.
- Bendingo 9y ago
  And also sent first woman to space. First dog(s) too. First orbiting spacecraft etc.
jrs95 9y ago
Apparently the quantity of patents is also considered. Not the best metric either IMO
dvdhnt 9y ago
I disagree. Some of the Soviet scientists who won a Nobel Prize in science [1]: - 1958 Pavel Cherenkov, Ilya Frank and Igor Tamm "for the discovery and interpretation of the Cherenkov effect" - 1962 Lev Landau "for his theories about condensed matter, particularly about liquid helium superfluidity" - 1964 Nikolay Basov and Aleksandr Prokhorov "for fundamental work in the area of the quantum electronics, which led to the construction of oscillators and amplifiers on the basis of the maser laser principle" Additionally, some of the other areas where Soviets contributed to research and innovation include [2]: - stem cells - light emitting diodes - electric rocket motor - blood bank - paratrooping 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_the_... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Russian_innovation#_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Russian_innovation... edit: formatting
- cryptonector 9y ago
  But the USSR failed anyways, and it failed to innovate enough before it failed to overcome the downsides of communism. That's the point. You can have lots of people with post-grad credentials whose creativity is not fully utilized. Or who don't really have the requisite creativity in spite of their credentials. The USSR may have had quality and quantity in spades (maybe it really did!) but their economic structure wasted that advantage.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > But the USSR failed anyways, and it failed to innovate enough before it failed to overcome the downsides of communism. You mean “the downside of starting off as a poorly-developed state engaged in a multi-generation combination of outright war and proxy wars and military spending races with the most advanced countries in the world”.
    - abakker 9y ago
      That is certainly one way of rephrasing, but the fact remains that of those things you list, many are the result of the ideological focus on spreading communism. So, in a way, the parent post is right that they failed to get past the downsides of communism.
coldtea 9y ago
If you look it with modern history-rewriting lenses (e.g. what most people born after 1970 would have heard about) no. At the time though, they did a heck of a lot of good basic research -- plus the whole "first man on space" thing.
Bucephalus355 9y ago
Around 50% or so of Russian PhD Dissertations are plagiarized. Here’s your source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/03/18/russias-plagiarism-problem-even-putin-has-done-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/03/... Russia did a lot of innovation in the 1950’s - 1970’s. They then made two terrible decisions. One was to stop producing their own computer parts and steal from abroad, which worked at first but then it became harder to steal and reverse engineer than simply make themselves. The BESM-6 mainframe was an incredible computer, sad they didn’t continue working on it. Second was the move against the Jews in the 1970’s. Kind of ironic they didn’t learn the lesson of Hitler, lots of great future scientists left. Anyway this is why the Google founder Sergei Brin is now in the US. His father was Jewish and wanted to be a mathematician, but since he was a Jew he could only be a janitor.
- vidoc 9y ago
  > Around 50% or so of Russian PhD Dissertations are plagiarized. Your "source" looks like a troll to me
  - Bucephalus355 9y ago
    It’s a serious article from the Washington Post?
    - vidoc 9y ago
      Do you find the title serious? And how about the illustration? Did you ask yourself if this could possibly be a russian bashing wapo article by any chance?
      - Bucephalus355 9y ago
        It’s from 2014, before the Jeff Bezos acquisition and the current Russian collision investigation. Regarding the Russian investigation, I agree with Glenn Greenewald that there is nothing there, and that the Democrats are in danger of becoming the HUAC of the 2020’s. Also, in defense of Trump, I think he understands that the real danger is China, who fakes both the degrees AND the research. See this article: - Fraud Scandals Sap China’s Dream of Becoming a Science Superpower https://nyti.ms/2kNc3Ez https://nyti.ms/2kNc3Ez I hope that adds more nuance to my post.
FRex 9y ago
The first nuclear power plant connected to the grid to actually power stuff was one in the SU. The first artificial satellite, first animal in orbit and first human in space are all from SU. The first properly continuously inhabited space station Mir was also theirs. Then they (Russian which is de facto descendant of and was most important part of SU before it dissolved) also contributed to the ISS along the US. They also made the Tsar Bomba, FOBS, AK, Katyusha, RPG, Su, MiG, T tanks, etc. and had other weapon, space and medicine related achievements. In the interwar period in 1919-1921 war SU was also badly beat up by 'weaker' Poland (that only gained independence in 1918 after 123 years since it was partitioned completely in the last of 3 partitions) and it and its satellite states in Warsaw Pact/Eastern Bloc grew to be strong enough to engage in a stand off with USA and the West. If that's not much then I don't know what is.
- pimmen 9y ago
  And yet they didn't produce that much stuff that people actually wanted. If you went to a grocery store in Moscow in the 80s the shelves were empty unless you knew when the store would buy the allotted inventory. Not saying the USSR didn't produce a lot of good research and science but they weren't the best at transferring that research into technology the people really wanted. Because of the free market the US and Europe could try all different kinds of hardware and software ideas that lead to the ecosystem we have today, for example. Same thing with finance.
  - digikata 9y ago
    Ironically though, many rockets built by companies specializing in the US defense are dependent on Russian rocket engines to send their vehicles into space. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RD-180#Replacement_for_the_RD-180_engine_on_US_Atlas_launch_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RD-180#Replacement_for_the_RD-...
    - gandhium 9y ago
      Yes, those engines (and ISS parts) were specifically ordered by US to keep Soviet rocket production busy and to avoid their migration to North Korea or Iran.

zakk 9y ago

They beat the US in sending the first man to space. Saying that “they never achieved much” is a gigantic understatement!!

CamperBob2 9y ago
And today, when American astronauts need a ride to space, guess who we have to bum it from? It's a disgusting state of affairs, regardless of anyone's opinion on Russia.
- adventured 9y ago
  Pretty silly context dropping. The US has superior launch capability to Russia. SpaceX performed more launches all by itself in 2017 than all of the large Russian nation that has been doing space launches for 60 years. That gap is about to get dramatically worse over the next five years.
- Bendingo 9y ago
  Rides into space and rocket engines are not the only thing USA needs Russian Federation for [0] and [1]. (The second reference has a misleading url; the artcile's actual title is "Why the U.S. Is Buying Natural Gas From Russia"). [0] https://www.rt.com/business/415345-united-states-buying-russian-lng/ https://www.rt.com/business/415345-united-states-buying-russ... [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-19/how-the-u-s-almost-bought-russian-natural-gas-quicktake-q-a https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-19/how-the-u...
virmundi 9y ago
Fair point. Poor wording on my part. Given the way the ranking under discussion values tertiary education and given how much the Soviets had them but didn't succeed economically, is having a high number of them really beneficial? It takes resources and time to get a PhD or a masters. Are these the best thing on which to spend them? Do they really matter? Can you be more practically innovative with simple undergrad degrees?
- SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
  Innovation and economic success are not the same thing.
  - virmundi 9y ago
    While not necessarily so, they do seem to have are strong causal relationship. The more innovative an economy, the more economic freedom it has.
Bendingo 9y ago
And also sent first woman to space. First dog(s) too. First orbiting spacecraft etc.

jrs95 9y ago

Apparently the quantity of patents is also considered. Not the best metric either IMO

dvdhnt 9y ago

I disagree. Some of the Soviet scientists who won a Nobel Prize in science [1]: - 1958 Pavel Cherenkov, Ilya Frank and Igor Tamm "for the discovery and interpretation of the Cherenkov effect" - 1962 Lev Landau "for his theories about condensed matter, particularly about liquid helium superfluidity" - 1964 Nikolay Basov and Aleksandr Prokhorov "for fundamental work in the area of the quantum electronics, which led to the construction of oscillators and amplifiers on the basis of the maser laser principle" Additionally, some of the other areas where Soviets contributed to research and innovation include [2]: - stem cells - light emitting diodes - electric rocket motor - blood bank - paratrooping 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_the_... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Russian_innovation#_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Russian_innovation... edit: formatting

cryptonector 9y ago
But the USSR failed anyways, and it failed to innovate enough before it failed to overcome the downsides of communism. That's the point. You can have lots of people with post-grad credentials whose creativity is not fully utilized. Or who don't really have the requisite creativity in spite of their credentials. The USSR may have had quality and quantity in spades (maybe it really did!) but their economic structure wasted that advantage.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > But the USSR failed anyways, and it failed to innovate enough before it failed to overcome the downsides of communism. You mean “the downside of starting off as a poorly-developed state engaged in a multi-generation combination of outright war and proxy wars and military spending races with the most advanced countries in the world”.
  - abakker 9y ago
    That is certainly one way of rephrasing, but the fact remains that of those things you list, many are the result of the ideological focus on spreading communism. So, in a way, the parent post is right that they failed to get past the downsides of communism.

coldtea 9y ago

If you look it with modern history-rewriting lenses (e.g. what most people born after 1970 would have heard about) no. At the time though, they did a heck of a lot of good basic research -- plus the whole "first man on space" thing.

Bucephalus355 9y ago

Around 50% or so of Russian PhD Dissertations are plagiarized. Here’s your source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/03/18/russias-plagiarism-problem-even-putin-has-done-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/03/... Russia did a lot of innovation in the 1950’s - 1970’s. They then made two terrible decisions. One was to stop producing their own computer parts and steal from abroad, which worked at first but then it became harder to steal and reverse engineer than simply make themselves. The BESM-6 mainframe was an incredible computer, sad they didn’t continue working on it. Second was the move against the Jews in the 1970’s. Kind of ironic they didn’t learn the lesson of Hitler, lots of great future scientists left. Anyway this is why the Google founder Sergei Brin is now in the US. His father was Jewish and wanted to be a mathematician, but since he was a Jew he could only be a janitor.

vidoc 9y ago
> Around 50% or so of Russian PhD Dissertations are plagiarized. Your "source" looks like a troll to me
- Bucephalus355 9y ago
  It’s a serious article from the Washington Post?
  - vidoc 9y ago
    Do you find the title serious? And how about the illustration? Did you ask yourself if this could possibly be a russian bashing wapo article by any chance?
    - Bucephalus355 9y ago
      It’s from 2014, before the Jeff Bezos acquisition and the current Russian collision investigation. Regarding the Russian investigation, I agree with Glenn Greenewald that there is nothing there, and that the Democrats are in danger of becoming the HUAC of the 2020’s. Also, in defense of Trump, I think he understands that the real danger is China, who fakes both the degrees AND the research. See this article: - Fraud Scandals Sap China’s Dream of Becoming a Science Superpower https://nyti.ms/2kNc3Ez https://nyti.ms/2kNc3Ez I hope that adds more nuance to my post.

FRex 9y ago

The first nuclear power plant connected to the grid to actually power stuff was one in the SU. The first artificial satellite, first animal in orbit and first human in space are all from SU. The first properly continuously inhabited space station Mir was also theirs. Then they (Russian which is de facto descendant of and was most important part of SU before it dissolved) also contributed to the ISS along the US. They also made the Tsar Bomba, FOBS, AK, Katyusha, RPG, Su, MiG, T tanks, etc. and had other weapon, space and medicine related achievements. In the interwar period in 1919-1921 war SU was also badly beat up by 'weaker' Poland (that only gained independence in 1918 after 123 years since it was partitioned completely in the last of 3 partitions) and it and its satellite states in Warsaw Pact/Eastern Bloc grew to be strong enough to engage in a stand off with USA and the West. If that's not much then I don't know what is.

pimmen 9y ago
And yet they didn't produce that much stuff that people actually wanted. If you went to a grocery store in Moscow in the 80s the shelves were empty unless you knew when the store would buy the allotted inventory. Not saying the USSR didn't produce a lot of good research and science but they weren't the best at transferring that research into technology the people really wanted. Because of the free market the US and Europe could try all different kinds of hardware and software ideas that lead to the ecosystem we have today, for example. Same thing with finance.
- digikata 9y ago
  Ironically though, many rockets built by companies specializing in the US defense are dependent on Russian rocket engines to send their vehicles into space. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RD-180#Replacement_for_the_RD-180_engine_on_US_Atlas_launch_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RD-180#Replacement_for_the_RD-...
  - gandhium 9y ago
    Yes, those engines (and ISS parts) were specifically ordered by US to keep Soviet rocket production busy and to avoid their migration to North Korea or Iran.