8 ms·
Norway as a destination for tech founders
- dogma1138 9y agoWith the cost of employemnt and lack of VCs I doubt they would be very successful.
- robert_foss 9y agoWhat a useless article.
- nkkollaw 9y agoSure. So that you can run out of money in 1 mo. instead of 6 in S.F. :-/ Startups that need to prove their value proposition before the money runs out should come to Poland. Very techy (Warsaw, Wroclaw in particular), and you have 2 years instead of 6 months (or 1) because of the extremely low cost of living. As a plus, really cheap beer and beautiful women.
- always_good 9y agoMexico has the advantage of beaches and a few hour plane ride from the States to visit your loved ones. And better weather and an easier language. Poland is certainly a great place as well. As I get older though it's nice being a 2 hour plane ride from my aging parents in Texas.
- nkkollaw 9y agoIf we're talking about North America, sure--if there are a lot of devs and not a lot of crime (no idea).
- Kpourdeilami 9y agoAnother very good option in North America is the Kitchener-Waterloo region in Ontario. Pros: - Significantly lower rent (~640 USD/mo for a one bedroom apartment in one of the safest neighbourhoods of Waterloo) - Low crime rate and very safe - Access to talent that has experience working for SV companies (facebook, google, amazon, apple, etc.) - Active 24/7. Even at 4am in the morning, there are students walking home from the library. - You don't have to learn a new language Cons: - Bad weather - An hour drive to the international airport in Toronto - Nothing else to do in the city other than working - Public transit only runs until midnight
- nkkollaw 9y agoI'd pick that over Mexico any day.
- tytytytytytytyt 9y agoMexico also has a bonus 'do not travel' advisory in 5 states, for those seeking that extra bit of excitement.
- cpursley 9y agoWhat part of Mexico are you based out of? What download speeds are you seeing?
- culturestate 9y agoIf I were looking somewhere in the Americas I'd probably choose Chile for some of the same reasons you mentioned. Santiago is a great town, relatively safe, and Chile has probably the most stable government in Central / South America. It doesn't fit the short flight criteria, but it's better than going Oslo to Dallas.
- masonic 9y agocome to Poland. How realistic is that for non-EU nationals and non-Polish speakers? Do you know of success stories?
- nkkollaw 9y agoSorry, as the topic was Norway I was only talking about Europe. As for the language, I'm Italian working with devs and I've yet to find any dev that doesn't speak English fluently. Not the same for regular people, but not sure about Norway, either.
- foobiekr 9y agoI worked on site with a dev team in Sopot for a few weeks. While really nice guys, their English was not very good. The frigid temperatures by October were also an issue.
- nkkollaw 9y agoYou have to go to semi-major, techy cities. I'm in Wroclaw and it's perfect for startups, Warsaw for huge corporations. They even speak English among themselves.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- _delirium 9y agoMaybe surprisingly, Norway is cheaper than SF for many people. (Not as cheap as Poland, of course.) Admittedly, a lot of consumer goods are more expensive in Norway than SF (especially alcohol). But rent is lower, even in Oslo, which is likely to be many people's biggest expense. Also, health insurance is included in the tax rate instead of a separate expense.
- charlesdm 9y agoRent might be lower, but taxes are much higher, making it much harder to come up with the cash required to pay rent from salary. If you're not a first-timer, but someone with a previous exit and some capital under your belt, then there is the wealth tax to deal with.
- _delirium 9y agoIf you're already rich, yeah, that's a different scenario, then you have a whole wealth-planning thing to think about. If we're talking about a startup founder making more in the neighborhood of low 6 figures, though, taxes are basically a wash between Norway and SF, and cheaper in Norway if you take into account that it includes health insurance while the US taxes don't. For me, what taxes I'd pay if I exited with a fabulously wealthy payday are more in the "Maserati problem" category, but ymmv. Putting in $100k into a Norwegian [1] and CA [2] tax calculator, for example, at that particular income they coincidentally come out almost identical: about $32k (~32% effective rate) in both cases. In Norway it's one central tax at the effective rate of 32%. In SF it's the sum of: 18% federal, 7.65% payroll, 6.3% state. [1] https://skattekalkulator.app.skatteetaten.no/ https://skattekalkulator.app.skatteetaten.no/ [2] https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator
- dfee 9y agoI would like to find a place that claims it has less than beautiful women. "Well, that's the news from Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average."
- nkkollaw 9y ago> I would like to find a place that claims it has less than beautiful women. I mean, it's preference. I'm from Italy and no matter what you might say or have heard, women up north and central Italy are not that sexy in general, often wearing jeans and hoddies and not taking good care of the way they look. They're also not that friendly, and as girlfriends, wives and in particular mothers are a pain in the ass. American girls you might find abroad or in major cities are usually sexy, take care of themselves, and are friendly. I was married to an American for a few years and lived in Miami for 3 years Turkish, Albanian, Romanian women--for instance--are definitely less attractive than other places I've been. As for Poland, they always look very nice, and are generally friendly. I'm currently dating a woman from Poland for 3 years. Of course, we're generalizing and I'm talking from my very limited experience, there are beautiful women everywhere (or ugly, for that matter), people's taste is different, etc. etc. I know that here when you go anywhere it's hard to find one I wouldn't date if I didn't have a girlfriend!
- mlevental 9y agolike color me impressed but this is some serious chauvinism. how come no one flags this or complains about it as vociferously as they do about sjws? in my opinion (not humble at all) this stuff should be treated exactly like if it were racist slurring.
- nkkollaw 9y agoOh, give me a break--seriously. It's a trend of our times to get offended for everything, to the point that one can't say anything without being politically incorrect and having somebody complain. Can I have an opinion and express it? I didn't say that a black person's brain is smaller or other dumb stuff like that, I just said that women look differently across the world, and I find some of those different features more attractive than others. You know, it's normal for others to say things you might not like or agree with, it doesn't mean you have to flag them.
- jackaroe78 9y agoAnd a pretty great bunch of 8-bit Atari enthusiasts to boot! (not a startup, but still really look forward to visiting someday)
- balladeer 9y agoHow is the rent scene there? And the general cost of living - for a graduate student? Is English sufficient to live by as it is in say Germany and NL, at least for initial six months or so? Thinking of keeping it as an option for my MS.
- siquick 9y agoThe vast majority of people in the Netherlands speak fluent English.
- yazr 9y agoWhats the English-speaking situation in these cities ? Can you get by with just English for the first year and the first 10 employees ?
- nkkollaw 9y agoAbsolutely. I don't speak Polish and I was able to open a company, find an accountant, hire help.
- doug1001 9y agoi lived for two years in Oslo, Norway, but also spent time in Bergen in Stavanger (west coast). it's a beautiful country, but for a start-up? I have my doubts. i have also lived in the Bay Area; live here now in fact. Norway is the most expensive country i have ever lived in or visited--more than SF, more than Manhattan, perhaps about the same as Tokyo, although i have only made brief visits there for work. Taxes are insanely high: income tax is on the level as Switzerland; VAT is 24.5%. Petrol prices are the highest in any country i have ever driven in. lastly, working start-up hours (or even normal hours) is not easy during the months of October through February when daylight's non-existent or negligible
- matwood 9y ago> Norway is the most expensive country i have ever lived in or visited I visited Scandinavia (Bergen was one of my stops) a couple of summers back, and between the currency conversion and prices it was easily the most expensive place I have ever been. It's an amazingly beautiful area, but I doubt I'll ever go back because of the prices. I remember sitting in a restaurant in Stockholm and commenting that maybe the prices would go down some in Norway, and a couple next to us started laughing. The other couple then explained not only were they not going down, but they are going up.
- piva00 9y agoYup, I live in Stockholm and almost wherever I travel I feel my money is worth more than at home (that includes cities like Amsterdam, Munich, etc., so quite expensive places), the only exceptions have been Oslo and anywhere in Switzerland. My gosh, it hurt a bit paying for €8-10 shitty beers or €6 cappuccinos at the train stations.
- e_b 9y agoTokyo is or can be significantly less expensive. It's just that you'll live in a smaller apartment of lower standard.
- discordance 9y ago
- netsharc 9y agoThe author seems to ramble a bit about how amazing Norway is, and then seems to use the article to talk to the PM on a first name basis. Does he know her personally, or would I be correct to assume he's a condescending jackass?
- Sytten 9y agoI personally worked in Denmark in a young startup. I believe conditions are similar to Norway. I found that the tech scene is very much alive and you can find VC quite easily if you don't limit yourself to the country. The Nordic countries are well connected and it is easy to get funded by Swedish VC for example while being located in Denmark. It's also very easy to do business in the EU. Has for the taxes, yes they are high, but you need to consider the high quality of life you get in return. It is better than even Canada where I am from. Stressed and unhappy employees are not going to perform well. I also felt there was a common goal in the company, that I wasn't just a necessary "resource" needed by the company. This is very different from the North American way.
- rdtsc 9y ago> Stressed and unhappy employees are not going to perform well I like the sound of that. But I wonder why aren't there more startups then?
- balladeer 9y agoMaybe because starting a startup itself comes with the baggage of stress and unhappiness - so people, in general, are less inclined to take it up in the first place? I work at a startup in India and see how the founders are always busy and manage just 4-5 hrs of sleep at best and I've heard it was way worse in the beginning. So this doesn't paint a rosy picture. In fact I gave up on doing my own start up dream just because of this - I figured the stress and pressure isn't something I can handle or is worth the sacrifice for me. (By the way, my friend and colleague started the venture with two other people and it's doing "okay" - it's been just two years. PS - I don't regret it, from what I saw I knew I would not have been able to handle it; add the cash issue for almost 9 months - they literally lived on shoestring) So if for someone (and I am not alone of course) who is from a country where work life conditions checks, rules that ensure a healthy work-life balance, or ensure work place safety[0] are non existent - and pretty much zero employee rights for all practical purposes, it would be even more unappealing to someone from a place like Norway where people take these things for granted. Now, what I am talking about is the general, I am sure there are exceptions everywhere. [0] Yes, for e.g. pretty much every tech park building I have worked in in Bangalore if there was a fire either a lot of people would die in stampede, jumping from the windows, or actually in fire. Such safety checks were a joke 10 yrs ago and they still are.
- jijji 9y agoGas prices in Norway are 3.5x what they are in the u.s. Everything in Norway is about 3x the price of the u.s. Most parts of Norway are rural, even simple things are a far away drive. The people are nice, but to say that everyone speaks english over there is also a stretch. Maybe 25% speak english, if that. You also have to pay to use the bathroom. It is also very cold there most of the year. Money does go very fast over there, the fastest I have seen in any country. Is it good for a startup? If money is your concern, then no IMHO. Sorry for telling the truth because I've lived there... :) Maybe you can find a way to delete this post and keep all the flowery ones.
- lobster_johnson 9y agoNorwegian here who currently lives in the US. About everything in your comment sounds wrong to me, except for the statement that gas is more expensive. English has been part of the mandatory elementary school curriculum since 1974, and I would say that pretty much everyone knows English quite well except for a minority of older people in rural areas. Norway being a cold, wintery country is something of a fantasy. The climate is much milder than you might except from the latitude. It's not very different from New England, though summers are not quite as hot.
- sjwright 9y agoI’ve only been there for shorter periods, but the only people I met who didn’t speak English were other tourists from non-English speaking countries. Every single local I met spoke English fluently. You pay a few cents to use bathrooms, but in return you get very clean and pleasant services. I wish I could pay for bathrooms in some other cities.
- Oberbaumbrucke 9y agoI'm sure the wealth tax of ca 1% of your net worth per year and the weather would put off a fair few people for making the move.
- CRidge 9y agoThat would be my one major drawback against starting up here in Norway. I've seen calculations of how companies like Facebook would fare if they started up in Norway, and it wasn't pretty. You pay tax on the value of your shares, even if the company isn't making money... However, for start-ups that aren't looking to have hundreds of millions of users/customers before breaking even, it is still worth a shot!
- olavgg 9y agoI'm from Norway and working for a startup. You do not have to pay tax for the value of your shares, but for the assets that the company own. For a tech startup that means laptops and workstations.
- dawhizkid 9y agoI found Oslo boring and expensive. A half pint of beer was $11 and a mediocre dish at an average restaurant will set you back at least $20.
- usaphp 9y agoAnd it’s cold as well.