10 ms·

Boris Johnson proposes a 22-mile bridge across the Channel

23 points by igravious 9y ago

tomgp 9y ago
Attention grabbing fool
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  Yes, although I wouldn't completely dismiss the idea just because it came from him.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
    But you can dismiss the idea because you can already take your car across the channel. OK, it goes into a train that goes in a tunnel under the channel, but this scheme has the virtue of being real and usable today. It I am told that it's running at around 54% percent capacity. It's approximately half-empty. There's competition from ferries too. And that's before Brexit lowers demand. There is no economic case for another highly expensive crossing. Funding the channel tunnel more would be easier and produce faster results. https://twitter.com/Ben_e_lux/status/954467087975673857 https://twitter.com/Ben_e_lux/status/954467087975673857
    - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
      And that's before Brexit lowers demand. We don't really know that, Eurotunnel have stated they don't think it will have an effect. There is no economic case for another highly expensive crossing. We don't really know that either, there is a time cost to using the tunnel, perhaps demand would go up if it was easier.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
        > there is a time cost to using the tunnel, perhaps demand would go up if it was easier. There's a time cost to everything. The trains in the tunnel travel up to "160 kilometres per hour (99 mph)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel Is there a reasonable suggestion that other options would be faster between equivalent points?
        tonyedgecombe 9y ago
        Have you travelled on it, because you can't just drive up and get straight on.
        SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
        > Have you travelled on it, Yes, more times than I can count on fingers. As a seated passenger and on a vehicle. As a seated passenger: if you find Kings Cross easy to get to, it's very convenient, and much faster and more relaxing than all the attendant faff of a short flight from an airport. In a vehicle: I get that there are onloading / offloading delays, which is why I'd like to see numbers before I form an opinion on which would be faster, the existing tunnel or hypothetical bridge.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
        > Eurotunnel have stated they don't think it will have an effect. > Eurostar: "should the UK leave the customs union... these new customs obligations would be very difficult to put in place in the restricted space available in stations, and would make our current cargo business (Eurodespatch) economically unviable. ... Divergence between UK and EU rules... would lead to significant cost and complexity for our business. Depending on the nature of any differences between systems, it may not be possible to operate either from an economic or practical standpoint." Honestly, "we don't think it will have an effect" is not the message that I take home from that. https://mobile.twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/954286948520267776 https://mobile.twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/954286948520...
- SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
  Boris Johnson has a knack for ideas that sound good and distract from bad news. He would like to be inspiring, but he falls short with these pie-in-the-sky projects. This one will be forgotten in a few weeks, along with the bad news that would otherwise have been on the front pages.
twic 9y ago
At least Boris is fixated on absurd bridges that will never be built, not walls. A brief response from a structural engineer: https://theconversation.com/boris-johnsons-english-channel-bridge-an-engineering-experts-view-90409 https://theconversation.com/boris-johnsons-english-channel-b...
- gaius 9y ago
  Artificial islands, he likes those too. And why not, the UK used to do megascale engineering at the drop of a hat. Now we can't even do railways.
  - igravious 9y ago
    A response from the Telegraph. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/lists/worlds-longest-bridges/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/lists/worlds-longest-bridg... For comparison they show the following list. Where | Length in kilometres Danyang–Kunshan Grand Bridge, China 165 Changhua-Kaohsiung Viaduct, Taiwan 157 Tianjin Grand Bridge, China 114 Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macau Bridge, China 55 Bang Na Expressway, Thailand 54 Lake Pontchartrain Causeway, USA 38 > 'Boris Bridge', UK-France 35 In light of all these other megastructures the proposed Boris Bridge doesn't sound too unreasonable? Considering the two economies it would link… Linking Ireland and the UK, that'd be another matter entirely.
    - pouetpouet 9y ago
      The Danyang-Kunshan is mainly over land. It's an elevated railway line. It does cross the Yangcheng Lake, but that part is only 9km long. It's not a suspended bridge, there are piles every 80m. Not suitable for heavy maritime traffic. The lake has an average depth of 2m. https://www.lakepedia.com/lake/yangcheng.html https://www.lakepedia.com/lake/yangcheng.html It's not comparable as a channel crossing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danyang%E2%80%93Kunshan_Grand_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danyang%E2%80%93Kunshan_Grand_... Likewise the depth of Jiaozhou bay is 10 to 15m. The channel is 45m deep between Calais and Dover (the shortest and shallowest crossing). Moreover the strait of Dover (or Pas de Calais in french) is the busiest shipping lane in the world http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/22/article-2636152-1E1A483000000578-594_964x516.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/22/article-2636152-1E...
dasmoth 9y ago
I’m a little surprised that a road link didn’t get at least slightly more serious consideration when the existing tunnel was planned. Certainly, in light of recent politics, I can’t help thinking that a road link would make “middle England” feel connected to Europe in a way no amount of rail traffic can.
- rwmj 9y ago
  Plans for a long bridge were considered, eg: https://youtu.be/r_HN26VVXAk?t=9m15s https://youtu.be/r_HN26VVXAk?t=9m15s I also remember at the time a (pretty crazy) plan for a partial road bridge going out for a few miles from each side that then turned into a tunnel by way of a long corkscrew-style descent under the sea. I can't imagine that would have been practical ... Edit: Wikipedia has the details. Apparently the bridge plan was called "Eurobridge", and I wasn't imagining the bridge/tunnel hybrid either, it was called "Euroroute". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel#Initiation_of_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel#Initiation_of_p... Edit #2: Euroroute video: https://amisduvieuxcalais.com/index.php/calais-video/calais-en-video https://amisduvieuxcalais.com/index.php/calais-video/calais-...
  - schoen 9y ago
    Apparently the combination of bridge and tunnel to cross a body of water has been used quite successfully in several places: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge%E2%80%93tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge%E2%80%93tunnel I don't know if it would have been helpful in this case, though.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  Sitting on a rail car sounds a lot more pleasant than driving through a tunnel for 30-60 minutes. Do you think there is enough demand to justify a road link in addition to the vehicle transport trains?
  - dazc 9y ago
    There is certainly demand for more freight capacity; the ferries seem to be the biggest problem with regular delays. When these delays occur it's not unusual for the serving motorway to double as make-shift lorry park. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Stack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Stack For regular passenger cars, I'm not so sure as it's mostly holiday traffic. Most people travelling for business would use the Eurostar (a regular passenger express) and I don't see much complaints about the capacity of this?
dazc 9y ago
'Building a huge concrete structure in the middle of the world’s busiest shipping lane might come with some challenges.' https://twitter.com/ukshipping/status/954132391127339008 https://twitter.com/ukshipping/status/954132391127339008 I'm not against major infrastructure projects but there must be 100 more suitable ideas for improving links within the UK, never mind Europe.
- swimfar 9y ago
  There are tall bridges designed to allow large ships to pass underneath. I'm not sure how that affects the cost, though. There's one in Saint-Nazaire, France (which has a large ship building industry) which crosses the Loire river. It looks pretty cool. https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A1jl:Pont-Mindin.jpg https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A1jl:Pont-Mindin.jpg
  - scrumbledober 9y ago
    you don't need the entire bridge to be tall either, the San Mateo Bridge is eight and a half miles long and only raises up high enough for ships to pass for a short portion on the western side where I believe the water is deepest.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
      > the San Mateo Bridge is eight and a half miles long and only raises up high enough for ships to pass for a short portion > (the channel is) the world’s busiest shipping lane > the biggest ships on the ocean. Spot the problem with the "short portion" idea.
hinkley 9y ago
Johnson has previously promoted the idea of another Channel Tunnel but is now said to think a bridge could also be possible, telling aides that such feats of engineering have been achieved in Japan. The 20 mile bridge he seems to be alluding to is in China, ladies and gentlemen. The longest bridge in Japan is 2.4 miles long. (That Japanese bridge has the longest suspension span, but I don’t see how he would call that solved)
ysr23 9y ago
<sighs> the man practically defined the 'dead cat strategy': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_cat_strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_cat_strategy thats all this is, thats all he ever does.
amriksohata 9y ago
Im not a Boris fan but this was one of the options proposed when the channel tunnel was built, so I don't know why people think it's absurd

23 points by igravious 9y ago

tomgp 9y ago

Attention grabbing fool

tonyedgecombe 9y ago
Yes, although I wouldn't completely dismiss the idea just because it came from him.
- SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
  But you can dismiss the idea because you can already take your car across the channel. OK, it goes into a train that goes in a tunnel under the channel, but this scheme has the virtue of being real and usable today. It I am told that it's running at around 54% percent capacity. It's approximately half-empty. There's competition from ferries too. And that's before Brexit lowers demand. There is no economic case for another highly expensive crossing. Funding the channel tunnel more would be easier and produce faster results. https://twitter.com/Ben_e_lux/status/954467087975673857 https://twitter.com/Ben_e_lux/status/954467087975673857
  - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
    And that's before Brexit lowers demand. We don't really know that, Eurotunnel have stated they don't think it will have an effect. There is no economic case for another highly expensive crossing. We don't really know that either, there is a time cost to using the tunnel, perhaps demand would go up if it was easier.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
      > there is a time cost to using the tunnel, perhaps demand would go up if it was easier. There's a time cost to everything. The trains in the tunnel travel up to "160 kilometres per hour (99 mph)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel Is there a reasonable suggestion that other options would be faster between equivalent points?
      - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
        Have you travelled on it, because you can't just drive up and get straight on.
        SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
        > Have you travelled on it, Yes, more times than I can count on fingers. As a seated passenger and on a vehicle. As a seated passenger: if you find Kings Cross easy to get to, it's very convenient, and much faster and more relaxing than all the attendant faff of a short flight from an airport. In a vehicle: I get that there are onloading / offloading delays, which is why I'd like to see numbers before I form an opinion on which would be faster, the existing tunnel or hypothetical bridge.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
      > Eurotunnel have stated they don't think it will have an effect. > Eurostar: "should the UK leave the customs union... these new customs obligations would be very difficult to put in place in the restricted space available in stations, and would make our current cargo business (Eurodespatch) economically unviable. ... Divergence between UK and EU rules... would lead to significant cost and complexity for our business. Depending on the nature of any differences between systems, it may not be possible to operate either from an economic or practical standpoint." Honestly, "we don't think it will have an effect" is not the message that I take home from that. https://mobile.twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/954286948520267776 https://mobile.twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/954286948520...
SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
Boris Johnson has a knack for ideas that sound good and distract from bad news. He would like to be inspiring, but he falls short with these pie-in-the-sky projects. This one will be forgotten in a few weeks, along with the bad news that would otherwise have been on the front pages.

twic 9y ago

At least Boris is fixated on absurd bridges that will never be built, not walls. A brief response from a structural engineer: https://theconversation.com/boris-johnsons-english-channel-bridge-an-engineering-experts-view-90409 https://theconversation.com/boris-johnsons-english-channel-b...

gaius 9y ago
Artificial islands, he likes those too. And why not, the UK used to do megascale engineering at the drop of a hat. Now we can't even do railways.
- igravious 9y ago
  A response from the Telegraph. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/lists/worlds-longest-bridges/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/lists/worlds-longest-bridg... For comparison they show the following list. Where | Length in kilometres Danyang–Kunshan Grand Bridge, China 165 Changhua-Kaohsiung Viaduct, Taiwan 157 Tianjin Grand Bridge, China 114 Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macau Bridge, China 55 Bang Na Expressway, Thailand 54 Lake Pontchartrain Causeway, USA 38 > 'Boris Bridge', UK-France 35 In light of all these other megastructures the proposed Boris Bridge doesn't sound too unreasonable? Considering the two economies it would link… Linking Ireland and the UK, that'd be another matter entirely.
  - pouetpouet 9y ago
    The Danyang-Kunshan is mainly over land. It's an elevated railway line. It does cross the Yangcheng Lake, but that part is only 9km long. It's not a suspended bridge, there are piles every 80m. Not suitable for heavy maritime traffic. The lake has an average depth of 2m. https://www.lakepedia.com/lake/yangcheng.html https://www.lakepedia.com/lake/yangcheng.html It's not comparable as a channel crossing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danyang%E2%80%93Kunshan_Grand_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danyang%E2%80%93Kunshan_Grand_... Likewise the depth of Jiaozhou bay is 10 to 15m. The channel is 45m deep between Calais and Dover (the shortest and shallowest crossing). Moreover the strait of Dover (or Pas de Calais in french) is the busiest shipping lane in the world http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/22/article-2636152-1E1A483000000578-594_964x516.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/22/article-2636152-1E...

dasmoth 9y ago

I’m a little surprised that a road link didn’t get at least slightly more serious consideration when the existing tunnel was planned. Certainly, in light of recent politics, I can’t help thinking that a road link would make “middle England” feel connected to Europe in a way no amount of rail traffic can.

rwmj 9y ago
Plans for a long bridge were considered, eg: https://youtu.be/r_HN26VVXAk?t=9m15s https://youtu.be/r_HN26VVXAk?t=9m15s I also remember at the time a (pretty crazy) plan for a partial road bridge going out for a few miles from each side that then turned into a tunnel by way of a long corkscrew-style descent under the sea. I can't imagine that would have been practical ... Edit: Wikipedia has the details. Apparently the bridge plan was called "Eurobridge", and I wasn't imagining the bridge/tunnel hybrid either, it was called "Euroroute". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel#Initiation_of_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel#Initiation_of_p... Edit #2: Euroroute video: https://amisduvieuxcalais.com/index.php/calais-video/calais-en-video https://amisduvieuxcalais.com/index.php/calais-video/calais-...
- schoen 9y ago
  Apparently the combination of bridge and tunnel to cross a body of water has been used quite successfully in several places: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge%E2%80%93tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge%E2%80%93tunnel I don't know if it would have been helpful in this case, though.
maxerickson 9y ago
Sitting on a rail car sounds a lot more pleasant than driving through a tunnel for 30-60 minutes. Do you think there is enough demand to justify a road link in addition to the vehicle transport trains?
- dazc 9y ago
  There is certainly demand for more freight capacity; the ferries seem to be the biggest problem with regular delays. When these delays occur it's not unusual for the serving motorway to double as make-shift lorry park. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Stack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Stack For regular passenger cars, I'm not so sure as it's mostly holiday traffic. Most people travelling for business would use the Eurostar (a regular passenger express) and I don't see much complaints about the capacity of this?

dazc 9y ago

'Building a huge concrete structure in the middle of the world’s busiest shipping lane might come with some challenges.' https://twitter.com/ukshipping/status/954132391127339008 https://twitter.com/ukshipping/status/954132391127339008 I'm not against major infrastructure projects but there must be 100 more suitable ideas for improving links within the UK, never mind Europe.

swimfar 9y ago
There are tall bridges designed to allow large ships to pass underneath. I'm not sure how that affects the cost, though. There's one in Saint-Nazaire, France (which has a large ship building industry) which crosses the Loire river. It looks pretty cool. https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A1jl:Pont-Mindin.jpg https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A1jl:Pont-Mindin.jpg
- scrumbledober 9y ago
  you don't need the entire bridge to be tall either, the San Mateo Bridge is eight and a half miles long and only raises up high enough for ships to pass for a short portion on the western side where I believe the water is deepest.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
    > the San Mateo Bridge is eight and a half miles long and only raises up high enough for ships to pass for a short portion > (the channel is) the world’s busiest shipping lane > the biggest ships on the ocean. Spot the problem with the "short portion" idea.

hinkley 9y ago

Johnson has previously promoted the idea of another Channel Tunnel but is now said to think a bridge could also be possible, telling aides that such feats of engineering have been achieved in Japan. The 20 mile bridge he seems to be alluding to is in China, ladies and gentlemen. The longest bridge in Japan is 2.4 miles long. (That Japanese bridge has the longest suspension span, but I don’t see how he would call that solved)

ysr23 9y ago

<sighs> the man practically defined the 'dead cat strategy': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_cat_strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_cat_strategy thats all this is, thats all he ever does.

amriksohata 9y ago

Im not a Boris fan but this was one of the options proposed when the channel tunnel was built, so I don't know why people think it's absurd