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It's strange that news organizations take such a cynical tone with new technology. Really? "Surveillance-powered convenience store"? Are we suppose to call Tech

by volgo 9y ago

It's strange that news organizations take such a cynical tone with new technology. Really? "Surveillance-powered convenience store"? Are we suppose to call TechCrunch a "surveillance-powered ad powerhouse"? Or Tesla "surveillance-powered vehicles"? All stores are already equipped with security cameras to prevent theft. When you're in someone's shop, you don't have an expectation of privacy. Amazon merely took it one more step and made it easier for you to checkout.

zajd 9y ago
> Are we suppose to call TechCrunch a "surveillance-powered ad powerhouse"? Or Tesla "surveillance-powered vehicles"? Yes and ignoring the fact that we're baking in surveillance to almost every aspect of our life is a problem society needs to address
- duckMuppet 9y ago
  An entire generation has now grown up with the idea that this level of surveillance is not only ok, it's actually odd to think differently. What's worse is the level of govt surveillance, after all i can just, not go to the creepy Amazon store.. In just a few short years, people who have never known life without the patriot act or the fear and anxiety of walking into an airport unmolested will be voting. I agree with you in principal. But I'm far less hopeful that meaningful solutions will come. After all, it's not been them that has enacted these secret courts, fisa, patriot act, ndaa, weaponizing govt ( irs, fbi, dhs, ...), that's been their role models, us. All in the name of safety.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - thinkloop 9y ago
    Part of the OP's point is that there currently are cameras in almost every store, and then you provide your identity by credit card at the end. It's not that much creepier than now.
- jchw 9y ago
  This is an interesting position to me. To paraphrase Lawrence Friedman, privacy is, pretty clearly, a recent invention. If anything, we're the first generations growing up with a concept of what privacy really means. I am personally a huge fan of privacy as a right. But, like free speech, it's not necessarily practical or desirable for it to be an absolute right. There's a line to be drawn in the sand, and it's purely subjective. The bottom line is, with the current way we draw the lines, there's practically no expectation of privacy in a store. You could be filmed. End of story. You can also be filmed at work, which I feel is a lot less comfortable, but still understandable. I think a lot of the problem is coming down to people's fear of what this could be used for, but we can't just stop making new things because the systems will be abused and subverted by bad actors. We need regulations that adapt faster to these problems. Regulations are already lagging hard on internet privacy, AI, etc. and it will continue to be far behind if something isn't done. There's no doubt that technology can be bad. Frankly, I don't think web browsers should execute arbitrary code for every page you visit. But for every new technology, there's usually just as many ways it could be used for evil as it is for good. Your privacy in the modern age could be dramatically improved if there was no such thing as a digital camera, but that doesn't mean a world without it would be better. Cameras were not required to have horrible corruption, bad actors, or evil corporations; all of those existed long before. Technology, on the other hand, illuminated these issues to the everyday person. If there's anything I want society to be addressing, it's how we're letting companies collect untold amounts of private information, sell it, use it in algorithms to try to manipulate society, and very often, accidentally allowing their entire databases to leak. All in the name of targeted advertising? The free lunch of unfettered, irresponsible data collection needs to end. Strictly regulating how devices can transmit and collect data could help a lot with almost every case that was mentioned, including Amazon's new stores, self-driving cars, and targeted ads.
  - cjslep 9y ago
    > If anything, we're the first generations growing up with a concept of what privacy really means. This is a kind of historical revisionism that I don't like that inflates the self-importance of the now merely because we don't know how things will turn out in the future. During the founding of the United States, privacy was very much a central issue. In fact, the Third (third!) Amendment to the Constitution was to prevent the invasion of privacy by an armed soldier of the government literally being imposed on a family's residence, and Fourth Amendment protected a person's privacy against unreasonable search and seizure. Yes computers are a novel twist, but to suppose no one back then "really understood what privacy means" I find to be a form of ignorance bordering on historical condescension.
ShabbosGoy 9y ago
This comment is something an apologist of surveillance would write. Yes, it is a surveillance powered store. That’s what it literally is. Just like Alexa and Google Home are literal always-on listening devices in your home. Edit: A bit more context in case someone misunderstands. New technology can improve one’s life exponentially. But it is simulataneously capable of exacting great harm.
- volgo 9y ago
  Everything in modern society is "surveillanced". The highways you drive on (highway cameras), the news sites you read (ad tracking), the dollars you make (IRS). Someone somewhere knows these things. Specifically pointing out something is "surveillance-powered" without context is agenda-driven.
  - ShabbosGoy 9y ago
    I agree, but we have to be careful not to give a pass to our industry to do whatever they want. And it isn’t necessarily agenda-driven by TechCrunch. As you said, they are ads/analytics based. So it follows that they will produce content that gets maximum eyeballs.
  - mlevental 9y ago
    surveiled
- hbosch 9y ago
  Your cell phone and computer are also an always-on listening devices, but we don't call Apple "surveillance powered".
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - kuschku 9y ago
    We should call everything that is constantly listening to us "surveillance powered". Anything that is recorded can be abused in the future.
amrrs 9y ago
Almost every large Retail store has a lot of Stuff going on with Video Analytics (eg: Store Front). With this one, Amazon has just upgraded the retail benchmark and ported their digital KPIs to Retail store. I think this is no way worse/stronger than Amazon.com tracking (except your faces show up).
dannyw 9y ago
If this is done by a startup that TechCrunch’s “partner VC” has invested in, I doubt it would have this cynical agenda-driven tone.
SilasX 9y ago
It’s inflammatory, but imho a valid concern — Amazon is probably going to link all your purchases there with your profile on Amazon, so it’s quite a leap in how much it enhances their ability to surveil you — while tempting you with the discounts that such detail enables.
- cheeze 9y ago
  Is this all that different from say... a Safeway/Kroger/whaeverTheEastCoastHas rewards card?
  - SilasX 9y ago
    In degree, yes — Kroger doesn’t have a longstanding separate profile of a big chunk of your online purchases and preferences.
nikkwong 9y ago
Yeah, at least Amazon took the seemingly obvious step of painting all objects in the ceiling black as to at least attempt to mask their surveillance. I sort of hate looking towards the ceiling at stores like Target which have those black domes which contrast so hard against their white ceilings dispersed every 5 ft. It being so noticeable makes it feel all the creepier.
- joezydeco 9y ago
  As anti-theft devices, being visible is the entire idea. Want to bet some don't even have cameras in them?
nerfhammer 9y ago
Is communication without outrage even possible in the modern age?
sAbakumoff 9y ago
...in exchange to having the full access to your offline shopping experience. I say fuck you Amazon, I'm ok to check out as usual.
methodin 9y ago
I'm not really sure what other avenues one can go down that isn't powered by surveillance that takes the "ease" factor to the next level. Literally without humans there you have computers and the computers have to know who you are. What other possible outcomes are there?
- hndamien 9y ago
  Monero is one new technology that is increasing privacy significantly in an important way. I can't think of many others since they all have large downsides in delivering a better service. Brave for advertising perhaps. I can't think of anything else.
clhodapp 9y ago
Well... I think you're right that the headline is pretty biased. I also think that it's kind of reasonable to be a bit stressed out that the entry level for the labor market is about to get a whole lot higher as robots become more affordable and sophisticated. I know I'm changing the subject a bit but I think that it is reasonable to bring this up because I think that in a lot of cases, people are willing to accept pretty much any demonization of things that scare them, which I think the news media is aware of.
Sylos 9y ago
I don't know what else you'd want to call it. It does use surveillance technology and does invade privacy a lot more than normal convenience stores. Not using the word "surveillance" here would in my opinion be more biased than using it. The store just is what it is, whether you want to be excited about this new technology or not.

by volgo 9y ago

zajd 9y ago

> Are we suppose to call TechCrunch a "surveillance-powered ad powerhouse"? Or Tesla "surveillance-powered vehicles"? Yes and ignoring the fact that we're baking in surveillance to almost every aspect of our life is a problem society needs to address

duckMuppet 9y ago
An entire generation has now grown up with the idea that this level of surveillance is not only ok, it's actually odd to think differently. What's worse is the level of govt surveillance, after all i can just, not go to the creepy Amazon store.. In just a few short years, people who have never known life without the patriot act or the fear and anxiety of walking into an airport unmolested will be voting. I agree with you in principal. But I'm far less hopeful that meaningful solutions will come. After all, it's not been them that has enacted these secret courts, fisa, patriot act, ndaa, weaponizing govt ( irs, fbi, dhs, ...), that's been their role models, us. All in the name of safety.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- thinkloop 9y ago
  Part of the OP's point is that there currently are cameras in almost every store, and then you provide your identity by credit card at the end. It's not that much creepier than now.
jchw 9y ago
This is an interesting position to me. To paraphrase Lawrence Friedman, privacy is, pretty clearly, a recent invention. If anything, we're the first generations growing up with a concept of what privacy really means. I am personally a huge fan of privacy as a right. But, like free speech, it's not necessarily practical or desirable for it to be an absolute right. There's a line to be drawn in the sand, and it's purely subjective. The bottom line is, with the current way we draw the lines, there's practically no expectation of privacy in a store. You could be filmed. End of story. You can also be filmed at work, which I feel is a lot less comfortable, but still understandable. I think a lot of the problem is coming down to people's fear of what this could be used for, but we can't just stop making new things because the systems will be abused and subverted by bad actors. We need regulations that adapt faster to these problems. Regulations are already lagging hard on internet privacy, AI, etc. and it will continue to be far behind if something isn't done. There's no doubt that technology can be bad. Frankly, I don't think web browsers should execute arbitrary code for every page you visit. But for every new technology, there's usually just as many ways it could be used for evil as it is for good. Your privacy in the modern age could be dramatically improved if there was no such thing as a digital camera, but that doesn't mean a world without it would be better. Cameras were not required to have horrible corruption, bad actors, or evil corporations; all of those existed long before. Technology, on the other hand, illuminated these issues to the everyday person. If there's anything I want society to be addressing, it's how we're letting companies collect untold amounts of private information, sell it, use it in algorithms to try to manipulate society, and very often, accidentally allowing their entire databases to leak. All in the name of targeted advertising? The free lunch of unfettered, irresponsible data collection needs to end. Strictly regulating how devices can transmit and collect data could help a lot with almost every case that was mentioned, including Amazon's new stores, self-driving cars, and targeted ads.
- cjslep 9y ago
  > If anything, we're the first generations growing up with a concept of what privacy really means. This is a kind of historical revisionism that I don't like that inflates the self-importance of the now merely because we don't know how things will turn out in the future. During the founding of the United States, privacy was very much a central issue. In fact, the Third (third!) Amendment to the Constitution was to prevent the invasion of privacy by an armed soldier of the government literally being imposed on a family's residence, and Fourth Amendment protected a person's privacy against unreasonable search and seizure. Yes computers are a novel twist, but to suppose no one back then "really understood what privacy means" I find to be a form of ignorance bordering on historical condescension.

ShabbosGoy 9y ago

This comment is something an apologist of surveillance would write. Yes, it is a surveillance powered store. That’s what it literally is. Just like Alexa and Google Home are literal always-on listening devices in your home. Edit: A bit more context in case someone misunderstands. New technology can improve one’s life exponentially. But it is simulataneously capable of exacting great harm.

volgo 9y ago
Everything in modern society is "surveillanced". The highways you drive on (highway cameras), the news sites you read (ad tracking), the dollars you make (IRS). Someone somewhere knows these things. Specifically pointing out something is "surveillance-powered" without context is agenda-driven.
- ShabbosGoy 9y ago
  I agree, but we have to be careful not to give a pass to our industry to do whatever they want. And it isn’t necessarily agenda-driven by TechCrunch. As you said, they are ads/analytics based. So it follows that they will produce content that gets maximum eyeballs.
- mlevental 9y ago
  surveiled
hbosch 9y ago
Your cell phone and computer are also an always-on listening devices, but we don't call Apple "surveillance powered".
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- kuschku 9y ago
  We should call everything that is constantly listening to us "surveillance powered". Anything that is recorded can be abused in the future.

amrrs 9y ago

Almost every large Retail store has a lot of Stuff going on with Video Analytics (eg: Store Front). With this one, Amazon has just upgraded the retail benchmark and ported their digital KPIs to Retail store. I think this is no way worse/stronger than Amazon.com tracking (except your faces show up).

dannyw 9y ago

If this is done by a startup that TechCrunch’s “partner VC” has invested in, I doubt it would have this cynical agenda-driven tone.

SilasX 9y ago

It’s inflammatory, but imho a valid concern — Amazon is probably going to link all your purchases there with your profile on Amazon, so it’s quite a leap in how much it enhances their ability to surveil you — while tempting you with the discounts that such detail enables.

cheeze 9y ago
Is this all that different from say... a Safeway/Kroger/whaeverTheEastCoastHas rewards card?
- SilasX 9y ago
  In degree, yes — Kroger doesn’t have a longstanding separate profile of a big chunk of your online purchases and preferences.

nikkwong 9y ago

Yeah, at least Amazon took the seemingly obvious step of painting all objects in the ceiling black as to at least attempt to mask their surveillance. I sort of hate looking towards the ceiling at stores like Target which have those black domes which contrast so hard against their white ceilings dispersed every 5 ft. It being so noticeable makes it feel all the creepier.

joezydeco 9y ago
As anti-theft devices, being visible is the entire idea. Want to bet some don't even have cameras in them?

nerfhammer 9y ago

Is communication without outrage even possible in the modern age?

sAbakumoff 9y ago

...in exchange to having the full access to your offline shopping experience. I say fuck you Amazon, I'm ok to check out as usual.

methodin 9y ago

I'm not really sure what other avenues one can go down that isn't powered by surveillance that takes the "ease" factor to the next level. Literally without humans there you have computers and the computers have to know who you are. What other possible outcomes are there?

hndamien 9y ago
Monero is one new technology that is increasing privacy significantly in an important way. I can't think of many others since they all have large downsides in delivering a better service. Brave for advertising perhaps. I can't think of anything else.

clhodapp 9y ago

Well... I think you're right that the headline is pretty biased. I also think that it's kind of reasonable to be a bit stressed out that the entry level for the labor market is about to get a whole lot higher as robots become more affordable and sophisticated. I know I'm changing the subject a bit but I think that it is reasonable to bring this up because I think that in a lot of cases, people are willing to accept pretty much any demonization of things that scare them, which I think the news media is aware of.

Sylos 9y ago

I don't know what else you'd want to call it. It does use surveillance technology and does invade privacy a lot more than normal convenience stores. Not using the word "surveillance" here would in my opinion be more biased than using it. The store just is what it is, whether you want to be excited about this new technology or not.