7 ms·

Why doesn't Intel just go to Linus and ask politely: "Ok, we f-ed up, here is a million dollars (or whatever, 10x his normal salary or something) can you please

Why doesn't Intel just go to Linus and ask politely: "Ok, we f-ed up, here is a million dollars (or whatever, 10x his normal salary or something) can you please work with us tightly for some time? Thank you." I would really respect Intel if they would.

watwut 9y ago
Why should they ask politely? It is not like the Linux mailing list would be polite environment. Nothing against impolite environment, people make case for it daily here and I don't care. But it combined with the standard expectation that when someone else talks to them he should be always polite is getting funny in that context.
- sheepdestroyer 9y ago
  You'll get a pass at being impolite if you are technically in the right... Here Intel fucked up so they should be really really polite instead.
- teekert 9y ago
  If you want something from someone you ask it politely. If you produce BS, you get told you produce BS. I'm guessing it's a cultural thing I'm also guessing you are an American. Americans coming here often tell us we are very direct and it takes getting used to. We often tell Americans we prefer they speak their mind and don't pretend something is great or we are best friends when it isn't the case. I'm from the Netherlands but I'm guessing Linus has his Finnish roots showing from time to time. Honestly, it's nice in the US to have waiters/waitresses that are nice, it feels insincere but I prefer it greatly to the sometimes outright moody waiters here. It's a culturing thing as well. If Intel would be sincere, they would just admin they produced BS (Linus is the best person to call BS on such patches) and apologize to Linus for wasting his time and ask how he would like to see the patches.
  - watwut 9y ago
    1.) I am not American. I am also not talking about Torwalds, because as far as I know Linus did not explicitly demanded to be spoken to "politely" (afaik). 2.) Talking politely and talking directly are orthogonal categories. You can be impolite while not direct and also polite while being direct. 3.) An environment in which people just speak their minds and is ok with people being impolite when those feel like it is characterized by everyone speaking is mind or being impolite, not just your hero. Meaning, you will not put emphasis on "be polite" when someone you dont like asks for something. 3.) I am pointing out the difference between how people who are not Torwalds demand that you talk to mailing list and what they defend as "good way to communicate" by people they admire. Because actual openly speaking culture is symmetric.
    - brynjolf 9y ago
      Boring. Heard it all before.
      - watwut 9y ago
        Is that supposed to mean that you agree, that you think everyone agrees or that you disagree for reason you refuse to say?
        marcosdumay 9y ago
        I guess he's going for the indirect, impolite, with low information density option.
      - jechamt 9y ago
        I've identified recursion in my reaction to this comment
- asplake 9y ago
  I’d expect any such approach to take place off list
- nippples 9y ago
  There's more ways to be impolite than saying nasty words. Linus had been treating all this situation very fairly so far, but I guess Intel just had to repeatedly try pushing very bad fixes to a problem they created themselves. Imagine you go to a restaurant, and the waiter just repeatedly brings you the wrong order, repeatedly.
  - musage 9y ago
    > Imagine you go to a restaurant, and the waiter just repeatedly brings you the wrong order, repeatedly. I agree with you in general, but that's a bad example IMO. If they are stressed out and make honest mistakes, even if they're totally incompetent and stupid, I would probably laugh harder each subsequent time and assure them it's no big deal, and it would be true. With anyone, but doubly so with anyone who handles my food. If on the other hand they just didn't care etc., I'd leave at some point and never return. The point at which there would be something to get nasty about is also past the point where it would still make sense to be nasty about it, if you know what I mean. Not that I think Linus is being particularly nasty, and as I said, I generally agree. But that example rubbed me the wrong way, I just had to speak up, sorry ^^
  - watwut 9y ago
    Ad restaurant: I would not be rude to them in that situation. I would refuse to pay wrong food if I would think I don't want to eat it. If I would be hungry, I would be angry, but I would still not insult them and there is no rational reason to do so. I can control my anger in easy restaurant situatuon like that. At worst, I would leave.
sannee 9y ago
Note that Intel is a platinum member of the Linux Foundation, which means they donate >=500k$ per year.
- txdv 9y ago
  Ah, if they stopped now, imagine the PR nightmare.
  - icelancer 9y ago
    They won't, for so many more reasons beyond the PR nightmare. Linus yelling at a former rep of Intel isn't enough to cause them to do something that stupid.
    - Fnoord 9y ago
      The hypothesis of this happening reminds me of "OpenBSD loses funding due to anti-war statements" (2003) [1] [1] http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/21/1050777197498.html http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/21/1050777197498.h...
      - icelancer 9y ago
        The difference being Intel/Linus and a government and TdR, who is quite a bit more acerbic than Linus... and the government less tolerant of comments as such. Still, a good find. Also, Unices! Not a word I've heard before.
Tijdreiziger 9y ago
Why don't they just work on a proper fix instead? I'm sure Linus would be glad to integrate a proper solution, but it's clear that his opinion is that Intel is instead bringing 'garbage' to the table.
- pmlnr 9y ago
  Because there is no proper fix. The only fix comes with massive slowdown.
  - idbehold 9y ago
    You just contradicted yourself.
    - opportune 9y ago
      Not really. There is a fix. It is not "proper" because after implementing it, few businesses and people will continue to buy Intel products
      - singingboyo 9y ago
        That doesn't mean it's an improper fix. Intel's corporate inability to handle potential fallout does not change that the right/proper fix is to enable security by default. The only improper thing is that we need this fix at all, but that bridge has been crossed, burned, and dropped into the Mariana Trench, so no going back now.
mrweasel 9y ago
Intel knows how to fix the problem, they don't really need Linus. What they do need is to accept a slowdown for some of their processors, but they are absolutely terrified to look bad compared to AMD in the benchmarks.
- icelancer 9y ago
  Linus is also not actually qualified to solve this problem. He's the guy we need to call bullshit, but as you said, Intel already knows what the problem - and the solution - is. Linus is simply pointing that out (which is certainly good).

watwut 9y ago

Why should they ask politely? It is not like the Linux mailing list would be polite environment. Nothing against impolite environment, people make case for it daily here and I don't care. But it combined with the standard expectation that when someone else talks to them he should be always polite is getting funny in that context.

sheepdestroyer 9y ago
You'll get a pass at being impolite if you are technically in the right... Here Intel fucked up so they should be really really polite instead.
teekert 9y ago
If you want something from someone you ask it politely. If you produce BS, you get told you produce BS. I'm guessing it's a cultural thing I'm also guessing you are an American. Americans coming here often tell us we are very direct and it takes getting used to. We often tell Americans we prefer they speak their mind and don't pretend something is great or we are best friends when it isn't the case. I'm from the Netherlands but I'm guessing Linus has his Finnish roots showing from time to time. Honestly, it's nice in the US to have waiters/waitresses that are nice, it feels insincere but I prefer it greatly to the sometimes outright moody waiters here. It's a culturing thing as well. If Intel would be sincere, they would just admin they produced BS (Linus is the best person to call BS on such patches) and apologize to Linus for wasting his time and ask how he would like to see the patches.
- watwut 9y ago
  1.) I am not American. I am also not talking about Torwalds, because as far as I know Linus did not explicitly demanded to be spoken to "politely" (afaik). 2.) Talking politely and talking directly are orthogonal categories. You can be impolite while not direct and also polite while being direct. 3.) An environment in which people just speak their minds and is ok with people being impolite when those feel like it is characterized by everyone speaking is mind or being impolite, not just your hero. Meaning, you will not put emphasis on "be polite" when someone you dont like asks for something. 3.) I am pointing out the difference between how people who are not Torwalds demand that you talk to mailing list and what they defend as "good way to communicate" by people they admire. Because actual openly speaking culture is symmetric.
  - brynjolf 9y ago
    Boring. Heard it all before.
    - watwut 9y ago
      Is that supposed to mean that you agree, that you think everyone agrees or that you disagree for reason you refuse to say?
      - marcosdumay 9y ago
        I guess he's going for the indirect, impolite, with low information density option.
    - jechamt 9y ago
      I've identified recursion in my reaction to this comment
asplake 9y ago
I’d expect any such approach to take place off list
nippples 9y ago
There's more ways to be impolite than saying nasty words. Linus had been treating all this situation very fairly so far, but I guess Intel just had to repeatedly try pushing very bad fixes to a problem they created themselves. Imagine you go to a restaurant, and the waiter just repeatedly brings you the wrong order, repeatedly.
- musage 9y ago
  > Imagine you go to a restaurant, and the waiter just repeatedly brings you the wrong order, repeatedly. I agree with you in general, but that's a bad example IMO. If they are stressed out and make honest mistakes, even if they're totally incompetent and stupid, I would probably laugh harder each subsequent time and assure them it's no big deal, and it would be true. With anyone, but doubly so with anyone who handles my food. If on the other hand they just didn't care etc., I'd leave at some point and never return. The point at which there would be something to get nasty about is also past the point where it would still make sense to be nasty about it, if you know what I mean. Not that I think Linus is being particularly nasty, and as I said, I generally agree. But that example rubbed me the wrong way, I just had to speak up, sorry ^^
- watwut 9y ago
  Ad restaurant: I would not be rude to them in that situation. I would refuse to pay wrong food if I would think I don't want to eat it. If I would be hungry, I would be angry, but I would still not insult them and there is no rational reason to do so. I can control my anger in easy restaurant situatuon like that. At worst, I would leave.

sannee 9y ago

Note that Intel is a platinum member of the Linux Foundation, which means they donate >=500k$ per year.

txdv 9y ago
Ah, if they stopped now, imagine the PR nightmare.
- icelancer 9y ago
  They won't, for so many more reasons beyond the PR nightmare. Linus yelling at a former rep of Intel isn't enough to cause them to do something that stupid.
  - Fnoord 9y ago
    The hypothesis of this happening reminds me of "OpenBSD loses funding due to anti-war statements" (2003) [1] [1] http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/21/1050777197498.html http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/21/1050777197498.h...
    - icelancer 9y ago
      The difference being Intel/Linus and a government and TdR, who is quite a bit more acerbic than Linus... and the government less tolerant of comments as such. Still, a good find. Also, Unices! Not a word I've heard before.

Tijdreiziger 9y ago

Why don't they just work on a proper fix instead? I'm sure Linus would be glad to integrate a proper solution, but it's clear that his opinion is that Intel is instead bringing 'garbage' to the table.

pmlnr 9y ago
Because there is no proper fix. The only fix comes with massive slowdown.
- idbehold 9y ago
  You just contradicted yourself.
  - opportune 9y ago
    Not really. There is a fix. It is not "proper" because after implementing it, few businesses and people will continue to buy Intel products
    - singingboyo 9y ago
      That doesn't mean it's an improper fix. Intel's corporate inability to handle potential fallout does not change that the right/proper fix is to enable security by default. The only improper thing is that we need this fix at all, but that bridge has been crossed, burned, and dropped into the Mariana Trench, so no going back now.

mrweasel 9y ago

Intel knows how to fix the problem, they don't really need Linus. What they do need is to accept a slowdown for some of their processors, but they are absolutely terrified to look bad compared to AMD in the benchmarks.

icelancer 9y ago
Linus is also not actually qualified to solve this problem. He's the guy we need to call bullshit, but as you said, Intel already knows what the problem - and the solution - is. Linus is simply pointing that out (which is certainly good).