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"Pushed out" is an odd narrative for an industry that is bending over backwards to try and draw more women in. Is it even possible that women (on average) are l

"Pushed out" is an odd narrative for an industry that is bending over backwards to try and draw more women in. Is it even possible that women (on average) are less interested in tech work and thus have chosen (on aggregate) to pursue other careers instead? It seems like even asking that question is forbidden. Why is the same level of angst not applied to education, where <20% of primary school teachers are male? Have the public schools been pushing men out, or are men just not interested? Or maybe it's some of both? Do we even know?

pwinnski 9y ago
If primary school teacher was a valued (well-paid) position, I think we'd be having that very discussion. Historically in the US, teachers were men, and computer programmers were women. As teachers shifted more toward women, and as computer programmers shifted more toward men, the compensation for teachers dropped, while the compensation for computer programmers skyrocketed. The correlation is strong, although causation is debatable. It's no surprise that the efforts to achieve gender balance in a highly-paid industry gets a lot more attention than any gender-imbalance in a lowly-paid industry. Put another way: men weren't too upset about being pushed out of teaching positions because they were able to make better money elsewhere.
- jon_e_pizza 9y ago
  > The correlation is strong, although causation is debatable. I'm sorry, are you trying to say market wages are set in some grand conspiracy? Software pays well because software companies tend to be very profitable. Since the engineers that make said software are a limited resource, they gain leverage against the profit they are needed to create, and wages rise. Teachers are paid out of public funds, there is no profit pool to share. > It's no surprise that the efforts to achieve gender balance in a highly-paid industry gets a lot more attention than any gender-imbalance in a lowly-paid industry. It is surprising to me. Public school teachers will always be paid less than programmers, this is the constant of public/private. Saying that fact justifies not examining the mirror ratio in the teaching industry is insane. There are about 3x as many grade school teachers in this country as their are software engineers, and it's pretty obvious what influence they have on our next generation. Much more so than the vague words I get about 'representation' and 'perspective' when talking about the supposed issue in software. You have to really want men to be in the wrong to pick software out of these two industries. > Put another way: men weren't too upset about being pushed out of teaching positions because they were able to make better money elsewhere. Seriously, there's no grand conspiracy. Men aren't an organized interchangeable mass that wants to put you down. If men are turned out of teaching those men don't suddenly become qualified engineers. These are different men. I don't know why this is so hard for you to grasp, but we're individuals.
  - pwinnski 9y ago
    Your condescension is unnecessary. I never suggested there is a grand conspiracy. I stated that as a career ends up with more women in it, wages drop. It doesn't take a central planning or a conspiracy of any kind for that to be true. It takes only a dominant trend of valuing the work of women less than the work of men, which is what the evidence supports.[0] "The national average starting teacher salary is $36,141, while the average teacher salary in America (non-starting) is $56,383."[1] "The Labor Department reports that software developers made a median salary of $100,080 in 2016. The highest-paid 10 percent in the profession earned $157,590 in 2016, while the lowest-paid earned $58,300."[2] If a hypothetical group of people find that they are largely excluded from both careers, it seems reasonable to think they would be more upset about being excluded from the one that pays roughly twice as much. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over... [1] https://articles.niche.com/teacher-salaries-in-america/ https://articles.niche.com/teacher-salaries-in-america/ [2] https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-developer https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-develope...
    - solarkraft 9y ago
      This may have to do with women tending to be less selfish/aggressive negotiators.
    - tomp 9y ago
      You keep implying that somehow, sexism is the cause. What if the wages simply fall as more people enter a field? Then, maybe men become more demotivated to work in that field, and seek other, better opportunities? To me, that's the simplest explanation.

pwinnski 9y ago

If primary school teacher was a valued (well-paid) position, I think we'd be having that very discussion. Historically in the US, teachers were men, and computer programmers were women. As teachers shifted more toward women, and as computer programmers shifted more toward men, the compensation for teachers dropped, while the compensation for computer programmers skyrocketed. The correlation is strong, although causation is debatable. It's no surprise that the efforts to achieve gender balance in a highly-paid industry gets a lot more attention than any gender-imbalance in a lowly-paid industry. Put another way: men weren't too upset about being pushed out of teaching positions because they were able to make better money elsewhere.

jon_e_pizza 9y ago
> The correlation is strong, although causation is debatable. I'm sorry, are you trying to say market wages are set in some grand conspiracy? Software pays well because software companies tend to be very profitable. Since the engineers that make said software are a limited resource, they gain leverage against the profit they are needed to create, and wages rise. Teachers are paid out of public funds, there is no profit pool to share. > It's no surprise that the efforts to achieve gender balance in a highly-paid industry gets a lot more attention than any gender-imbalance in a lowly-paid industry. It is surprising to me. Public school teachers will always be paid less than programmers, this is the constant of public/private. Saying that fact justifies not examining the mirror ratio in the teaching industry is insane. There are about 3x as many grade school teachers in this country as their are software engineers, and it's pretty obvious what influence they have on our next generation. Much more so than the vague words I get about 'representation' and 'perspective' when talking about the supposed issue in software. You have to really want men to be in the wrong to pick software out of these two industries. > Put another way: men weren't too upset about being pushed out of teaching positions because they were able to make better money elsewhere. Seriously, there's no grand conspiracy. Men aren't an organized interchangeable mass that wants to put you down. If men are turned out of teaching those men don't suddenly become qualified engineers. These are different men. I don't know why this is so hard for you to grasp, but we're individuals.
- pwinnski 9y ago
  Your condescension is unnecessary. I never suggested there is a grand conspiracy. I stated that as a career ends up with more women in it, wages drop. It doesn't take a central planning or a conspiracy of any kind for that to be true. It takes only a dominant trend of valuing the work of women less than the work of men, which is what the evidence supports.[0] "The national average starting teacher salary is $36,141, while the average teacher salary in America (non-starting) is $56,383."[1] "The Labor Department reports that software developers made a median salary of $100,080 in 2016. The highest-paid 10 percent in the profession earned $157,590 in 2016, while the lowest-paid earned $58,300."[2] If a hypothetical group of people find that they are largely excluded from both careers, it seems reasonable to think they would be more upset about being excluded from the one that pays roughly twice as much. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over... [1] https://articles.niche.com/teacher-salaries-in-america/ https://articles.niche.com/teacher-salaries-in-america/ [2] https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-developer https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-develope...
  - solarkraft 9y ago
    This may have to do with women tending to be less selfish/aggressive negotiators.
  - tomp 9y ago
    You keep implying that somehow, sexism is the cause. What if the wages simply fall as more people enter a field? Then, maybe men become more demotivated to work in that field, and seek other, better opportunities? To me, that's the simplest explanation.