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> We started our hiring reboot by analyzing where we were spending our hiring time and effort. Perhaps not surprisingly, we were spending time at colleges and u

> We started our hiring reboot by analyzing where we were spending our hiring time and effort. Perhaps not surprisingly, we were spending time at colleges and universities based on past experience, rather than their percentage of female computer science undergraduate majors. The national average of female computer science degree graduates is 18%.2 We made a decision to revisit our typical list of schools and only visit the universities that had more than 18% of female undergraduate computer science majors. More or less "We realized we were looking solely at candidate performance when we were selecting a candidate pool. That wasn't producing the warm fuzzies, so we ignored our best indications of candidate performance, and instead hired from a pool that made us feel good about our arbitrary political goal while hopefully just stopping short of illegal discrimination.".

tomlock 9y ago
> They also came up with other great ideas, including adding a tool that automates the first coding task and removes a candidate’s identifying information. This doesn't really fit that narrative.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  That's great and all, but why go to the trouble of finding a politics-oriented candidate pool, instead of a performance-oriented one if removing identifying information and automating the first prescreening task (among other things) are the meat of the operation? It seems like they sorta quickly move past the questionable candidate selection process to talk about the stuff they can be more proud of.
- tomp 9y ago
  Hm... I wonder what the influence of that process was. I.e. how does the outgoing percentages (50:50) compare with the incoming percentages? The article doesn't say, but unless it's also 50:50, their process is still biased / sexist, possibly even more than at companies that don't achieve a 50:50 outcome.
- jon_e_pizza 9y ago
  Correct, because they're trying to mislead you: > They also came up with other great ideas, including adding a tool that automates the first coding task and removes a candidate’s identifying information. Based on the feedback, we’ve implemented a number of changes to our internal process for recruiting. At no point do they say they implemented removing candidate information. They say it was suggested, and then _separately_ they state they implemented a number of changes. You can't randomly pick 50:50 out of 18:82 and they very much didn't.
eganist 9y ago
Or, the correct perspective: "we realized we were contributing to the problem of inadequately motivating women to re-enter the programming workforce¹ through our selection of candidates from schools which likewise perpetuated the problem, so we switched to hiring from institutions which were also investing towards balancing the talent pool, with the goal of creating a positive feedback loop motivating more corporations to do the same, and therefore motivating more schools to aim to diversify their software engineering recruitment efforts." ¹ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programming-used-to-be-womens-work-718061/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programmi...
- microcolonel 9y ago
  > likewise perpetuated the problem I think before you say that the highest performing schools "perpetuated the problem", you're going to need to substantiate that. > https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programming-used-to-be-womens-work-718061/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programmi... . I haven't thought about this topic for a while, but an analysis I heard goes a bit like this: Typist used to be a "woman's job" as well. My understanding is that the job was split. What you would call programmers today were typically called "architects" or similar. Lumping them all together you obviously get a serious skew toward women because considerably more technicians/programmers (where the ratio favours women, but not exclusively) were required for computers of the time (trailing off through the '80s as stored program computers became the hotness) than architects/designers (where the ratio favours men, but not exclusively).
  - eganist 9y ago
    > I think before you say that the highest performing schools "perpetuated the problem", you're going to need to substantiate that. I don't actually believe so given that the source link did so for me. The problem was substantiated in Duolingo's own metrics and reasoning for switching, the problem in this case being that their traditional college talent pools were overly biased towards men -- well, colleges select their own students. :)
FeistyOtter 9y ago
> For the purpose of this post, we are referring to male and female genders, although we recognize that many other genders exist. https://apath.org/63-genders/ https://apath.org/63-genders/ It's a good thing that there are even more fuzzy feelings in the future: whopping 63 genders to hire equally!
- jgh 9y ago
  Edgy.
curiousgal 9y ago
I don't see why you're being downvoted. They literally say > We secured the best new graduates for software engineering roles, but we noticed something: they were all male. So they did decide to look pass candidate performance. The problem is that they are bragging about simply hiring more females, anyone can do that. How the company will perform as result of that is what matters and they didn't address that at all.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  > The problem is that they are bragging about simply hiring more females, anyone can do that. How the company will perform as result of that is what matters and they didn't address that at all. The other rather interesting thing is that they seem to have introduced all of these measures at the same time; so they won't actually be able to analyze or compare the performance outcomes for a given year. The people who like the policies will say they're working great, but the year just didn't produce as many hires which turned out well (except perhaps through candidates from the schools which they did not remove from the list).
- achompas 9y ago
  > So they did decide to look pass candidate performance. Not quite. Your quote is missing context: they hired the best candidates from the schools they visited. That’s not the set of all schools, though! They tried to correct this by visiting schools whose CS demographics more closely match the general population.
  - curiousgal 9y ago
    They also say > this meant going to some never-before-visited schools as well as cutting out a few schools that had been on our list before They wouldn't have eliminated those schools if the new schools produced better candidates.
    - achompas 9y ago
      Great catch, I missed that. EDIT: Wait, I rushed and misread your comment. Why wouldn't they eliminate these schools if the new schools produced better candidates? I would imagine it was the opposite: remove schools because the new schools produce better candidates, and time is finite.
reureu 9y ago
> so we ignored our best indications of candidate performance Judging from the number of "tech hiring process is broken" posts I see on HN, it seems pretty dubious to claim that existing indicators of candidate performance are actually measuring what they claim to be. So, if you look at the situation from that point of view, then there's no reason to elevate existing metrics to anything higher than "meh, maybe it's measuring something."
aphextron 9y ago
Can it be possible that there are more relevant skills to software engineering than pure coding ability? The best people I have worked with in my career were not the few “rockstar” geniuses, but the rank and file developers with good communication skills and work ethic who strive to make everyone else’s lives easier.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  > Can it be possible that there are more relevant skills to software engineering than pure coding ability? The best people I have worked with in my career were not the few “rockstar” geniuses, but the rank and file developers with good communication skills and work ethic who strive to make everyone else’s lives easier. Those personality traits are part of performance as well; a combination of diligence and intelligence tends to predict both job and academic performance. You can be a genius, but you're not in that pool if you aren't willing to do the work.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    I find that suspect; I know there are people with something called "work ethic", but for those of us lacking such characteristic, our willing to do the work depends on the work itself (plus the surrounding environment) - and that can be quite different between college and the workplace. For example, I'd say I'm a better worker than a student.
rdlecler1 9y ago
That’s not necessarily the case. (1) They can still sort rank by quality of institution within the subgroup. (2) I also suspect that outside of top 10 CS programs, that universities sort ranked by proportion of women tend to have higher quality candidates than average. (3) If you build a repudiation for attracting female talent then you may be more likely to attract some of the top women in a given pool—women who might normally go to FANG. Personally, I think the last reason provides an arbitrage opportunity that let’s small companies that focus on women compete for talent in a way that FANG can not.

tomlock 9y ago

> They also came up with other great ideas, including adding a tool that automates the first coding task and removes a candidate’s identifying information. This doesn't really fit that narrative.

microcolonel 9y ago
That's great and all, but why go to the trouble of finding a politics-oriented candidate pool, instead of a performance-oriented one if removing identifying information and automating the first prescreening task (among other things) are the meat of the operation? It seems like they sorta quickly move past the questionable candidate selection process to talk about the stuff they can be more proud of.
tomp 9y ago
Hm... I wonder what the influence of that process was. I.e. how does the outgoing percentages (50:50) compare with the incoming percentages? The article doesn't say, but unless it's also 50:50, their process is still biased / sexist, possibly even more than at companies that don't achieve a 50:50 outcome.
jon_e_pizza 9y ago
Correct, because they're trying to mislead you: > They also came up with other great ideas, including adding a tool that automates the first coding task and removes a candidate’s identifying information. Based on the feedback, we’ve implemented a number of changes to our internal process for recruiting. At no point do they say they implemented removing candidate information. They say it was suggested, and then _separately_ they state they implemented a number of changes. You can't randomly pick 50:50 out of 18:82 and they very much didn't.

eganist 9y ago

Or, the correct perspective: "we realized we were contributing to the problem of inadequately motivating women to re-enter the programming workforce¹ through our selection of candidates from schools which likewise perpetuated the problem, so we switched to hiring from institutions which were also investing towards balancing the talent pool, with the goal of creating a positive feedback loop motivating more corporations to do the same, and therefore motivating more schools to aim to diversify their software engineering recruitment efforts." ¹ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programming-used-to-be-womens-work-718061/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programmi...

microcolonel 9y ago
> likewise perpetuated the problem I think before you say that the highest performing schools "perpetuated the problem", you're going to need to substantiate that. > https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programming-used-to-be-womens-work-718061/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programmi... . I haven't thought about this topic for a while, but an analysis I heard goes a bit like this: Typist used to be a "woman's job" as well. My understanding is that the job was split. What you would call programmers today were typically called "architects" or similar. Lumping them all together you obviously get a serious skew toward women because considerably more technicians/programmers (where the ratio favours women, but not exclusively) were required for computers of the time (trailing off through the '80s as stored program computers became the hotness) than architects/designers (where the ratio favours men, but not exclusively).
- eganist 9y ago
  > I think before you say that the highest performing schools "perpetuated the problem", you're going to need to substantiate that. I don't actually believe so given that the source link did so for me. The problem was substantiated in Duolingo's own metrics and reasoning for switching, the problem in this case being that their traditional college talent pools were overly biased towards men -- well, colleges select their own students. :)

FeistyOtter 9y ago

> For the purpose of this post, we are referring to male and female genders, although we recognize that many other genders exist. https://apath.org/63-genders/ https://apath.org/63-genders/ It's a good thing that there are even more fuzzy feelings in the future: whopping 63 genders to hire equally!

jgh 9y ago
Edgy.

curiousgal 9y ago

I don't see why you're being downvoted. They literally say > We secured the best new graduates for software engineering roles, but we noticed something: they were all male. So they did decide to look pass candidate performance. The problem is that they are bragging about simply hiring more females, anyone can do that. How the company will perform as result of that is what matters and they didn't address that at all.

microcolonel 9y ago
> The problem is that they are bragging about simply hiring more females, anyone can do that. How the company will perform as result of that is what matters and they didn't address that at all. The other rather interesting thing is that they seem to have introduced all of these measures at the same time; so they won't actually be able to analyze or compare the performance outcomes for a given year. The people who like the policies will say they're working great, but the year just didn't produce as many hires which turned out well (except perhaps through candidates from the schools which they did not remove from the list).
achompas 9y ago
> So they did decide to look pass candidate performance. Not quite. Your quote is missing context: they hired the best candidates from the schools they visited. That’s not the set of all schools, though! They tried to correct this by visiting schools whose CS demographics more closely match the general population.
- curiousgal 9y ago
  They also say > this meant going to some never-before-visited schools as well as cutting out a few schools that had been on our list before They wouldn't have eliminated those schools if the new schools produced better candidates.
  - achompas 9y ago
    Great catch, I missed that. EDIT: Wait, I rushed and misread your comment. Why wouldn't they eliminate these schools if the new schools produced better candidates? I would imagine it was the opposite: remove schools because the new schools produce better candidates, and time is finite.

reureu 9y ago

> so we ignored our best indications of candidate performance Judging from the number of "tech hiring process is broken" posts I see on HN, it seems pretty dubious to claim that existing indicators of candidate performance are actually measuring what they claim to be. So, if you look at the situation from that point of view, then there's no reason to elevate existing metrics to anything higher than "meh, maybe it's measuring something."

aphextron 9y ago

Can it be possible that there are more relevant skills to software engineering than pure coding ability? The best people I have worked with in my career were not the few “rockstar” geniuses, but the rank and file developers with good communication skills and work ethic who strive to make everyone else’s lives easier.

microcolonel 9y ago
> Can it be possible that there are more relevant skills to software engineering than pure coding ability? The best people I have worked with in my career were not the few “rockstar” geniuses, but the rank and file developers with good communication skills and work ethic who strive to make everyone else’s lives easier. Those personality traits are part of performance as well; a combination of diligence and intelligence tends to predict both job and academic performance. You can be a genius, but you're not in that pool if you aren't willing to do the work.
- icebraining 9y ago
  I find that suspect; I know there are people with something called "work ethic", but for those of us lacking such characteristic, our willing to do the work depends on the work itself (plus the surrounding environment) - and that can be quite different between college and the workplace. For example, I'd say I'm a better worker than a student.

rdlecler1 9y ago

That’s not necessarily the case. (1) They can still sort rank by quality of institution within the subgroup. (2) I also suspect that outside of top 10 CS programs, that universities sort ranked by proportion of women tend to have higher quality candidates than average. (3) If you build a repudiation for attracting female talent then you may be more likely to attract some of the top women in a given pool—women who might normally go to FANG. Personally, I think the last reason provides an arbitrage opportunity that let’s small companies that focus on women compete for talent in a way that FANG can not.