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Mike Moritz slams politically correct tech culture, praises Chinese work ethic

77 points by Element_ 9y ago

firasd 9y ago
I've seen a lot of anger about his comments on Twitter, but for me this just boils down to a structural issue: for him, a company is an item in a financial portfolio. For an employee, a job at a company means years of their life. Their incentives are not aligned (unless the worker is voluntarily putting in continuous 12-hr days for adequate compensation.)
thebiglebrewski 9y ago
"Stealing vacation days"
islanderfun 9y ago
I agree some parts of our society have basically forbidden any kind of discussion. That is in need of real change. Respectable and honest discussions between adults should be allowed. Sucks that conference speakers are being "checked" for political affiliations. Why not let the topic stand on its own? But of course, everyone is free to not listen to people that don't support them in some way. It's a delicate line. > "grumbling about the need for a space for musical jam sessions." What? I have to believe that isn't common and it's being used as a "see how lazy/unprofessional/undedicated _everyone_ in SV is"
- deleted 9y ago
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- newman8r 9y ago
  Conference speakers being checked for political affiliation is crazy but not surprising - are there specific examples of this? On sites like reddit you often see reasonable arguments shot down based on the author's political leanings gleaned from their comment history. The chilling effect is made clear when you see people having to preface their commentary with "I hate x, but... {insert argument here}"
  - liberte82 9y ago
    "You post on 'X' sub. That says all I need to know about you."
    - newman8r 9y ago
      It's a vicious cycle where opposing sides become more polarized with every interaction. For some, the only way out is apathy.
      - java_script 9y ago
        I think it's more that pre-reddit/twitter/facebook we all had separate online forums, chat rooms, etc and now it's all centralized to the same few sites. For example before reddit we didn't have popular fascist subforums hosted on the same site as a liberal politics subforum, where people could cross-post and PM between them.
        liberte82 9y ago
        This is a good point. I used to frequent DemocraticUnderground back in the 2004 days during the Kerry campaign. It was as bad an echo chamber as anything we see today. The alternative site was FreeRepublic (or 'freepers', as we called them). However, the fact that you didn't have to go to that site or see those people's opinions if you didn't want to, made a big difference to how vitriolic the whole thing felt.
mindcrime 9y ago
"Engineers have slightly different habits: they will appear about 10am and leave at midnight." I actually agree with Moritz on some points, but this... all I can say is, from an employee perspective, this only makes sense IF you're going to get rich as a result. And the average startup employee does not get enough equity to get rich even in the event of a successful exit, so there's no reason to do this kind of stuff. Well, OK, maybe if you just plain enjoy coding (or whatever) to the point that you want to work 12-14 hours days. But I suspect that's a very small number of people. Seriously though, unless you're being paid MEGA-BUCKS or have MASSIVE equity there is just no reason to work yourself to death.
- sjg007 9y ago
  I think if you have traction then you could justify this but you could also not justify it either. Same without having traction. IMO I think he's wrong here. Pretty sure there is academic research backing that up.
- charlesdm 9y ago
  Working more is almost never the solution. If you have to work from 8am until 10pm, you're just doing something wrong. Does he himself work from 8am until 10pm?
  - onion2k 9y ago
    I often work from 8am until 10am.
  - maze-le 9y ago
    I assume you mean 10pm? In my experience, after ~6 or 7h coding, my focus starts to move elsewhere, I make more errors and start reacting more irritaded than usual.
    - charlesdm 9y ago
      Sorry, typo. Yes, 10pm of course I share pretty much the same experience. Five to six hours of coding is a good day in terms of work for me.
mikeash 9y ago
So basically, to us American techies, shut up and start working 100 hour weeks? What a delightful fellow. I wonder if he’s going to lead by example, or if he thinks 14-hour days are only for underlings.
- islanderfun 9y ago
  Most will stick to their 4 hour work week and go back to golfing.
- strebler 9y ago
  Exactly, do it or else he's going to take his ball and go home (or take his fund's money and go to China) But don't tell him what happens if he ever tries to take his money OUT of China, we can let that be a "fun" learning experience for him.
  - untererdisch 9y ago
    You might be making the wrong assumption about why Mike is saying what he's saying. Sequoia has been investing in China for almost 13 years, with 8 funds and $2.5B USD and $4B RMB raised, and excellent returns. I don't think that Mike is trying to dupe anyone in Silicon Valley into working harder for his benefit. He's already quite fine financially and his investment bets are hedged. The ball, so to speak, is already moving to another court. That plus 13 years worth of concrete experience watching Silicon Valley and Chinese entrepreneurs and startups evolving simultaneously might be informing some of what he's saying. Ascribe sinister motives and ignore what he's saying if you like. But if you do, you better think again about who's being naive.
  - justaman 9y ago
    Doing business in China is basically giving them your IP for free. China is due for a rude awakening from the west.
projectileboy 9y ago
Investor prefers environment where employees are even more willingly exploited than in SV. Well, of course he does.
dkhenry 9y ago
I don't know if the headline is specifically that California and Silicon Valley is a worse climate then China, but this has been known for anyone outside the valley for a long time. The business climate in flyover country is worlds better. The only real problem is that its hard to get enough talent to really put your money to work, which is the same problem you will have anywhere outside the major tech hubs.
- pavlov 9y ago
  What do you mean by "business climate" here? I would assume that finding and retaining employees is a core component of any business, and if that's not happening, then the climate isn't all that good.
- jdblair 9y ago
  Can you be specific about what you mean about the business climate being better? Is it taxation? The cost of land and workers? It seems that if talent is unavailable that is not just "the only problem" but an actual blocker.
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IanDrake 9y ago
Chinese culture is pretty different from ours (from what I read). I’m not sure one can pin longer work hours on work ethic alone. As I understand it, China has a gender imbalance and there are not enough women. Men therefore must be successful to find a wife. This could help explain some of the difference in work ethic, as one of the primary human motivations is to reproduce.
- eddieplan9 9y ago
  This is the most ridiculous explanation I have read about why Chinese work hard. It’s extremely simple: everybody wants to be successful, and right now because of many reasons, Chinese think they can be successful by working hard. This is the Chinese equivalent of American dream, that one can pursue happiness by working hard.
rayiner 9y ago
Complaining about Silicon Valley political correctness while extolling the virtues of China is at best tone deaf. It’s pretty much impossible for anyone who has any experience with Asia to deny that racism is just more socially acceptable over there than in the US. And things like homosexuality are suppressed. For example, China recently banned depictions of homosexuality on TV. So of course it’s easier to say certain things over there than it is over here. That’s the difference between a society where tensions are high because we’re actively trying to work through the challenges faced by our minority groups, and one where there are no tensions because the concerns of minority groups are completely suppressed. It’s also myopic to mistake forced social harmony for principled open mindedness. My extended family is from a South Asian country, and let’s face it—people say things that could, among Americans, get them in trouble. That’s not out of open mindedness. Try bringing up a cousin possibly being gay and see how open minded everyone is.
- mindcrime 9y ago
  That’s the difference between a society where tensions are high because we’re actively trying to work through the challenges faced by our minority groups, and one where there are no tensions because the concerns of minority groups are completely suppressed. Very well put!
  - scarmig 9y ago
    "We who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive." -MLK
    - liberte82 9y ago
      In America, there is a lot of tension near the surface. It might seem like that means we have deep, deep problems. But sometimes when an issue is closer to the surface, that can mean it can no longer be ignored and is closer to needing resolution.
      - 9y ago
s3nnyy 9y ago
> "Now, it looks like even Silicon Valley's biggest boosters — venture capitalists — are losing patience." When I lost patience, I just wrote about it to get it out of my system. I disagree with all the rules/stuff you can't do according to code of conducts we have at workplaces or conferences, but the reactions were neutral/it was not really received at all -- here is my text: "Why anti-harassment policies fail. Grok Trump’s tweets to learn how to fix them" https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/anti-harassment-rules-dont-work-grok-trump-s-tweets-to-learn-how-to-fix-them-209871212afe https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/anti-harassment-rules-dont-...
jjuel 9y ago
There is a reason why buildings in China have nets to prevent suicide and Japan has a work to death problem. Working that much is not good or healthy.
- tpkj 9y ago
  > Working that much is not good or healthy. Nor is it good for employee retention, but apparently there is no concern for employee retention. https://twitter.com/patio11/status/954282877717422080 https://twitter.com/patio11/status/954282877717422080 https://twitter.com/TProphet/status/954090579897466880 https://twitter.com/TProphet/status/954090579897466880
- liberte82 9y ago
  Probably not, but us westerners are going to be forced to compete with them sooner or later.
  - jjuel 9y ago
    Is there proof that working 14 hours 6 or 7 days a week is truly more productive than working 8 hours 5 days a week? Theoretically it should be, but I am just curious if there is any science on it.
    - liberte82 9y ago
      Even if it's not, we'll need to compete against the perception that the Chinese are harder working than us.
tpkj 9y ago
More in depth article (well, at least compared to the CNBC piece) here on Financial Times, authored by the SV investor. The comments section has some good feedback as well. https://www.ft.com/content/42daca9e-facc-11e7-9bfc-052cbba03425 https://www.ft.com/content/42daca9e-facc-11e7-9bfc-052cbba03... I get some of the investor's complaints about pc culture, and at the same time I wonder if this guy considers the ideal corporation one where an "employee" literally "works" 24/7, never leaves his/her desk for anything thanks to IV tubes for food, digestion, and medications to keep oneself constantly awake; and the bio-energy of the employee is harvested to supply energy for the office building. Quite the recipe for individual and societal flourishing...
neuro_imager 9y ago
Multi-billionaire with wealth accumulated from institutional gambling and rent seeking feels that wage-slaves complain about "inequality" to much and should instead behave like people in countries with no human rights. Sounds legit.
IkmoIkmo 9y ago
What does having discussions about ethics, morality or equality have to do with working 14 hour, six day workweeks (84h)? Look, there's genuinely important discussions to be had right now. If he wants his son to grow up addicted to a social network he interfaces with through a screen, or his daughter to be subjected to casual sexism, because it'd hurt some engineers' feelings to be confronted with that toxic reality, then cry me a river. I for one am glad to see someone making a stand, some of the discourse we see now is meaningful and I'm happy for it. (far from all of it, don't get me wrong. but a lot of these discussions are way overdue and we shouldn't throw away the baby with the bathwater). That having been said, this article really looks like one of those 'we paraphrased 5 minutes of nuanced commentary into a shitty one-liner'. I'm sure I'll still disagree with his more elaborate views, but I get the feeling there's more to his argument than this article supposes.
- Sangermaine 9y ago
  >What does having discussions about ethics, morality or equality have to do with working 14 hour, six day workweeks (84h)? Because the former is just cover for the latter, which is the real concern. He, like most of his type, wants his underlings to work as much as possible for as little as possible without any complaints. This has become annoyingly hard to enforce in the US, so off to a dictatorship where the drones don't have those options.
alphonsegaston 9y ago
I always suspected that the end goal of the wealthy was to push America into the Authoritarian Capitalist model of China or Russia. I never expected them to be so explicit about it.
vthallam 9y ago
A rich investor is complaining about how people are not working to their death so that his portfolio companies do better and get him more returns? Give me a break. Why do we even have to have a discussion when all he complains about is how they work for 12 hours? They copied every SV company the moment it hit off, no real innovation besides the recent AI advancements. What good would come off by copying that model?
youdontknowtho 9y ago
I love when billionaire's criticize people who work for a living. The unmitigated gaul. It's amazing that someone... So many someone's...can be so blind.
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RyanUnited 9y ago
Haha a bunch of over privileged kids pretending they don't make ungodly amounts of money over the average person in their own wealthy country while complaining about how the weight of the progressive world is on their shoulders as they fight to solve all the modern problems of an advanced society!!! OH GOD! Oh poor me. Fuck them. It's about work. Work bitch and that means shut the fuck up and work. Fuckin SF.
pg_bot 9y ago
As an employee and a founder of a company his viewpoint seems to go against what has made the most effective teams I've worked with. You should focus on outputs not inputs when working. If someone can do the work of someone else with a fraction of the effort that person should be rewarded not punished. I don't know anyone who can work 14 hour days regularly and still be productive. If someone is doing that, it is a red flag for me to know that something is broken or that person is incompetent and needs to be let go.
JustSomeNobody 9y ago
So, he's basically indicating to companies he may potentially invest in that they need to start hiring Chinese to do the actual work because they're cheaper and work longer ours.
cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
I agree with this guy. I know I'll be downvoted to oblivion but gotta say what i gotta say. I'm not saying political correctness is bad, and I don't think this guy is saying that either. He's just stating the facts and I would like to also just state the facts. There are way more conflicts and drama and scandals in America because Americans are much more "woke" than citizens of other parts of the world. Again, this is not a "bad" thing, but if you look at what this is causing, same americans are tearing down successful and ambitious american entrepreneurs who may have achieved something really great. Let me use Uber as an example, since I know you guys will downvote me anyway. The founder of Uber got kicked out and now Uber is struggling. When Uber was struggling to grow in China, Americans were busy criticizing Uber for all kinds of things. This probably didn't help them in any way. You will say companies like Uber and the founder deserves it and unethical companies like Uber should not be left to survive. And I agree with the sentiment that unethical companies are bad, but again, I'm just going to state the facts. If you look at "less woke" developing countries around the world, they don't have this sense of social justice because they don't have the luxury. So they do whatever is possible to increase their GDP. That's why a lot of developing countries are corrupt. But guess what, that's how these countries and companies from these countries grow. Companies like Samsung have always had very tight relationship with their government, and most people--while they never actually witness the corruption--kind of acknowledge that something like that happens behind the scenes. The woke Americans will say that's bad and that shouldn't happen, and samsung should be taken down, etc. But at the end of the day, this is how developing countries actually accumulate their riches and this is how the top performing companies from these countries reach the top and end up growing globally. They will one day become the "woke" ones as much as Americans are, but until then, they will become richer and richer and soon be a threat to the U.S. economy. This has nothing to do with ethics, justice, or whatever. This is just how it has always been, and that's how it will be. If you look at what's happening with China, it really IS taking over the world. A lot of top cryptocurrency projects and companies are from China. Most influential hardware are increasingly coming from China. All this while the ADD silicon valley founders and VCs are pouring money into fad technologies and having a serious identity crisis.
- GVIrish 9y ago
  > If you look at "less woke" developing countries around the world, they don't have this sense of social justice because they don't have the luxury. So they do whatever is possible to increase their GDP. They don't have that sense of social justice for a number of reasons. Having lived in the developing world, one big component is that the legal system is not set up to prevent exploitation of the many by the few who are rich. Corruption and exploitation are entrenched because the culture accepts it and those crushed under it don't feel they have the power to change it. There's more than enough money in many developing nations to significantly raise the standard of living for the average citizen, but those taking the lion's share of the spoils have no interest in changing that system. > That's why a lot of developing countries are corrupt. No, a lot of developing countries are corrupt due to weak rule of law and an entrenched culture of back-scratching. The corruption is not there simply because they are relatively poor countries. So for example, in Latin America, Brazil's GDP is around $1.8 trillion, and Costa Rica is at $57 billion. Yet Costa Rica performs MUCH better on international corruption scale. And there are plenty of examples of that. Look at Russia versus some of it's former satellite states. Corruption is much worse in Russia than it is in Georgia, even though Russia is a much bigger economy. It really is about the strength of institutions and rule of law. Being a developing nation doesn't mean that out-of-control graft is inevitable.
whataretensors 9y ago
So engineers should work an additional 60 hours a week each while rich VCs get to systematically steal the future with their accredited investor scam. Sounds reasonable.
laurentoget 9y ago
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/jack-ma/articleshow/59538570.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/jack-... It is interesting to contrast this investor's cliches about working 12 or 14 hours day as a key to success and Chinese work ethic with what an actual Chinese business leader as to say on that topic: “My grandfather worked for 16 hours a day. He thought he was very busy. We work eight hours a day for five days a week and we think we are very busy. But in the next 30 years, people will work only for four hours a day and four days a week”
sremani 9y ago
>> "in many respects, doing business in China is easier than doing business in California." There are merits to this discussion and of course, all the comments I have seen including the top one, either simply suggest or put some words in his mouth! The Virtue Signaling on HN is nauseating! Listen to the man, he has better worldly experience than most of us (me, for sure) and read the nuance too (instead of playing the snarky critic).
- sidlls 9y ago
  I've lived and worked in a half dozen countries. The guy is just stating that he wants thoughtless drones to work as much as he demands for as little as he can pay them, and also not care about anything other than work. He's using slightly different words. There's nothing about his "worldly experience" that makes his statements unique or insightful.
laurentoget 9y ago
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-01/11/content_27919058.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-01/11/content_279... meanwhile in the official chinese media, we get a pretty different picture. I wonder what the chinese communist party thinks of westerners assuming their people are willing to work like slaves.
raverbashing 9y ago
I just love the "bet on the mouse that spins the wheel faster" mentality (and this is regardless of culture or nationality) betting on those who are sitting on their chairs longer is just "traditional" corporate shortsightedness
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wavefunction 9y ago
The troubling part for me is: "Top managers show up for work at about 8am and frequently don't leave until 10pm. Most of them will do this six days a week — and there are plenty of examples of people who do this for seven. Engineers have slightly different habits: they will appear about 10am and leave at midnight." This dude wants his fellow Americans to work at least 84 hours a week, if not a "modest 7 day work week" of almost 100 hours. Life is too precious for that sort of nonsense and I can only hope that this fellow and those like him lose their power and capability to influence society.
kyledrake 9y ago
When you're more productive, you become more valuable and it requires less of your time to do something. This is pretty basic economics here. If Mike wants to fund a Mythical Man Month play against efficient workers, I wish him the best of luck. I don't think it will work but I'm interested in the results.
calimac 9y ago
Two things: The hypocrisy of Silicon Valley backwards upside down flavor of politically correct practice is at best illogical and at worst Orwellianly feudal. Silicon Valley has been consumed by beta cucks. The few alphas are in the closet as if they were living as a queer in the 1970’s. In reality China has been taking the best of the Silicon Valley and whooping them with their Confusious flavor of capitalism. Update: China of 2008-2015 is gone for now. There is a developing communist nationalism that is squeezing the freedom China enjoyed for the last 15 years. The son of Mao’s top general has his boot on china’s Neck and we will see if he can help Or hinder China in his reign. China over the last decade is what the Silicon Valley was before chucked liberal lgbqtxyzabc laraza politicians and mentally ill liberals drank to coolaide in the 2000’s. The population demographics of California has completely changed in the last 7 years. Now, without massive federal subsidies through tax payer credit, California looks like it’s sinking under the weight of it’s own beuracracy and social safety net.
dhoulb 9y ago
I’ve definitely noticed tech, especially tech press, getting much more political and negative in the last few years. I don’t really know if it’s the WHOLE of tech (or just how it’s reported), but it definitely feels like a downer right now. As a tech liberal dreamer, it’s totally getting to me. I want to read about interesting new solutions to problems, but at the moment it seems mostly like negative press about Uber. Obviously it’s responsible to call it when conpanies do bad things, but is tech really unethical on the scale of pharma or agrobusiness or fast food? Doesn’t seem so. ( I get that they’re tech press so they’ll only report on tech, but context would be nice). Feels like the optimism is gone?
fulafel 9y ago
Which side is unhinged? I think the Moritz side.
RickJWagner 9y ago
Too much prosperity isn't a good thing in the long run. The PC problem is a result of prosperity without corresponding effort. I hope the correction is a kind one.
tanilama 9y ago
Spent too much time on indulging in political correctness in long-term will hurt the productivity of the SV companies. It adds up the cost to operate. This guy is not wrong for a lot of good points.
vijay_nair 9y ago
Meanwhile in Japan: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karōshi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karōshi

77 points by Element_ 9y ago

I've seen a lot of anger about his comments on Twitter, but for me this just boils down to a structural issue: for him, a company is an item in a financial portfolio. For an employee, a job at a company means years of their life. Their incentives are not aligned (unless the worker is voluntarily putting in continuous 12-hr days for adequate compensation.)

thebiglebrewski 9y ago

"Stealing vacation days"

islanderfun 9y ago

I agree some parts of our society have basically forbidden any kind of discussion. That is in need of real change. Respectable and honest discussions between adults should be allowed. Sucks that conference speakers are being "checked" for political affiliations. Why not let the topic stand on its own? But of course, everyone is free to not listen to people that don't support them in some way. It's a delicate line. > "grumbling about the need for a space for musical jam sessions." What? I have to believe that isn't common and it's being used as a "see how lazy/unprofessional/undedicated _everyone_ in SV is"

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newman8r 9y ago
Conference speakers being checked for political affiliation is crazy but not surprising - are there specific examples of this? On sites like reddit you often see reasonable arguments shot down based on the author's political leanings gleaned from their comment history. The chilling effect is made clear when you see people having to preface their commentary with "I hate x, but... {insert argument here}"
- liberte82 9y ago
  "You post on 'X' sub. That says all I need to know about you."
  - newman8r 9y ago
    It's a vicious cycle where opposing sides become more polarized with every interaction. For some, the only way out is apathy.
    - java_script 9y ago
      I think it's more that pre-reddit/twitter/facebook we all had separate online forums, chat rooms, etc and now it's all centralized to the same few sites. For example before reddit we didn't have popular fascist subforums hosted on the same site as a liberal politics subforum, where people could cross-post and PM between them.
      - liberte82 9y ago
        This is a good point. I used to frequent DemocraticUnderground back in the 2004 days during the Kerry campaign. It was as bad an echo chamber as anything we see today. The alternative site was FreeRepublic (or 'freepers', as we called them). However, the fact that you didn't have to go to that site or see those people's opinions if you didn't want to, made a big difference to how vitriolic the whole thing felt.

mindcrime 9y ago

"Engineers have slightly different habits: they will appear about 10am and leave at midnight." I actually agree with Moritz on some points, but this... all I can say is, from an employee perspective, this only makes sense IF you're going to get rich as a result. And the average startup employee does not get enough equity to get rich even in the event of a successful exit, so there's no reason to do this kind of stuff. Well, OK, maybe if you just plain enjoy coding (or whatever) to the point that you want to work 12-14 hours days. But I suspect that's a very small number of people. Seriously though, unless you're being paid MEGA-BUCKS or have MASSIVE equity there is just no reason to work yourself to death.

sjg007 9y ago
I think if you have traction then you could justify this but you could also not justify it either. Same without having traction. IMO I think he's wrong here. Pretty sure there is academic research backing that up.
charlesdm 9y ago
Working more is almost never the solution. If you have to work from 8am until 10pm, you're just doing something wrong. Does he himself work from 8am until 10pm?
- onion2k 9y ago
  I often work from 8am until 10am.
- maze-le 9y ago
  I assume you mean 10pm? In my experience, after ~6 or 7h coding, my focus starts to move elsewhere, I make more errors and start reacting more irritaded than usual.
  - charlesdm 9y ago
    Sorry, typo. Yes, 10pm of course I share pretty much the same experience. Five to six hours of coding is a good day in terms of work for me.

mikeash 9y ago

So basically, to us American techies, shut up and start working 100 hour weeks? What a delightful fellow. I wonder if he’s going to lead by example, or if he thinks 14-hour days are only for underlings.

islanderfun 9y ago
Most will stick to their 4 hour work week and go back to golfing.
strebler 9y ago
Exactly, do it or else he's going to take his ball and go home (or take his fund's money and go to China) But don't tell him what happens if he ever tries to take his money OUT of China, we can let that be a "fun" learning experience for him.
- untererdisch 9y ago
  You might be making the wrong assumption about why Mike is saying what he's saying. Sequoia has been investing in China for almost 13 years, with 8 funds and $2.5B USD and $4B RMB raised, and excellent returns. I don't think that Mike is trying to dupe anyone in Silicon Valley into working harder for his benefit. He's already quite fine financially and his investment bets are hedged. The ball, so to speak, is already moving to another court. That plus 13 years worth of concrete experience watching Silicon Valley and Chinese entrepreneurs and startups evolving simultaneously might be informing some of what he's saying. Ascribe sinister motives and ignore what he's saying if you like. But if you do, you better think again about who's being naive.
- justaman 9y ago
  Doing business in China is basically giving them your IP for free. China is due for a rude awakening from the west.

projectileboy 9y ago

Investor prefers environment where employees are even more willingly exploited than in SV. Well, of course he does.

dkhenry 9y ago

I don't know if the headline is specifically that California and Silicon Valley is a worse climate then China, but this has been known for anyone outside the valley for a long time. The business climate in flyover country is worlds better. The only real problem is that its hard to get enough talent to really put your money to work, which is the same problem you will have anywhere outside the major tech hubs.

pavlov 9y ago
What do you mean by "business climate" here? I would assume that finding and retaining employees is a core component of any business, and if that's not happening, then the climate isn't all that good.
jdblair 9y ago
Can you be specific about what you mean about the business climate being better? Is it taxation? The cost of land and workers? It seems that if talent is unavailable that is not just "the only problem" but an actual blocker.

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IanDrake 9y ago

Chinese culture is pretty different from ours (from what I read). I’m not sure one can pin longer work hours on work ethic alone. As I understand it, China has a gender imbalance and there are not enough women. Men therefore must be successful to find a wife. This could help explain some of the difference in work ethic, as one of the primary human motivations is to reproduce.

eddieplan9 9y ago
This is the most ridiculous explanation I have read about why Chinese work hard. It’s extremely simple: everybody wants to be successful, and right now because of many reasons, Chinese think they can be successful by working hard. This is the Chinese equivalent of American dream, that one can pursue happiness by working hard.

rayiner 9y ago

Complaining about Silicon Valley political correctness while extolling the virtues of China is at best tone deaf. It’s pretty much impossible for anyone who has any experience with Asia to deny that racism is just more socially acceptable over there than in the US. And things like homosexuality are suppressed. For example, China recently banned depictions of homosexuality on TV. So of course it’s easier to say certain things over there than it is over here. That’s the difference between a society where tensions are high because we’re actively trying to work through the challenges faced by our minority groups, and one where there are no tensions because the concerns of minority groups are completely suppressed. It’s also myopic to mistake forced social harmony for principled open mindedness. My extended family is from a South Asian country, and let’s face it—people say things that could, among Americans, get them in trouble. That’s not out of open mindedness. Try bringing up a cousin possibly being gay and see how open minded everyone is.

mindcrime 9y ago
That’s the difference between a society where tensions are high because we’re actively trying to work through the challenges faced by our minority groups, and one where there are no tensions because the concerns of minority groups are completely suppressed. Very well put!
- scarmig 9y ago
  "We who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive." -MLK
  - liberte82 9y ago
    In America, there is a lot of tension near the surface. It might seem like that means we have deep, deep problems. But sometimes when an issue is closer to the surface, that can mean it can no longer be ignored and is closer to needing resolution.
    - 9y ago

s3nnyy 9y ago

> "Now, it looks like even Silicon Valley's biggest boosters — venture capitalists — are losing patience." When I lost patience, I just wrote about it to get it out of my system. I disagree with all the rules/stuff you can't do according to code of conducts we have at workplaces or conferences, but the reactions were neutral/it was not really received at all -- here is my text: "Why anti-harassment policies fail. Grok Trump’s tweets to learn how to fix them" https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/anti-harassment-rules-dont-work-grok-trump-s-tweets-to-learn-how-to-fix-them-209871212afe https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/anti-harassment-rules-dont-...

jjuel 9y ago

There is a reason why buildings in China have nets to prevent suicide and Japan has a work to death problem. Working that much is not good or healthy.

tpkj 9y ago
> Working that much is not good or healthy. Nor is it good for employee retention, but apparently there is no concern for employee retention. https://twitter.com/patio11/status/954282877717422080 https://twitter.com/patio11/status/954282877717422080 https://twitter.com/TProphet/status/954090579897466880 https://twitter.com/TProphet/status/954090579897466880
liberte82 9y ago
Probably not, but us westerners are going to be forced to compete with them sooner or later.
- jjuel 9y ago
  Is there proof that working 14 hours 6 or 7 days a week is truly more productive than working 8 hours 5 days a week? Theoretically it should be, but I am just curious if there is any science on it.
  - liberte82 9y ago
    Even if it's not, we'll need to compete against the perception that the Chinese are harder working than us.

tpkj 9y ago

More in depth article (well, at least compared to the CNBC piece) here on Financial Times, authored by the SV investor. The comments section has some good feedback as well. https://www.ft.com/content/42daca9e-facc-11e7-9bfc-052cbba03425 https://www.ft.com/content/42daca9e-facc-11e7-9bfc-052cbba03... I get some of the investor's complaints about pc culture, and at the same time I wonder if this guy considers the ideal corporation one where an "employee" literally "works" 24/7, never leaves his/her desk for anything thanks to IV tubes for food, digestion, and medications to keep oneself constantly awake; and the bio-energy of the employee is harvested to supply energy for the office building. Quite the recipe for individual and societal flourishing...

neuro_imager 9y ago

Multi-billionaire with wealth accumulated from institutional gambling and rent seeking feels that wage-slaves complain about "inequality" to much and should instead behave like people in countries with no human rights. Sounds legit.

IkmoIkmo 9y ago

What does having discussions about ethics, morality or equality have to do with working 14 hour, six day workweeks (84h)? Look, there's genuinely important discussions to be had right now. If he wants his son to grow up addicted to a social network he interfaces with through a screen, or his daughter to be subjected to casual sexism, because it'd hurt some engineers' feelings to be confronted with that toxic reality, then cry me a river. I for one am glad to see someone making a stand, some of the discourse we see now is meaningful and I'm happy for it. (far from all of it, don't get me wrong. but a lot of these discussions are way overdue and we shouldn't throw away the baby with the bathwater). That having been said, this article really looks like one of those 'we paraphrased 5 minutes of nuanced commentary into a shitty one-liner'. I'm sure I'll still disagree with his more elaborate views, but I get the feeling there's more to his argument than this article supposes.

Sangermaine 9y ago
>What does having discussions about ethics, morality or equality have to do with working 14 hour, six day workweeks (84h)? Because the former is just cover for the latter, which is the real concern. He, like most of his type, wants his underlings to work as much as possible for as little as possible without any complaints. This has become annoyingly hard to enforce in the US, so off to a dictatorship where the drones don't have those options.

alphonsegaston 9y ago

I always suspected that the end goal of the wealthy was to push America into the Authoritarian Capitalist model of China or Russia. I never expected them to be so explicit about it.

vthallam 9y ago

A rich investor is complaining about how people are not working to their death so that his portfolio companies do better and get him more returns? Give me a break. Why do we even have to have a discussion when all he complains about is how they work for 12 hours? They copied every SV company the moment it hit off, no real innovation besides the recent AI advancements. What good would come off by copying that model?

youdontknowtho 9y ago

I love when billionaire's criticize people who work for a living. The unmitigated gaul. It's amazing that someone... So many someone's...can be so blind.

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RyanUnited 9y ago

Haha a bunch of over privileged kids pretending they don't make ungodly amounts of money over the average person in their own wealthy country while complaining about how the weight of the progressive world is on their shoulders as they fight to solve all the modern problems of an advanced society!!! OH GOD! Oh poor me. Fuck them. It's about work. Work bitch and that means shut the fuck up and work. Fuckin SF.

pg_bot 9y ago

As an employee and a founder of a company his viewpoint seems to go against what has made the most effective teams I've worked with. You should focus on outputs not inputs when working. If someone can do the work of someone else with a fraction of the effort that person should be rewarded not punished. I don't know anyone who can work 14 hour days regularly and still be productive. If someone is doing that, it is a red flag for me to know that something is broken or that person is incompetent and needs to be let go.

JustSomeNobody 9y ago

So, he's basically indicating to companies he may potentially invest in that they need to start hiring Chinese to do the actual work because they're cheaper and work longer ours.

cocktailpeanuts 9y ago

I agree with this guy. I know I'll be downvoted to oblivion but gotta say what i gotta say. I'm not saying political correctness is bad, and I don't think this guy is saying that either. He's just stating the facts and I would like to also just state the facts. There are way more conflicts and drama and scandals in America because Americans are much more "woke" than citizens of other parts of the world. Again, this is not a "bad" thing, but if you look at what this is causing, same americans are tearing down successful and ambitious american entrepreneurs who may have achieved something really great. Let me use Uber as an example, since I know you guys will downvote me anyway. The founder of Uber got kicked out and now Uber is struggling. When Uber was struggling to grow in China, Americans were busy criticizing Uber for all kinds of things. This probably didn't help them in any way. You will say companies like Uber and the founder deserves it and unethical companies like Uber should not be left to survive. And I agree with the sentiment that unethical companies are bad, but again, I'm just going to state the facts. If you look at "less woke" developing countries around the world, they don't have this sense of social justice because they don't have the luxury. So they do whatever is possible to increase their GDP. That's why a lot of developing countries are corrupt. But guess what, that's how these countries and companies from these countries grow. Companies like Samsung have always had very tight relationship with their government, and most people--while they never actually witness the corruption--kind of acknowledge that something like that happens behind the scenes. The woke Americans will say that's bad and that shouldn't happen, and samsung should be taken down, etc. But at the end of the day, this is how developing countries actually accumulate their riches and this is how the top performing companies from these countries reach the top and end up growing globally. They will one day become the "woke" ones as much as Americans are, but until then, they will become richer and richer and soon be a threat to the U.S. economy. This has nothing to do with ethics, justice, or whatever. This is just how it has always been, and that's how it will be. If you look at what's happening with China, it really IS taking over the world. A lot of top cryptocurrency projects and companies are from China. Most influential hardware are increasingly coming from China. All this while the ADD silicon valley founders and VCs are pouring money into fad technologies and having a serious identity crisis.

GVIrish 9y ago
> If you look at "less woke" developing countries around the world, they don't have this sense of social justice because they don't have the luxury. So they do whatever is possible to increase their GDP. They don't have that sense of social justice for a number of reasons. Having lived in the developing world, one big component is that the legal system is not set up to prevent exploitation of the many by the few who are rich. Corruption and exploitation are entrenched because the culture accepts it and those crushed under it don't feel they have the power to change it. There's more than enough money in many developing nations to significantly raise the standard of living for the average citizen, but those taking the lion's share of the spoils have no interest in changing that system. > That's why a lot of developing countries are corrupt. No, a lot of developing countries are corrupt due to weak rule of law and an entrenched culture of back-scratching. The corruption is not there simply because they are relatively poor countries. So for example, in Latin America, Brazil's GDP is around $1.8 trillion, and Costa Rica is at $57 billion. Yet Costa Rica performs MUCH better on international corruption scale. And there are plenty of examples of that. Look at Russia versus some of it's former satellite states. Corruption is much worse in Russia than it is in Georgia, even though Russia is a much bigger economy. It really is about the strength of institutions and rule of law. Being a developing nation doesn't mean that out-of-control graft is inevitable.

whataretensors 9y ago

So engineers should work an additional 60 hours a week each while rich VCs get to systematically steal the future with their accredited investor scam. Sounds reasonable.

laurentoget 9y ago

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/jack-ma/articleshow/59538570.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/jack-... It is interesting to contrast this investor's cliches about working 12 or 14 hours day as a key to success and Chinese work ethic with what an actual Chinese business leader as to say on that topic: “My grandfather worked for 16 hours a day. He thought he was very busy. We work eight hours a day for five days a week and we think we are very busy. But in the next 30 years, people will work only for four hours a day and four days a week”

sremani 9y ago

>> "in many respects, doing business in China is easier than doing business in California." There are merits to this discussion and of course, all the comments I have seen including the top one, either simply suggest or put some words in his mouth! The Virtue Signaling on HN is nauseating! Listen to the man, he has better worldly experience than most of us (me, for sure) and read the nuance too (instead of playing the snarky critic).

sidlls 9y ago
I've lived and worked in a half dozen countries. The guy is just stating that he wants thoughtless drones to work as much as he demands for as little as he can pay them, and also not care about anything other than work. He's using slightly different words. There's nothing about his "worldly experience" that makes his statements unique or insightful.

laurentoget 9y ago

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-01/11/content_27919058.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-01/11/content_279... meanwhile in the official chinese media, we get a pretty different picture. I wonder what the chinese communist party thinks of westerners assuming their people are willing to work like slaves.

raverbashing 9y ago

I just love the "bet on the mouse that spins the wheel faster" mentality (and this is regardless of culture or nationality) betting on those who are sitting on their chairs longer is just "traditional" corporate shortsightedness

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wavefunction 9y ago

The troubling part for me is: "Top managers show up for work at about 8am and frequently don't leave until 10pm. Most of them will do this six days a week — and there are plenty of examples of people who do this for seven. Engineers have slightly different habits: they will appear about 10am and leave at midnight." This dude wants his fellow Americans to work at least 84 hours a week, if not a "modest 7 day work week" of almost 100 hours. Life is too precious for that sort of nonsense and I can only hope that this fellow and those like him lose their power and capability to influence society.

kyledrake 9y ago

When you're more productive, you become more valuable and it requires less of your time to do something. This is pretty basic economics here. If Mike wants to fund a Mythical Man Month play against efficient workers, I wish him the best of luck. I don't think it will work but I'm interested in the results.

calimac 9y ago

Two things: The hypocrisy of Silicon Valley backwards upside down flavor of politically correct practice is at best illogical and at worst Orwellianly feudal. Silicon Valley has been consumed by beta cucks. The few alphas are in the closet as if they were living as a queer in the 1970’s. In reality China has been taking the best of the Silicon Valley and whooping them with their Confusious flavor of capitalism. Update: China of 2008-2015 is gone for now. There is a developing communist nationalism that is squeezing the freedom China enjoyed for the last 15 years. The son of Mao’s top general has his boot on china’s Neck and we will see if he can help Or hinder China in his reign. China over the last decade is what the Silicon Valley was before chucked liberal lgbqtxyzabc laraza politicians and mentally ill liberals drank to coolaide in the 2000’s. The population demographics of California has completely changed in the last 7 years. Now, without massive federal subsidies through tax payer credit, California looks like it’s sinking under the weight of it’s own beuracracy and social safety net.

dhoulb 9y ago

I’ve definitely noticed tech, especially tech press, getting much more political and negative in the last few years. I don’t really know if it’s the WHOLE of tech (or just how it’s reported), but it definitely feels like a downer right now. As a tech liberal dreamer, it’s totally getting to me. I want to read about interesting new solutions to problems, but at the moment it seems mostly like negative press about Uber. Obviously it’s responsible to call it when conpanies do bad things, but is tech really unethical on the scale of pharma or agrobusiness or fast food? Doesn’t seem so. ( I get that they’re tech press so they’ll only report on tech, but context would be nice). Feels like the optimism is gone?

fulafel 9y ago

Which side is unhinged? I think the Moritz side.

RickJWagner 9y ago

Too much prosperity isn't a good thing in the long run. The PC problem is a result of prosperity without corresponding effort. I hope the correction is a kind one.

tanilama 9y ago

Spent too much time on indulging in political correctness in long-term will hurt the productivity of the SV companies. It adds up the cost to operate. This guy is not wrong for a lot of good points.

vijay_nair 9y ago

Meanwhile in Japan: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karōshi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karōshi