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To be fair, the US system does have a special class of vote for budgetary issues that defangs the filibuster: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconciliation_(U

To be fair, the US system does have a special class of vote for budgetary issues that defangs the filibuster: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconciliation_(United_States_Congress) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconciliation_(United_State...

mikeash 9y ago
Yep, and the majority party decided to waste their chance on unpopular tax cuts rather than use it to keep the lights on.
- ars 9y ago
  The tax cuts are actually very popular. And I don't think anyone expected the Democrats to actually shut down the government over illegal immigrants.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-gop-tax-cuts-are-even-more-unpopular-than-past-tax-hikes/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-gop-tax-cuts-are-ev...
    - ars 9y ago
      I personally, was totally against the tax cut after reading about it in the media. Then it actually passed and the media (yup, that same media) put out some calculators. I played with those, and realized I was seriously mislead. Wait another month, when people will get higher paychecks, and see if it's still unpopular. I really wish the media would stop telling me how to think. Just tell me what happened. Leave out the reactions, and quotes from "other people" telling me what I should think about a topic. Best I can do right now is read opposing media outlets and contrast them, but it's hard to do.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        You seem to be arguing about whether or not the tax cut should be popular, which is completely different.
        ars 9y ago
        No, that's not what I said. I said a survey done that early is not indicative of people's true opinion. Do another survey in a month, and that data should be correct.
        mikeash 9y ago
        You used the present tense in your initial reply.
        ars 9y ago
        So? The survey is older than the present. The comments I've seen online and in person show that people actually do support it, which will only increase once higher paychecks arrive. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?
        mikeash 9y ago
        Are you? I don’t think the popularity of the tax cut is terribly relevant, although its unpopularity makes this cock-up worse. You felt it was worth correcting, but you can’t back it up with anything more than anecdotes or guesswork. So what’s the point of arguing?
  - kasey_junk 9y ago
    It is impossible for this not to be a political topic and I probably shouldn’t be even discussing it here, but whatever. What would be the reasonable thing for the democrats to do right now? They weren’t allowed to see the tax bill. That’s what happens when something has the 51 republicans and it can’t be filibustered in the current environment. Further, the republicans haven’t even brought a bill forward to be filibustered likely because they don’t have the votes in their own party. I’m fairly centrist for this site but the republicans controlling every part of the government as well as already using their reconciliation power and blaming the democrats is so shockingly perverse in its cinycism. That’s before you even take into account the duplicity on DACA that has broad bipartisan support up to a meeting with the president last week. Neither morally or strategically should the democrats budge on this.
    - ars 9y ago
      Except they are hurting tons of people in the US in exchange for strategy. That's simply not right. And of all issues DACA? It's important to some people, but as a national topic it's pretty minor. > What would be the reasonable thing for the democrats to do right now? Realize they are weak and accept it. Then take the offer they were given and do the best they can. But don't hurt unrelated people in the US to try to increase their own strength. That's a pretty selfish thing to do after all.
      - tptacek 9y ago
        As a national issue, deporting people who should by rights be citizens and have known no other country than ours, many of whom are parents of actual American citizens, children, citizens, who might not even know Spanish, that's a minor issue?
        ars 9y ago
        > that's a minor issue? Compared to a government shutdown? Yes, very much a minor issue. Like I said, important in it's own right, but not in comparison to this.
        9y ago

mikeash 9y ago

Yep, and the majority party decided to waste their chance on unpopular tax cuts rather than use it to keep the lights on.

ars 9y ago
The tax cuts are actually very popular. And I don't think anyone expected the Democrats to actually shut down the government over illegal immigrants.
- mikeash 9y ago
  https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-gop-tax-cuts-are-even-more-unpopular-than-past-tax-hikes/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-gop-tax-cuts-are-ev...
  - ars 9y ago
    I personally, was totally against the tax cut after reading about it in the media. Then it actually passed and the media (yup, that same media) put out some calculators. I played with those, and realized I was seriously mislead. Wait another month, when people will get higher paychecks, and see if it's still unpopular. I really wish the media would stop telling me how to think. Just tell me what happened. Leave out the reactions, and quotes from "other people" telling me what I should think about a topic. Best I can do right now is read opposing media outlets and contrast them, but it's hard to do.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      You seem to be arguing about whether or not the tax cut should be popular, which is completely different.
      - ars 9y ago
        No, that's not what I said. I said a survey done that early is not indicative of people's true opinion. Do another survey in a month, and that data should be correct.
        mikeash 9y ago
        You used the present tense in your initial reply.
        ars 9y ago
        So? The survey is older than the present. The comments I've seen online and in person show that people actually do support it, which will only increase once higher paychecks arrive. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?
        mikeash 9y ago
        Are you? I don’t think the popularity of the tax cut is terribly relevant, although its unpopularity makes this cock-up worse. You felt it was worth correcting, but you can’t back it up with anything more than anecdotes or guesswork. So what’s the point of arguing?
- kasey_junk 9y ago
  It is impossible for this not to be a political topic and I probably shouldn’t be even discussing it here, but whatever. What would be the reasonable thing for the democrats to do right now? They weren’t allowed to see the tax bill. That’s what happens when something has the 51 republicans and it can’t be filibustered in the current environment. Further, the republicans haven’t even brought a bill forward to be filibustered likely because they don’t have the votes in their own party. I’m fairly centrist for this site but the republicans controlling every part of the government as well as already using their reconciliation power and blaming the democrats is so shockingly perverse in its cinycism. That’s before you even take into account the duplicity on DACA that has broad bipartisan support up to a meeting with the president last week. Neither morally or strategically should the democrats budge on this.
  - ars 9y ago
    Except they are hurting tons of people in the US in exchange for strategy. That's simply not right. And of all issues DACA? It's important to some people, but as a national topic it's pretty minor. > What would be the reasonable thing for the democrats to do right now? Realize they are weak and accept it. Then take the offer they were given and do the best they can. But don't hurt unrelated people in the US to try to increase their own strength. That's a pretty selfish thing to do after all.
    - tptacek 9y ago
      As a national issue, deporting people who should by rights be citizens and have known no other country than ours, many of whom are parents of actual American citizens, children, citizens, who might not even know Spanish, that's a minor issue?
      - ars 9y ago
        > that's a minor issue? Compared to a government shutdown? Yes, very much a minor issue. Like I said, important in it's own right, but not in comparison to this.
      - 9y ago