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Amazon’s surveillance-powered no-checkout convenience store

88 points by beefman 9y ago

userbinator 9y ago
One thing I didn't seem to find any mention of in the article is what happens if you take an item off the shelf to inspect it and then put it back --- or misplace it somewhere else, as often happens with other stores? Hopefully the system can determine that you've left product behind, since otherwise it would negate one of the huge advantages of having a physical store: you can inspect and select before buying.
- ChadMoran 9y ago
  https://www.amazon.com/go https://www.amazon.com/go there's a helpful video EDIT: To explicitly state it. It handles that. It has a "vritual cart" as you pick things up and put them back. Disclosure: I work for Amazon but have no affiliation with the Amazon Go program.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - dx034 9y ago
    What if it's so crowded that no camera sees the object as you put it back? Is there a limit on the max number of shoppers?
- themagician 9y ago
  They cover this a bit in the NYT article. The system knows if you put something back—or rather it seems that it makes sure it always knows what’s in your possession. I don’t think it’s necessarily looking at the shelves as much as it’s constanly trying to determine what objects are associated with each person.
  - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
    So often folks put it back anywhere - bananas lying in the canned food rack etc. Haven't we all seen that?
volgo 9y ago
It's strange that news organizations take such a cynical tone with new technology. Really? "Surveillance-powered convenience store"? Are we suppose to call TechCrunch a "surveillance-powered ad powerhouse"? Or Tesla "surveillance-powered vehicles"? All stores are already equipped with security cameras to prevent theft. When you're in someone's shop, you don't have an expectation of privacy. Amazon merely took it one more step and made it easier for you to checkout.
- zajd 9y ago
  > Are we suppose to call TechCrunch a "surveillance-powered ad powerhouse"? Or Tesla "surveillance-powered vehicles"? Yes and ignoring the fact that we're baking in surveillance to almost every aspect of our life is a problem society needs to address
  - duckMuppet 9y ago
    An entire generation has now grown up with the idea that this level of surveillance is not only ok, it's actually odd to think differently. What's worse is the level of govt surveillance, after all i can just, not go to the creepy Amazon store.. In just a few short years, people who have never known life without the patriot act or the fear and anxiety of walking into an airport unmolested will be voting. I agree with you in principal. But I'm far less hopeful that meaningful solutions will come. After all, it's not been them that has enacted these secret courts, fisa, patriot act, ndaa, weaponizing govt ( irs, fbi, dhs, ...), that's been their role models, us. All in the name of safety.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - thinkloop 9y ago
      Part of the OP's point is that there currently are cameras in almost every store, and then you provide your identity by credit card at the end. It's not that much creepier than now.
  - 9y ago
dpweb 9y ago
I go to a 7 11 down the street. There is a guy in there that works the checkout. He always greets everyone with the biggest smile youve ever seen and I find myself feeling a little better as I leave. When I get outside I think to myself, this guy probably does that to every single customer for at least 8 hrs a day. For how much reward? Then I think a little about automation, eat my donut, and head to work.
- prawn 9y ago
  At my usual supermarket, there's a checkout operator who is so awkward people actively avoid him and prefer queues over his emptier lane. With a largely automated shop, we lose out on human contact, but then the same applies with online shopping too. On the other hand, I think we'll eventually recall those crazy days where there were checkout operators tallying products. Already when I visit the States, I find it bizarre when there is second person bagging products! The first time I went to China (1991), the department store checkout operators used an abacus to sum sales. Even when they had a cash register, they used it purely for the cash drawer and still favoured the abacus! Eventually, I think the majority of people will actually not actively make purchasing decisions in entire categories. Choosing and shopping yourself will be a premium thing. In the future, I can see a large swathe of people taking cheaper subscriptions whereby they are delivered products decided by algorithm.
dingo_bat 9y ago
> Our roughly 1,800 square feet of retail space is conveniently compact so busy customers can get in and out fast. Isn't this a bit small for a store? The tiny 2 bedroom apartment I live in is 1400sqft.
- hbosch 9y ago
  It's a convenience store, not a grocery store.
- jakobegger 9y ago
  In what part of the world is 1400sqft considered tiny? That is 130m^2, which would be considered a pretty decent size appartement here in Austria. You don‘t find many appartments as big as that in a city here. (We‘re a family of 4, and we live in a 80m^2 appartement)
  - dingo_bat 9y ago
    I'm in Bangalore and live with my wife. Compared to what our parents, we always complain about how small our living space is. They have lived their lives in small towns/villages in houses with nice large rooms and huge backyards, all of which is only a pipe dream for us now in our 21st storey pigeon-hole. I always assumed European countries with their lower population densities would be inclined towards larger living spaces than us. Seems like that may not be generally true.
    - jobigoud 9y ago
      I had to go look up average apartment size in Bangalore to make sure you had the correct number. 130m² is a pretty large apartment size in Europe. We live in 70m² and find it decently sized. And I work remotely so I'm in it all day long. We pay 800€/month, it would be much higher if we were closer to a city center. We have a bedroom and a study, even two small bathrooms. It does have a backyard that is not counted I in the size. Most people I know live in similarly sized apartments.
  - Simon_says 9y ago
saas_co_de 9y ago
In the wild this tech will get ripped to shreds. The exploits will be endless. And the interesting question is: is it really shoplifting if their system fails to register the sale? Not really, so it is open season.
- 794CD01 9y ago
  >is it really shoplifting if their system fails to register the sale? Why wouldn't it be shoplifting here if it is at any other store? If the cashiers and loss prevention officers don't notice you walking out with merchandise in your pocket, is it somehow worse because their eyes and brains are made of flesh instead of plastic and metal?
  - dannyw 9y ago
    Well, you don’t know what the system registers until you walk out and get an email receipt a couple of minutes later.
    - prawn 9y ago
      And for a shopping list of more than a handful of items, even reviewing the receipt wouldn't necessarily mean you spot things that were missed.
    - 794CD01 9y ago
      True. That sounds like a fine excuse for the accidental cases. When you are deliberately making an attempt to deceive the system, that is where it crosses the line.
  - dx034 9y ago
    It's the same as if you give an item to the cashier and the cashier fails to scan it. I don't think that's shoplifting.
    - 794CD01 9y ago
      If you are presenting your items to the system normally and they fail to register it, yes. If you are hiding the item in your jacket or cart to deliberately avoid the cashier's attention, that is shoplifting.
seanwilson 9y ago
Will this actually work? How is this going to be reliable with arms, hands, clothes, other people and other products blocking the view of the cameras? I wonder why they didn't put cameras in the shopping basket instead. At least then it would always have a clear view of items going in and out.
- discoursism 9y ago
  Do you think they would have opened it if they didn't have a pretty high degree of confidence that it was working? It's been in beta for quite some time. There are better places to steal from than those with massive numbers of cameras pointed at you from all directions.
  - Flammy 9y ago
    I think the bigger deterrence is to get in the front door they already have your name, address, and card on file. That said, several articles have mentioned Amazon intentionally is NOT using facial recognition as part of the tech.
    - discoursism 9y ago
      I'm not referring to facial recognition. I'm saying if you shoplift, they are going to be able to provide the cops with video evidence, and they will know who you are.
      - dx034 9y ago
        The bigger problem is if they overcharge too many customers. Having to complain afterwards because it lists items you didn't buy eliminates the advantages of faster checkouts.
        discoursism 9y ago
        That's very true. And if they are not confident about their predictions then it might be difficult to push back when people fraudulently claim to not have purchased something.
Animats 9y ago
BingoBox has had automated convenience stores in China for months now.[1][2] They're about the size of a shipping container. Amazon is coming from behind here. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vIt0lTcqaw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vIt0lTcqaw [2] https://youtu.be/l7DLmBYk6c8 https://youtu.be/l7DLmBYk6c8
- wsgreen 9y ago
  Very different tech stack and UX in these products. BingoBox still requires users to scan their own groceries. It's basically the self-checkout line in Safeway.
  - Animats 9y ago
    They check visually at the door to see if you took something you shouldn't. It's not airtight, but it's enough to prevent abuse.
MarkMc 9y ago
I don't see what is so cynical about 'surveillance-powered convenience store's. Having surveillance in a store doesn't have any negative connotation for me, and 'surveillance-powered' is a good way to describe what makes this store unique
imron 9y ago
Once they've ironed out the tech, they will certainly roll this out to Wholefoods. Your margin is Amazon's opportunity.
- jobigoud 9y ago
  Wholefoods has a lot of produce and grains sold by weight. I wonder how that will work.
  - culturestate 9y ago
    On-scale displays with dynamic QR codes that you scan with the app, I'd guess. NFC would be neater, but that would limit device compatibility.
  - imron 9y ago
    The system knows the weight of the grain container before the customer takes any grain. It also knows the weight of the container after the customer takes some, so it's not too hard to figure out how much was taken. There will be exceptions where this is not the case (e.g. grain accidentally spills), but it will work 99.9% of the time, and then as the article mentions, for the other times there will be an attendant to sort out any issues.
bambax 9y ago
> It’s a bit overkill, I think, to replace a checker or self-checkout stand with a hundred cameras that unblinkingly record every tiny movement. What’s to gain? 20 or 30 seconds of your time back? My thoughts exactly. What's the point of all this? What is the problem that they're trying to solve? Also, the monitoring done in that kind of store is very different from security monitoring systems we have today, because it knows who it's watching. The fact that it doesn't use facial recognition is pointless since it has your identity and account # the minute you enter the store. It can study you: not just what you buy, but how you think. I'm also curious if it would work with how I shop. Usually in small supermarkets I put my bag or trolley in one corner of the shop and bring products back to it. It's maybe a little inefficient but it lets me walk unencumbered. Would it know my bag is mine?
- tinokid 9y ago
  Agreed. we'll see if it catches on. Existing stores could catch up a lot by improving the self checkout experience. Perhaps add a super-express method for single items with e-receipt only.
- jakobegger 9y ago
  I would love this! I usually go shopping with a backpack, and in a store like this I could put stuff into my backpack directly from the shelf, rather than trying to put all my items into my bag as quickly as possible at the checkout counter with half a dozen impatient people behind me.
- justonepost 9y ago
  Also, shoplifting. 1.7% of gross sales, which given 2% profit margins, you can see how profit can almost double with this. It's a 32B dollar opportunity. Economy of scale will also help reduce worker costs.
- rtpg 9y ago
  An optimists view: being a cashier is not a great job, so we can make sure that nobody ever has to do it again. (Supposedly this view is combined with basic income or something)
joosters 9y ago
So the system requires each subsection of a shelf to have a working weight sensor? Is that really do-able in a shop where the general public will be repeatedly knocking, bashing and generally ill-treating it? Most regular stores that I've been in will have plenty of wonky looking shelves, broken shelf tickets and so on... If a sensor fails, presumably Amazon is going to lose track of, or at least, lose accuracy in tracking of, some product. The cameras aren't a foolproof backup for this (since, if they were, why bother with the complexity and expense of weight sensors at all?) To me it suggests that these stores are going to need a hell of a lot of maintenance.
- wastedhours 9y ago
  I'd agree, but we already have the imperfect ones you get from self-service checkouts, and they work a decent enough amount of the time they might suffice? It's the more human element that'll be interesting to me - you see people pick something up and put it back in the wrong place all of the time. Just think about the poor staffer who'll get the "item in the wrong place" ping through their headset every 30 seconds. Am assuming Amazon will use skeleton crews to run these, so they'll be rushed just picking up the pieces (quite literally).
  - joosters 9y ago
    The self-service checkouts is a good point - but in my experience at least 10% of those are regularly out of service, and they are large systems that are meant to be robust. I can't see how that will scale up to thousands of product lines. As you say though, the staff will probably be far more busy replacing items...
justonepost 9y ago
Folks, all stores have cameras surveying shoppers. I challenge you to find a store that does not.
- cheeze 9y ago
  Not just cameras. They have agents on the ground spying on you too! Or... they have a security team who monitors cameras and have loss prevention specialists roaming the store. Depends on how you want to spin the wording.
- bkor 9y ago
  Loads of stores in Netherlands don't have camera's. It's super easy to find _loads_ of stores without them.
  - justonepost 9y ago
    Well, that's the netherlands. :)
- mlevental 9y ago
  surveiling
- hackerbrother 9y ago
  But all stores don't have the data-storing and machine-learning capabilities of Amazon. Very possibly, a customer in an Amazon Go store will have images and distinct features of their physical likeness stored by Amazon and linked to their Amazon account. This is much different in spirit than Costco's security cameras, for example.
- Sylos 9y ago
  I'm pretty sure this kind of use of surveillance cameras/data wouldn't be legal in the EU, so that's why you might see lots of people who are more enraged by this than they supposedly should be... You're allowed to put up surveillance cameras and record things, but if you actually want to check the recordings, then there's requirements. The exact requirements probably differ between countries, but I imagine you need at least a well-founded belief that you've been robbed in all of them. And even just for that use-case, you need to put up signs that make it evident that customers are being surveilled. For something like this Amazon Go store, you'd probably need people to sign a disclaimer to ensure that they've understood what they're getting themselves into. And you might have to allow an opt-out clause, so that people can choose to not be surveilled and then check out normally. That last part isn't yet in EU law, I don't think, but with the upcoming General Data Protection Regulation (25th May) it is, or at least it's going to be hard to argue that you don't have to allow opt-out. The relevant part of the regulation is section 4 in this: https://gdpr-info.eu/art-7-gdpr/ https://gdpr-info.eu/art-7-gdpr/
joosters 9y ago
The entrance turnstiles make the shop look very family-unfriendly. How do you go shopping with kids? Or just while out with a friend?
usermcuserface 9y ago
Something I've not seen an answer to in any article about this concept: I'm slightly above average height, so occasionally people somewhat below average height ask me to reach things down from high shelves in supermarkets. What happens if I do that in an Amazon Go shop?
- Sylos 9y ago
  More questions somewhat in this same vein: Can you take your family with you? What happens, if your 5-year-old grabs his favorite sweet and brings it up to you to ask you whether he can have it? Can you put things back into the shelves?
Asdfbla 9y ago
If the future of grocery shopping is between grocery delivery that you order over the Internet (linked to your account and browsing habits) or using such a surveillance store, the privacy implications are probably not that different either way. Privacy is already in a bad enough state that stores like that probably don't make a big difference anymore either. They are just more creepy because commerce exclusive to the 'real world' seemed like the last safe haven for privacy (provided you were able to pay in cash and didn't use loyalty cards or other offline cookies). I also can't help but think that they just put those employees there for PR reasons. No matter how Amazon tries to spin it, a majority of jobs will be lost. Maybe that's inevitable, but then we should face it instead of pretending you can just put them somewhere else in your automated store.
losteverything 9y ago
Anyone know if prices are on items? On shelves? On app screen? And are the same for each customer?
mythrwy 9y ago
Cameras seem like such a crude expensive approach to doing this. And there has to be exploitable holes. Recently was watching a Western movie where a person goes into a shop. The goods are all behind the counter. The person points out what they want, the clerk retrieves it. Big vending machines with phone interface possibly. Maybe a full shelf as shown in photo behind wire or glass and a robotic arm like the ones seen in Amazon warehouses. That way people can kick the screen and curse when the robotic arm fails to deliver the correct good and no clerks are harmed in the process.
JoeAltmaier 9y ago
Imagine the exploits! A crowd of high school kids, milling in a tight group, grabbing bottles of wine and putting back bottles of water from under their coats, trading items around, taking cheap cans from one rack and swapping them in for expensive caviar etc on another rack. It boggles the mind.
- intopieces 9y ago
  Alcohol requires an attendee to check ID before being taken from the shelf. There are other employees on site to monitor, answer questions and restock. You seem to have the impression that no checkout == no employees. This is not the case.
  - dx034 9y ago
    But if employees still check for accuracy, is the system really faster than a normal supermarket? Can imagine it being only slightly faster for a much higher price. Might work in the beginning when everyone wants to try it but I doubt it can appeal to a wider range of people.
  - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
    Thus the crowd - not really monitorable. And weren't the monitors just for the press event? Wasn't clear to me.
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  So you start banning people and make people scan ID or have security check it before you're allowed in.

88 points by beefman 9y ago

One thing I didn't seem to find any mention of in the article is what happens if you take an item off the shelf to inspect it and then put it back --- or misplace it somewhere else, as often happens with other stores? Hopefully the system can determine that you've left product behind, since otherwise it would negate one of the huge advantages of having a physical store: you can inspect and select before buying.

ChadMoran 9y ago
https://www.amazon.com/go https://www.amazon.com/go there's a helpful video EDIT: To explicitly state it. It handles that. It has a "vritual cart" as you pick things up and put them back. Disclosure: I work for Amazon but have no affiliation with the Amazon Go program.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- dx034 9y ago
  What if it's so crowded that no camera sees the object as you put it back? Is there a limit on the max number of shoppers?
themagician 9y ago
They cover this a bit in the NYT article. The system knows if you put something back—or rather it seems that it makes sure it always knows what’s in your possession. I don’t think it’s necessarily looking at the shelves as much as it’s constanly trying to determine what objects are associated with each person.
- JoeAltmaier 9y ago
  So often folks put it back anywhere - bananas lying in the canned food rack etc. Haven't we all seen that?

volgo 9y ago

It's strange that news organizations take such a cynical tone with new technology. Really? "Surveillance-powered convenience store"? Are we suppose to call TechCrunch a "surveillance-powered ad powerhouse"? Or Tesla "surveillance-powered vehicles"? All stores are already equipped with security cameras to prevent theft. When you're in someone's shop, you don't have an expectation of privacy. Amazon merely took it one more step and made it easier for you to checkout.

zajd 9y ago
> Are we suppose to call TechCrunch a "surveillance-powered ad powerhouse"? Or Tesla "surveillance-powered vehicles"? Yes and ignoring the fact that we're baking in surveillance to almost every aspect of our life is a problem society needs to address
- duckMuppet 9y ago
  An entire generation has now grown up with the idea that this level of surveillance is not only ok, it's actually odd to think differently. What's worse is the level of govt surveillance, after all i can just, not go to the creepy Amazon store.. In just a few short years, people who have never known life without the patriot act or the fear and anxiety of walking into an airport unmolested will be voting. I agree with you in principal. But I'm far less hopeful that meaningful solutions will come. After all, it's not been them that has enacted these secret courts, fisa, patriot act, ndaa, weaponizing govt ( irs, fbi, dhs, ...), that's been their role models, us. All in the name of safety.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - thinkloop 9y ago
    Part of the OP's point is that there currently are cameras in almost every store, and then you provide your identity by credit card at the end. It's not that much creepier than now.
- 9y ago

dpweb 9y ago

I go to a 7 11 down the street. There is a guy in there that works the checkout. He always greets everyone with the biggest smile youve ever seen and I find myself feeling a little better as I leave. When I get outside I think to myself, this guy probably does that to every single customer for at least 8 hrs a day. For how much reward? Then I think a little about automation, eat my donut, and head to work.

prawn 9y ago
At my usual supermarket, there's a checkout operator who is so awkward people actively avoid him and prefer queues over his emptier lane. With a largely automated shop, we lose out on human contact, but then the same applies with online shopping too. On the other hand, I think we'll eventually recall those crazy days where there were checkout operators tallying products. Already when I visit the States, I find it bizarre when there is second person bagging products! The first time I went to China (1991), the department store checkout operators used an abacus to sum sales. Even when they had a cash register, they used it purely for the cash drawer and still favoured the abacus! Eventually, I think the majority of people will actually not actively make purchasing decisions in entire categories. Choosing and shopping yourself will be a premium thing. In the future, I can see a large swathe of people taking cheaper subscriptions whereby they are delivered products decided by algorithm.

dingo_bat 9y ago

> Our roughly 1,800 square feet of retail space is conveniently compact so busy customers can get in and out fast. Isn't this a bit small for a store? The tiny 2 bedroom apartment I live in is 1400sqft.

hbosch 9y ago
It's a convenience store, not a grocery store.
jakobegger 9y ago
In what part of the world is 1400sqft considered tiny? That is 130m^2, which would be considered a pretty decent size appartement here in Austria. You don‘t find many appartments as big as that in a city here. (We‘re a family of 4, and we live in a 80m^2 appartement)
- dingo_bat 9y ago
  I'm in Bangalore and live with my wife. Compared to what our parents, we always complain about how small our living space is. They have lived their lives in small towns/villages in houses with nice large rooms and huge backyards, all of which is only a pipe dream for us now in our 21st storey pigeon-hole. I always assumed European countries with their lower population densities would be inclined towards larger living spaces than us. Seems like that may not be generally true.
  - jobigoud 9y ago
    I had to go look up average apartment size in Bangalore to make sure you had the correct number. 130m² is a pretty large apartment size in Europe. We live in 70m² and find it decently sized. And I work remotely so I'm in it all day long. We pay 800€/month, it would be much higher if we were closer to a city center. We have a bedroom and a study, even two small bathrooms. It does have a backyard that is not counted I in the size. Most people I know live in similarly sized apartments.
- Simon_says 9y ago

saas_co_de 9y ago

In the wild this tech will get ripped to shreds. The exploits will be endless. And the interesting question is: is it really shoplifting if their system fails to register the sale? Not really, so it is open season.

794CD01 9y ago
>is it really shoplifting if their system fails to register the sale? Why wouldn't it be shoplifting here if it is at any other store? If the cashiers and loss prevention officers don't notice you walking out with merchandise in your pocket, is it somehow worse because their eyes and brains are made of flesh instead of plastic and metal?
- dannyw 9y ago
  Well, you don’t know what the system registers until you walk out and get an email receipt a couple of minutes later.
  - prawn 9y ago
    And for a shopping list of more than a handful of items, even reviewing the receipt wouldn't necessarily mean you spot things that were missed.
  - 794CD01 9y ago
    True. That sounds like a fine excuse for the accidental cases. When you are deliberately making an attempt to deceive the system, that is where it crosses the line.
- dx034 9y ago
  It's the same as if you give an item to the cashier and the cashier fails to scan it. I don't think that's shoplifting.
  - 794CD01 9y ago
    If you are presenting your items to the system normally and they fail to register it, yes. If you are hiding the item in your jacket or cart to deliberately avoid the cashier's attention, that is shoplifting.

seanwilson 9y ago

Will this actually work? How is this going to be reliable with arms, hands, clothes, other people and other products blocking the view of the cameras? I wonder why they didn't put cameras in the shopping basket instead. At least then it would always have a clear view of items going in and out.

discoursism 9y ago
Do you think they would have opened it if they didn't have a pretty high degree of confidence that it was working? It's been in beta for quite some time. There are better places to steal from than those with massive numbers of cameras pointed at you from all directions.
- Flammy 9y ago
  I think the bigger deterrence is to get in the front door they already have your name, address, and card on file. That said, several articles have mentioned Amazon intentionally is NOT using facial recognition as part of the tech.
  - discoursism 9y ago
    I'm not referring to facial recognition. I'm saying if you shoplift, they are going to be able to provide the cops with video evidence, and they will know who you are.
    - dx034 9y ago
      The bigger problem is if they overcharge too many customers. Having to complain afterwards because it lists items you didn't buy eliminates the advantages of faster checkouts.
      - discoursism 9y ago
        That's very true. And if they are not confident about their predictions then it might be difficult to push back when people fraudulently claim to not have purchased something.

Animats 9y ago

BingoBox has had automated convenience stores in China for months now.[1][2] They're about the size of a shipping container. Amazon is coming from behind here. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vIt0lTcqaw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vIt0lTcqaw [2] https://youtu.be/l7DLmBYk6c8 https://youtu.be/l7DLmBYk6c8

wsgreen 9y ago
Very different tech stack and UX in these products. BingoBox still requires users to scan their own groceries. It's basically the self-checkout line in Safeway.
- Animats 9y ago
  They check visually at the door to see if you took something you shouldn't. It's not airtight, but it's enough to prevent abuse.

MarkMc 9y ago

I don't see what is so cynical about 'surveillance-powered convenience store's. Having surveillance in a store doesn't have any negative connotation for me, and 'surveillance-powered' is a good way to describe what makes this store unique

imron 9y ago

Once they've ironed out the tech, they will certainly roll this out to Wholefoods. Your margin is Amazon's opportunity.

jobigoud 9y ago
Wholefoods has a lot of produce and grains sold by weight. I wonder how that will work.
- culturestate 9y ago
  On-scale displays with dynamic QR codes that you scan with the app, I'd guess. NFC would be neater, but that would limit device compatibility.
- imron 9y ago
  The system knows the weight of the grain container before the customer takes any grain. It also knows the weight of the container after the customer takes some, so it's not too hard to figure out how much was taken. There will be exceptions where this is not the case (e.g. grain accidentally spills), but it will work 99.9% of the time, and then as the article mentions, for the other times there will be an attendant to sort out any issues.

bambax 9y ago

> It’s a bit overkill, I think, to replace a checker or self-checkout stand with a hundred cameras that unblinkingly record every tiny movement. What’s to gain? 20 or 30 seconds of your time back? My thoughts exactly. What's the point of all this? What is the problem that they're trying to solve? Also, the monitoring done in that kind of store is very different from security monitoring systems we have today, because it knows who it's watching. The fact that it doesn't use facial recognition is pointless since it has your identity and account # the minute you enter the store. It can study you: not just what you buy, but how you think. I'm also curious if it would work with how I shop. Usually in small supermarkets I put my bag or trolley in one corner of the shop and bring products back to it. It's maybe a little inefficient but it lets me walk unencumbered. Would it know my bag is mine?

tinokid 9y ago
Agreed. we'll see if it catches on. Existing stores could catch up a lot by improving the self checkout experience. Perhaps add a super-express method for single items with e-receipt only.
jakobegger 9y ago
I would love this! I usually go shopping with a backpack, and in a store like this I could put stuff into my backpack directly from the shelf, rather than trying to put all my items into my bag as quickly as possible at the checkout counter with half a dozen impatient people behind me.
justonepost 9y ago
Also, shoplifting. 1.7% of gross sales, which given 2% profit margins, you can see how profit can almost double with this. It's a 32B dollar opportunity. Economy of scale will also help reduce worker costs.
rtpg 9y ago
An optimists view: being a cashier is not a great job, so we can make sure that nobody ever has to do it again. (Supposedly this view is combined with basic income or something)

joosters 9y ago

So the system requires each subsection of a shelf to have a working weight sensor? Is that really do-able in a shop where the general public will be repeatedly knocking, bashing and generally ill-treating it? Most regular stores that I've been in will have plenty of wonky looking shelves, broken shelf tickets and so on... If a sensor fails, presumably Amazon is going to lose track of, or at least, lose accuracy in tracking of, some product. The cameras aren't a foolproof backup for this (since, if they were, why bother with the complexity and expense of weight sensors at all?) To me it suggests that these stores are going to need a hell of a lot of maintenance.

wastedhours 9y ago
I'd agree, but we already have the imperfect ones you get from self-service checkouts, and they work a decent enough amount of the time they might suffice? It's the more human element that'll be interesting to me - you see people pick something up and put it back in the wrong place all of the time. Just think about the poor staffer who'll get the "item in the wrong place" ping through their headset every 30 seconds. Am assuming Amazon will use skeleton crews to run these, so they'll be rushed just picking up the pieces (quite literally).
- joosters 9y ago
  The self-service checkouts is a good point - but in my experience at least 10% of those are regularly out of service, and they are large systems that are meant to be robust. I can't see how that will scale up to thousands of product lines. As you say though, the staff will probably be far more busy replacing items...

justonepost 9y ago

Folks, all stores have cameras surveying shoppers. I challenge you to find a store that does not.

cheeze 9y ago
Not just cameras. They have agents on the ground spying on you too! Or... they have a security team who monitors cameras and have loss prevention specialists roaming the store. Depends on how you want to spin the wording.
bkor 9y ago
Loads of stores in Netherlands don't have camera's. It's super easy to find _loads_ of stores without them.
- justonepost 9y ago
  Well, that's the netherlands. :)
mlevental 9y ago
surveiling
hackerbrother 9y ago
But all stores don't have the data-storing and machine-learning capabilities of Amazon. Very possibly, a customer in an Amazon Go store will have images and distinct features of their physical likeness stored by Amazon and linked to their Amazon account. This is much different in spirit than Costco's security cameras, for example.
Sylos 9y ago
I'm pretty sure this kind of use of surveillance cameras/data wouldn't be legal in the EU, so that's why you might see lots of people who are more enraged by this than they supposedly should be... You're allowed to put up surveillance cameras and record things, but if you actually want to check the recordings, then there's requirements. The exact requirements probably differ between countries, but I imagine you need at least a well-founded belief that you've been robbed in all of them. And even just for that use-case, you need to put up signs that make it evident that customers are being surveilled. For something like this Amazon Go store, you'd probably need people to sign a disclaimer to ensure that they've understood what they're getting themselves into. And you might have to allow an opt-out clause, so that people can choose to not be surveilled and then check out normally. That last part isn't yet in EU law, I don't think, but with the upcoming General Data Protection Regulation (25th May) it is, or at least it's going to be hard to argue that you don't have to allow opt-out. The relevant part of the regulation is section 4 in this: https://gdpr-info.eu/art-7-gdpr/ https://gdpr-info.eu/art-7-gdpr/

joosters 9y ago

The entrance turnstiles make the shop look very family-unfriendly. How do you go shopping with kids? Or just while out with a friend?

usermcuserface 9y ago

Something I've not seen an answer to in any article about this concept: I'm slightly above average height, so occasionally people somewhat below average height ask me to reach things down from high shelves in supermarkets. What happens if I do that in an Amazon Go shop?

Sylos 9y ago
More questions somewhat in this same vein: Can you take your family with you? What happens, if your 5-year-old grabs his favorite sweet and brings it up to you to ask you whether he can have it? Can you put things back into the shelves?

Asdfbla 9y ago

If the future of grocery shopping is between grocery delivery that you order over the Internet (linked to your account and browsing habits) or using such a surveillance store, the privacy implications are probably not that different either way. Privacy is already in a bad enough state that stores like that probably don't make a big difference anymore either. They are just more creepy because commerce exclusive to the 'real world' seemed like the last safe haven for privacy (provided you were able to pay in cash and didn't use loyalty cards or other offline cookies). I also can't help but think that they just put those employees there for PR reasons. No matter how Amazon tries to spin it, a majority of jobs will be lost. Maybe that's inevitable, but then we should face it instead of pretending you can just put them somewhere else in your automated store.

losteverything 9y ago

Anyone know if prices are on items? On shelves? On app screen? And are the same for each customer?

mythrwy 9y ago

Cameras seem like such a crude expensive approach to doing this. And there has to be exploitable holes. Recently was watching a Western movie where a person goes into a shop. The goods are all behind the counter. The person points out what they want, the clerk retrieves it. Big vending machines with phone interface possibly. Maybe a full shelf as shown in photo behind wire or glass and a robotic arm like the ones seen in Amazon warehouses. That way people can kick the screen and curse when the robotic arm fails to deliver the correct good and no clerks are harmed in the process.

JoeAltmaier 9y ago

Imagine the exploits! A crowd of high school kids, milling in a tight group, grabbing bottles of wine and putting back bottles of water from under their coats, trading items around, taking cheap cans from one rack and swapping them in for expensive caviar etc on another rack. It boggles the mind.

intopieces 9y ago
Alcohol requires an attendee to check ID before being taken from the shelf. There are other employees on site to monitor, answer questions and restock. You seem to have the impression that no checkout == no employees. This is not the case.
- dx034 9y ago
  But if employees still check for accuracy, is the system really faster than a normal supermarket? Can imagine it being only slightly faster for a much higher price. Might work in the beginning when everyone wants to try it but I doubt it can appeal to a wider range of people.
- JoeAltmaier 9y ago
  Thus the crowd - not really monitorable. And weren't the monitors just for the press event? Wasn't clear to me.
lotsofpulp 9y ago
So you start banning people and make people scan ID or have security check it before you're allowed in.