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An Amazon Order Might Lock You Out of Trusted Traveler Programs

309 points by vezycash 9y ago

akerro 9y ago
Also, remember to never search for pressure cookers and backpacks led if you want to save yourself some troubles and prevent being listed on the watchlist another time (you're already there, yes you, you Linux user!) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/new-york-police-terrorism-pressure-cooker https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/new-york-polic...
- throwanem 9y ago
  > Suffolk County criminal intelligence detectives received a tip from a Bay Shore-based computer company regarding suspicious computer searches conducted by a recently released employee. So I guess don't do that if you work for someone who's going to send the police to your house over it after they fire you? Not sure there's really a larger point to be made here about watchlists, surveillance, or indeed anything, considering the only element of that story which couldn't happen in 1930 is the part about Google.
- sofaofthedamned 9y ago
  Was 2013 before all Google searches were secure? Unless your workspace is doing MITM they wouldn't see the search now. Though, obviously you'd have to trust that Google wouldn't dob you in either.
  - pps43 9y ago
    I thought it's standard practice to MITM at the workplace. How else can you flag exfiltration of sensitive information and stop incoming malware? Add a certificate to browsers on employee's computers, encrypt on proxy after inspection.
    - rkeene2 9y ago
      This still breaks TLS, since it will fail with client-supplied certificates and so can't be used if you need to support TLS.
      - jessaustin 9y ago
        Computers owned by the firm have extra CAs installed. All browsers allow admins to add CAs. Unsophisticated users will never know that e.g. BlueCoat shitboxes (and everyone who has pwned those shitboxes) are reading all their TLS traffic.
        rkeene2 9y ago
        But the web servers on the other side of the TLS connection are not managed by those same system administrators and therefore they will not accept certificates provided by such proxies, breaking TLS.
        jessaustin 9y ago
        To the external server, the shitbox is the user. To the user, the shitbox is the external server. Talk to IT/Networking people at any large firm; this is how it has worked for years. Client certs are a different thing entirely, and unrelated to this discussion.
        rkeene2 9y ago
        How are client certificates, a mandatory feature of TLS and specifically what I mentioned, and what you are replying to, unrelated to this discussion ?
        jessaustin 9y ago
        What is this "mandatory feature" stuff? We're talking [0] about employees on websites "protected" by TLS, and expecting privacy while doing so. If they order hemorrhoid cream on Amazon, their browser talks to the shitbox, the shitbox talks to Amazon, and client certs have nothing to do with that. The browser verifies that it trusts the shitbox, and nobody else verifies anything. One supposes there might be some banks or B2B sites that might use client certs, but they're such a minority that no one ever heard of them. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16186735 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16186735
- lg 9y ago
  that watch list must've gotten really long thanks to the instant pot craze...
  - jonknee 9y ago
    Now someone just needs to make a backpack designed to carry the Instant Pot.
kstenerud 9y ago
Amazon has become an extremely unpleasant place to shop in the past two years. The proliferation of garbage sellers makes it hard to find anything. It used to be that you could avoid most of them by just ignoring anything with less than 10 reviews, but with Amazon's latest change to factor in number of reviews for their "sort by average review" list has let the genie out of the bottle. Now you'll see literally THOUSANDS of 5-star reviews on their garbage, completely drowning out the real stuff :/ It's to the point now where I'll only purchase known brand-name items from the manufacturer, and hope to god it's not a scammer using their name, or some typosquatter, or their supply chain hasn't been polluted by counterfeits. And it's only getting worse. Now I try to buy direct from individual websites like it's 1999.
- te_chris 9y ago
  Agree. I've cancelled prime. I'm lucky to live in London, so local UK retailers are actually pretty good in terms of delivery and click and collect options - I tend to find it easier to buy something online on Argos, then just walk down the road and collect it straight away. I don't really miss prime that much tbh. It certainly is easier sometimes, but the variability of the merch is just not worth it.
  - sofaofthedamned 9y ago
    I don't use Prime and have noticed Amazon keep increasing the time taken for 'free delivery' to a point where i'll just buy it from eBay now, or direct from the retailer.
    - perl4ever 9y ago
      I cancelled my Prime subscription, but the last time I ordered from Amazon, I chose the free option which was estimated to take 5 days, and it got to me overnight, which was nice. My current complaint about Amazon is that when I order a grocery item, it's because I can't find it in a local store and Amazon charges double or triple the normal price. Oddly enough, I ordered something once in bulk for an exorbitant price, and immediately it appeared in my local grocery store for the normal price (50% less). I'm not sure what's going on, but it feels like algorithms run amuck.
chopin 9y ago
I am astonished that the OP comes to his conclusion. Since when is it a good idea to: - skip due process - punish people on unverified accusations
- pjc50 9y ago
  He never says he likes the way the system works, but realistically as an individual you can't change Amazon and you can't change Customs.
  - CPLX 9y ago
    You could change Amazon. It seems to me that this person has an articulable case against Amazon for damages, and filing suit would certainly be a way to get higher level attention. Though if I were him I wouldn't do it either do the hassle.
cm2187 9y ago
Surely this only applies to amazon market place? Any sold or fullfilled by amazon would have already cleared customs by the time your name appear on the package? Not that it protects against being sold counterfeit goods but at least you are not involved on the step where it crosses the border.
virgilp 9y ago
If I understood correctly, this was actually Rimowa who flagged him? Ie not Amazon, not the US customs? Hell if I'd ever purchase anything from them again if I was affected by something like this; the news should really be "Beware when purchasing Rimowa products, you're exposing yourself to unnecessary risk".
- bald 9y ago
  I was also surprised, and then read again more carefully. The article says: "Rimowa likely had an opportunity to take some kind of action [...] they chose the easier target: Reed" which for me sounds like this conclusion is only speculation. I bet it was rather CBP directly who flagged him.
  - Spoom 9y ago
    It was almost certainly CBP who flagged him. They have his address in a database for a trusted traveler program. They were the ones who intercepted the shipment. They checked the destination address on the shipment and cross-referenced it. I'm not sure how Rimowa would be involved, frankly.
    - harper 9y ago
      This is correct and exactly what the CPB officer told me.
    - bonestamp2 9y ago
      Typically, the company will get involved when they know who is importing or exporting the product and they will notify CBP so the shipment can be seized. We don't know if they were involved, but it's possible Rimowa knew who the exporter was (from seeing the fakes online and ordering one themselves) and CBP then seized the package when it was imported. The article says, "Reed never received the suitcase" which indicates that the shipment could have been seized upon entry (because they were tipped off by Rimowa to look for packages from that exporter). Now they knew who the importer was (Reed) and they added his name to a database of illegal importers. Since it was just one suitcase, it probably wasn't worthwhile going after him, but now his name was in the database (likely because they think it will help them catch more illegal imports). The tricky problem arises because there is likely no distinction in the database between one guy who didn't know he was ordering one counterfeit product for himself versus someone who imports container after container of counterfeits for resale. CBP enforces the law by seizing the product and it's up to the company to sue the importer. It's clearly a broken system with nasty ramifications for the people who got scammed.
walterbell 9y ago
Wouldn't this apply to Walmart, eBay or any 3rd-party marketplace?
- minikites 9y ago
  I would think so, but saying "Amazon" will get you way more clicks.
- leereeves 9y ago
  Does Walmart allow 3rd party sellers?
  - walterbell 9y ago
    Yes: http://help.walmart.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/247/~/is-my-item-from-a-marketplace-seller%3F http://help.walmart.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/247/~/is-my-...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - ilamont 9y ago
    Far more difficult to get into. It takes months to review applications, and they reject a lot of them.
    - strictnein 9y ago
      Wish Amazon did this.
kogepathic 9y ago
I'm sorry but this is utter stupidity. Punishing consumers for ordering a product for which the supplier/supply chain sent a counterfeit which was flagged by customs is just dumb. Importing and selling counterfeit products is already illegal. If the person has a 20' shipping container full of counterfeit product, maybe investigate it and level penalties. But to disqualify someone from an entry program because of one counterfeit product, when clearly no one from Amazon, CBP, or the manufacturer put in any effort whatsoever to investigate, is just wrong IMHO. The article states the manufacturer took the lazy route and punished the innocent customer because going after Amazon and someone in China would be more effort/expense. Guilty until proven innocent. Ridiculous.
- paulie_a 9y ago
  What's funny is you can buy embargoed goods on Amazon.
  - carlmr 9y ago
    Now we know where Little Kim orders his oil.
  - rsync 9y ago
    "What's funny is you can buy embargoed goods on Amazon." Can you provide an example or two ?
    - slantyyz 9y ago
      I don't know whether they are embargoed or not, but on Amazon.ca and Amazon.uk it's very easy to find Android Kodi boxes pre-loaded with sketchy apps and Kodi plug-ins that are also fulfilled by Amazon. I'm pretty sure in Canada and the UK, that those products have been heavily targeted by the government for piracy. Several local sellers of those boxes in Canada have been prosecuted/shut down, yet they are still so easily available on Amazon.
- nerdponx 9y ago
  As far as I understand, in the USA it's not actually illegal to buy counterfeit goods, only to sell them.
branchless 9y ago
$700 for a suitcase. Good grief. Surely far more likely to draw the attention of an unscrupulous baggage person.
- teh_klev 9y ago
  If you do a serious amount of travel each year there's no substitute for a good quality piece of luggage. I know this from personal experience from years back where cheap stuff just falls apart.
  - virgilp 9y ago
    You can get a Samsonite piece of luggage for less than half that amount, though. And it's decent quality - definitely not the kind of cheap stuff that falls apart.
    - teh_klev 9y ago
      Sure, but some people are happy to pay extra, maybe it's the brand, or the style, or that one unique feature not available from another less expensive brand. If you're on the move a lot then you and your luggage become engaged in a deeply personal relationship :)
    - goblin89 9y ago
      I have a Delsey suitcase (with Samsonite they’re in similar price range). I was never too careful about handling it, rolled far on various uneven surfaces outdoors, and usually filled it up in excess of 30 kg with books and equipment—it was quite reliable, I’m sure it would’ve served me for years to come. One time at baggage claim it came out without a wheel. I suppose it doesn’t matter how tough your piece of luggage is if your baggage handler happens to be having a bad day. To replace the wheel a Delsey store asked me to give it up for three weeks in Hong Kong, which I couldn’t do. Some pricier brands’s policies promise 1–3 day turnarounds, which makes a difference if you’re moving around frequently.
  - jdietrich 9y ago
    Red Oxx bags are ludicrously over-built and cost under $300. Most leisure travellers would be better off with a cheap, lightweight MLC like the Rick Steves Back Door Bag.
gtirloni 9y ago
> So what happened? It’s impossible to say for sure (CBP doesn’t release specifics) I wonder how they know it was the suitcase that's causing this when... CBP doesn't release specifics.
- ghaff 9y ago
  I re-read the article. It's unclear to me that CBP explicitly told him that he was being denied renewal because he had tried to import a counterfeit good. It may be the case but he doesn't come right out and say "they told me..." As opposed to him just assuming that this must have been the issue.
uptown 9y ago
Not germane to the matter at hand, but an interesting side-note is that Harper Reed was also CTO for Barack Obama's 2012 re-election campaign.
- harper 9y ago
  probably not related. probably. ;)
jsjohnst 9y ago
I’m shocked there’s 59 comments on this and almost nobody is saying the obvious, “what proof of any kind exists that this is the reason he was denied?”. This is pure speculation and I’m predicting it’s totally wrong.
- harper 9y ago
  FWIW the officer told me in the interview.
  - jsjohnst 9y ago
    It must have been a market place order then because otherwise you wouldn’t be listed on the customs form. That changes the story portrayed in the article and should’ve been noted (not your fault there of course unless you didn’t mention it to the person writing it). The article still has a ton of conjecture otherwise (for example, that the baggage company had any involvement in your outcome) that is suspect at best.
thebiglebrewski 9y ago
Wow the government being inefficient and dumb, color me surprised. Sadly this is the world we live in though. I wish we could trust government agencies to be more competent but so far my experience has been really subpar.
dragonwriter 9y ago
Its interesting how most of the commentary here is about Amazon, not about being denied status under a public program for “having a violation of customs laws on your record” when not only were you never convicted or found civilly liable for any such violation, and not only were you never actually even charged with such a violation, but you also never had any notice or knowledge of a customs violation having occurred, and the actual violation was a hostile party attempting to defraud you. Amazon is certainly at fault for the process which enable their platform to be used for fraud, but the core of this story is the government punishing people for offenses they not only didn't commit, but didn't know about and of which they were the intended victim.
- rootusrootus 9y ago
  I agree, this is the impression I had too. Why is this story about Amazon? Far more interesting and ominous is the control our gov't is increasingly exercising over citizens with very little transparency.
  - slowmovintarget 9y ago
    Control? Not having Global Entry doesn't prevent you from traveling anywhere, you just don't get to use the fast lane going through Customs or TSA lines. Global Entry is elective, not a requirement. In other words, you just have normal status. The appeal process should work better in this case than it did.
    - locopati 9y ago
      for now - do you really think they're not going to expand their ability to supposedly 'know when you've been bad or good' to every traveller over time if they're given a chance?
    - rootusrootus 9y ago
      How long does the regular security process have to be before the 'privilege' of the express lane becomes more like the minimum requirement to travel? This is absolutely a form of control.
reacweb 9y ago
IMHO, amazon is guilty. Amazon has imported a counterfeit merchandise without checks on the seller. Putting the blame on the final client is unacceptable. We have a similar issue when banks are stolen and call it identity theft. The bank is guilty of not checking correctly the identity before giving money. The client should never have to endure bad consequences because of bad behavior of Amazon or banks.
- moftz 9y ago
  Amazon didn't handle any of the merchandise. It's Amazon Marketplace so it works like ebay, they just host the listing and process payments while the seller does all the shipment and the buyer is the one actually importing the counterfeit goods (this is what is illegal in the US). I don't think Amazon is the one at fault for the crime necessarily but they should be proactive in taking down counterfeit listings to prevent this. I've bought things on ebay before for what seemed like a fair price and it turned out to be counterfeit. I don't blame ebay for that but I wouldn't be happy if the same post was still up after I reported it for counterfeiting.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > I don't think Amazon is the one at fault for the crime Responsibility for a wrongdoing is not always restricted to one party; in this case there is one party active trying to commit a fraud involving counterfeit goods, and one profiting from a system which is structured so as to enable that fraud and make it difficult for the target to detect or avoid (which may initially have been innocent, but has been maintained that way long after the operator had information on which they reasonably should have known that was a recurring and significant issue.)
    - lsaferite 9y ago
      So you are saying any marketplace (e.g. Ebay) is actually responsible for a merchant using them to facilitate fraud? Why stop there? Let's find the merchant processor complicit and the shipping company and the ISPs. Heck, I'm sure we could extend the net further if we wanted. Point being, unless the marketplace is actively courting merchants they know are perpetuating fraud, then how are they at fault? If they get a report of a seller that is selling counterfeit goods, they take them down. What more do you expect of them?
jaclaz 9y ago
>... making every trip you take during that time a frustrating experience. Well, actually the "normal" experience that everyone but the ones that were granted the "privilege" have. I mean, the decision (provided that the reason is actually the counterfeit suitcase) seems silly, but it is not like they took away his driving license or passport, or however limited his freedom. I have no data, how many people are in the "Global Entry" thing? And how many international travels per year would justify applying (and the background check and the in-person interview)? https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-entry https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-... What is the actual difference in practice? Like half an hour to pass customs on average?
- rsync 9y ago
  "What is the actual difference in practice? Like half an hour to pass customs on average?" It really depends on the airport. As a US citizen returning to SFO I have spent anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours in line. I am considering signing up for Global Entry.
  - jaclaz 9y ago
    >As a US citizen returning to SFO I have spent anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours in line. So, given the procedure (and the non reimboursable fee of US$ 100)and depending how distant you are from an "interview center" (and how long does the interview take): https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-entry/how-apply https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-... I would say that a "make even" point could be around 3-4 international travels planned per year (given that the program needs to be renewed after 5 years).
    - hannibalhorn 9y ago
      Everybody's situation is different, but American Express paid the Global Entry fee for me as part of the annual fee I already pay them. I believe Chase Sapphire does something similar. They actually now do the Global Entry interviews on arrival in the US at select airports, so you can just integrate it into your next international trip. For me ... well, I'm an American but I live in Colombia, which generally meant lots of questions and highly suspicious treatment before I got Global Entry. Now I don't have to say anything more than mornin' when entering the country. Totally worth it to me. :-)
mwexler 9y ago
I love Global Entry, but the mysterious and varied ways you can be denied for the mildest of issues is really frustrating.
1024core 9y ago
> so it’s more important than ever for you to pay close attention to the items you’re buying—especially if they’re being shipped to you from overseas. Watch out for massive discounts, learn how to spot fake reviews, double check who you’re buying from, and don’t hesitate to reach out to Amazon customer service if something seems amiss. So it's my responsibility now to go into the minute details of these things? Why isn't CBP doing its job? Shouldn't they be looking carefully before denying TT status? Shouldn't they be paying attention to what they are doing? I feel like more and more these government agencies just shrug and do the most expedient thing possible, even if it means screwing others over.
Myrmornis 9y ago
> When in doubt, buy luxury and big brand name items directly from their stores and websites. Be scared, and prostitute yourself.
zupa-hu 9y ago
Essentially, this brain-hack is motivating people to prefer buying from original manufacturers and big brands over cheap foreign imports. Whether it's artificially designed or not is a different question.
Paul-ish 9y ago
I wonder if you could order counterfeit goods in someone else's name (eg celebrity or politician) and get them disqualified from the trusted traveler program. It's not hard to get a CC with an arbitrary name.
fastaguy88 9y ago
Alternatives to trusted traveler -- no-longer trusted travelers (no Global Entry) can now use Automated Passport Control, an App for your smart phone, which at Dulles last week, was faster than Global Entry.
- ianhawes 9y ago
  I'm not sure if this is the same as "Mobile Passport", but Mobile Passport allows you to complete the kiosk information on your phone and in most airports (IAD/BWI tested) if you tell the usher (non-CBP employee with the airport) that you're doing Mobile Passport, they let you skip to the immigration counter bypassing several long lines.
  - fastaguy88 9y ago
    They seem to be functionally the same, though CBP has different web pages for the two programs.
- harper 9y ago
  This was my plan. If GE is no longer an option - let's move to all the other options. I was more worried about losing TSA pre tbh.
alex95 9y ago
Out of interest, why is the target at Amazon here? This could be for any means of purchase and not just Amazon. Targeting Amazon and pointing the finger is calling Amazon the bad one, but actually it's an import issue. You could suggest it's their fault, but that's a pretty long chain of blame which isn't really right.
vxNsr 9y ago
C-c-c-c-class action anyone? This seems ripe for a class action lawsuit against either amazon or the USCBP (are you even able to sue them). Obviously suing each brand wouldn't work because there just wouldn't be enough litigants for a class action, but maybe we can hold amazon responsible for this and make them change somethings?
- ashelmire 9y ago
  Of course you can sue CBP. https://holdcbpaccountable.org/category/all-cases/ https://holdcbpaccountable.org/category/all-cases/
monksy 9y ago
If the conterfit goods thing was really their excuse, they should just eliminate anyone that has travelled to China and bought anything.
dwg 9y ago
Making "legitimate" purchases on Amazon gets more difficult every day. The obvious solution is to buy directly from brands, but I keep using Amazon because it's less risky than spreading personal and credit card details across many sites. There's also Amazon prime... Hopefully better e-commerce solutions can eventually take over this trust, and more brands choose to sell direct. This would really help with the growing counterfeit problem. One-time-use credit card numbers also help. I used this feature all the time when Discover offered it, but unfortunately they stopped. Now companies like privacy.com now offer it as a service, but adoption is probably slowed down by needing to trade-off rewards for privacy. It's yet another reason why I hope cryptocurrencies succeed. In the future I want to pay for anything without the seller having access to my personal information. Even if you trust the merchant, it's too tempting for thieves. Maybe someday someone will also solve the issue around shipping details. Like a DNS for shipping addresses. That would be awesome.
mirimir 9y ago
It's funny to see an inline Amazon Prime ad in an article that sheds such poor light on Amazon. It's also troubling to see inline ads at all, but hey.
bonestamp2 9y ago
I sometimes buy things on amazon assuming it is coming from amazon directly and only later realize it was being drop shipped from overseas. I used to think that wasn't a big deal since I really only check the estimated arrival date if I need something in a hurry. But, as of this article, it is a big deal no matter what because it changes who the importer is... If something ships from Amazon then it was Amazon or a third party who imported the goods. If it ships directly to me from another country then I am the importer and I am on the hook for customs issues that I am not in control of (ex. is it OEM or is it counterfeit). Amazon needs to make it very clear who and where each item is being imported from when it's not shipping from a warehouse in the same country as the delivery address. They have to stop pretending they are walmart or target in the cloud and that every purchase is a safe purchase.
hoveringcto 9y ago
Did they simply take the name/address from the label or did they actually go to Amazon for billing information? You could just have all your packages shipped under a different name.
gnu8 9y ago
We need to start sanctioning the people who come up with this stuff. Lock the people associated with the CBP out of flying on any US airline, or purchasing anything from an online merchant.
outworlder 9y ago
This is worrying. So, some time ago, I was looking to buy lemongrass seeds. The lemongrass that is sold on either supermarkets or farmers markets usually has the leaves cut. And that’s precisely the leaves my wife looks for, to make tea. Okay fine, let’s grow our own. We had little success growing from existing lemongrass, so why not try from seeds them. Couldn’t find seeds on Home Depot. Found a seller on, guess what, Amazon. There was no indication that the seller wasn’t in the US (but in retrospect, no indication he was) so I ordered without thinking much about it. Fast forward a couple of months, I received the open packet (sans seeds) and a document indicating that import was not allowed. They also had lab test results attached, which indicated lemongrass seeds (by their scientific name) and some other seeds I can’t remember mixed in. Now, all of this was legal, it’s just a customs rule violation(given the right paperwork, one should be able to import seeds, as I undestand it). Imagine what would have happened if the seller also had planted pot in the field, and got some of those mixed in...
- cowboysauce 9y ago
  >Imagine what would have happened if the seller also had planted pot in the field, and got some of those mixed in... Your story would be completely unchanged. Customs would seize the package and you would receive a letter saying that they seized contraband and that would be the end of it. People have packages of drugs seized at customs without any consequences. Unless it's a massive amount or it happens frequently, nothing would happen to you.
bitL 9y ago
Amazon allowed an influx of shoddy Indian/Chinese sellers that sell counterfeits like crazy, and then started treating honest 3rd parties as guilty-by-default, and being very nazi about it - you talk to ML bot all the time, they won't tell you what the problem is, you just have to figure it out on your own what got you banned for no reason. Now they are increasing Prime for fun...
Hello71 9y ago
Hm... So does that mean you have a good shot at barring someone else from using trusted traveler programs by just ordering some counterfeit goods for them?
confounded 9y ago
I've been offered free access to the 'Global Entry' program as part of my job, but I've been wary because don't want the side-effects of the "rigorous background check". As a green-card holder I'm already pretty wary of them being able to search my devices or deny me entry, and I'd rather that the CBP hadn't enriched all my identifiers and got a fat-little-file on me beforehand. Given an interest in debating politics online, I wouldn't be surprised if GE membership would increase the chances that I get stopped regularly. Does anyone on HN have any knowledge or experiences about what kind of thing goes into the GE "rigorous background check"?
jrnichols 9y ago
And yet people think that we need to use the same types of list for firearm ownership & purchases. That's frightening to me still.
stmfreak 9y ago
This only reveals further the complete joke that is the TSA. Protecting us from small-time importers of counterfeit goods? Oh my!
cyphunk 9y ago
Let me get this strait. You decide to signup to your Nanny State™ fingerprint face scanning entry fast lane, and then want to cry privacy foul when they apply the Chinese Sesame Credit likened background checks on you? give me a break
Friedduck 9y ago
Imagine what the MPAA will do if they find this as another means of disincenting piracy.
tritium 9y ago
Oh god, I wonder if that’s what’s going on with a hard-to-find audio CD that I tried to order a while back...

309 points by vezycash 9y ago

Also, remember to never search for pressure cookers and backpacks led if you want to save yourself some troubles and prevent being listed on the watchlist another time (you're already there, yes you, you Linux user!) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/new-york-police-terrorism-pressure-cooker https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/new-york-polic...

throwanem 9y ago
> Suffolk County criminal intelligence detectives received a tip from a Bay Shore-based computer company regarding suspicious computer searches conducted by a recently released employee. So I guess don't do that if you work for someone who's going to send the police to your house over it after they fire you? Not sure there's really a larger point to be made here about watchlists, surveillance, or indeed anything, considering the only element of that story which couldn't happen in 1930 is the part about Google.
sofaofthedamned 9y ago
Was 2013 before all Google searches were secure? Unless your workspace is doing MITM they wouldn't see the search now. Though, obviously you'd have to trust that Google wouldn't dob you in either.
- pps43 9y ago
  I thought it's standard practice to MITM at the workplace. How else can you flag exfiltration of sensitive information and stop incoming malware? Add a certificate to browsers on employee's computers, encrypt on proxy after inspection.
  - rkeene2 9y ago
    This still breaks TLS, since it will fail with client-supplied certificates and so can't be used if you need to support TLS.
    - jessaustin 9y ago
      Computers owned by the firm have extra CAs installed. All browsers allow admins to add CAs. Unsophisticated users will never know that e.g. BlueCoat shitboxes (and everyone who has pwned those shitboxes) are reading all their TLS traffic.
      - rkeene2 9y ago
        But the web servers on the other side of the TLS connection are not managed by those same system administrators and therefore they will not accept certificates provided by such proxies, breaking TLS.
        jessaustin 9y ago
        To the external server, the shitbox is the user. To the user, the shitbox is the external server. Talk to IT/Networking people at any large firm; this is how it has worked for years. Client certs are a different thing entirely, and unrelated to this discussion.
        rkeene2 9y ago
        How are client certificates, a mandatory feature of TLS and specifically what I mentioned, and what you are replying to, unrelated to this discussion ?
        jessaustin 9y ago
        What is this "mandatory feature" stuff? We're talking [0] about employees on websites "protected" by TLS, and expecting privacy while doing so. If they order hemorrhoid cream on Amazon, their browser talks to the shitbox, the shitbox talks to Amazon, and client certs have nothing to do with that. The browser verifies that it trusts the shitbox, and nobody else verifies anything. One supposes there might be some banks or B2B sites that might use client certs, but they're such a minority that no one ever heard of them. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16186735 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16186735
lg 9y ago
that watch list must've gotten really long thanks to the instant pot craze...
- jonknee 9y ago
  Now someone just needs to make a backpack designed to carry the Instant Pot.

kstenerud 9y ago

Amazon has become an extremely unpleasant place to shop in the past two years. The proliferation of garbage sellers makes it hard to find anything. It used to be that you could avoid most of them by just ignoring anything with less than 10 reviews, but with Amazon's latest change to factor in number of reviews for their "sort by average review" list has let the genie out of the bottle. Now you'll see literally THOUSANDS of 5-star reviews on their garbage, completely drowning out the real stuff :/ It's to the point now where I'll only purchase known brand-name items from the manufacturer, and hope to god it's not a scammer using their name, or some typosquatter, or their supply chain hasn't been polluted by counterfeits. And it's only getting worse. Now I try to buy direct from individual websites like it's 1999.

te_chris 9y ago
Agree. I've cancelled prime. I'm lucky to live in London, so local UK retailers are actually pretty good in terms of delivery and click and collect options - I tend to find it easier to buy something online on Argos, then just walk down the road and collect it straight away. I don't really miss prime that much tbh. It certainly is easier sometimes, but the variability of the merch is just not worth it.
- sofaofthedamned 9y ago
  I don't use Prime and have noticed Amazon keep increasing the time taken for 'free delivery' to a point where i'll just buy it from eBay now, or direct from the retailer.
  - perl4ever 9y ago
    I cancelled my Prime subscription, but the last time I ordered from Amazon, I chose the free option which was estimated to take 5 days, and it got to me overnight, which was nice. My current complaint about Amazon is that when I order a grocery item, it's because I can't find it in a local store and Amazon charges double or triple the normal price. Oddly enough, I ordered something once in bulk for an exorbitant price, and immediately it appeared in my local grocery store for the normal price (50% less). I'm not sure what's going on, but it feels like algorithms run amuck.

chopin 9y ago

I am astonished that the OP comes to his conclusion. Since when is it a good idea to: - skip due process - punish people on unverified accusations

pjc50 9y ago
He never says he likes the way the system works, but realistically as an individual you can't change Amazon and you can't change Customs.
- CPLX 9y ago
  You could change Amazon. It seems to me that this person has an articulable case against Amazon for damages, and filing suit would certainly be a way to get higher level attention. Though if I were him I wouldn't do it either do the hassle.

cm2187 9y ago

Surely this only applies to amazon market place? Any sold or fullfilled by amazon would have already cleared customs by the time your name appear on the package? Not that it protects against being sold counterfeit goods but at least you are not involved on the step where it crosses the border.

virgilp 9y ago

If I understood correctly, this was actually Rimowa who flagged him? Ie not Amazon, not the US customs? Hell if I'd ever purchase anything from them again if I was affected by something like this; the news should really be "Beware when purchasing Rimowa products, you're exposing yourself to unnecessary risk".

bald 9y ago
I was also surprised, and then read again more carefully. The article says: "Rimowa likely had an opportunity to take some kind of action [...] they chose the easier target: Reed" which for me sounds like this conclusion is only speculation. I bet it was rather CBP directly who flagged him.
- Spoom 9y ago
  It was almost certainly CBP who flagged him. They have his address in a database for a trusted traveler program. They were the ones who intercepted the shipment. They checked the destination address on the shipment and cross-referenced it. I'm not sure how Rimowa would be involved, frankly.
  - harper 9y ago
    This is correct and exactly what the CPB officer told me.
  - bonestamp2 9y ago
    Typically, the company will get involved when they know who is importing or exporting the product and they will notify CBP so the shipment can be seized. We don't know if they were involved, but it's possible Rimowa knew who the exporter was (from seeing the fakes online and ordering one themselves) and CBP then seized the package when it was imported. The article says, "Reed never received the suitcase" which indicates that the shipment could have been seized upon entry (because they were tipped off by Rimowa to look for packages from that exporter). Now they knew who the importer was (Reed) and they added his name to a database of illegal importers. Since it was just one suitcase, it probably wasn't worthwhile going after him, but now his name was in the database (likely because they think it will help them catch more illegal imports). The tricky problem arises because there is likely no distinction in the database between one guy who didn't know he was ordering one counterfeit product for himself versus someone who imports container after container of counterfeits for resale. CBP enforces the law by seizing the product and it's up to the company to sue the importer. It's clearly a broken system with nasty ramifications for the people who got scammed.

walterbell 9y ago

Wouldn't this apply to Walmart, eBay or any 3rd-party marketplace?

minikites 9y ago
I would think so, but saying "Amazon" will get you way more clicks.
leereeves 9y ago
Does Walmart allow 3rd party sellers?
- walterbell 9y ago
  Yes: http://help.walmart.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/247/~/is-my-item-from-a-marketplace-seller%3F http://help.walmart.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/247/~/is-my-...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- ilamont 9y ago
  Far more difficult to get into. It takes months to review applications, and they reject a lot of them.
  - strictnein 9y ago
    Wish Amazon did this.

kogepathic 9y ago

I'm sorry but this is utter stupidity. Punishing consumers for ordering a product for which the supplier/supply chain sent a counterfeit which was flagged by customs is just dumb. Importing and selling counterfeit products is already illegal. If the person has a 20' shipping container full of counterfeit product, maybe investigate it and level penalties. But to disqualify someone from an entry program because of one counterfeit product, when clearly no one from Amazon, CBP, or the manufacturer put in any effort whatsoever to investigate, is just wrong IMHO. The article states the manufacturer took the lazy route and punished the innocent customer because going after Amazon and someone in China would be more effort/expense. Guilty until proven innocent. Ridiculous.

paulie_a 9y ago
What's funny is you can buy embargoed goods on Amazon.
- carlmr 9y ago
  Now we know where Little Kim orders his oil.
- rsync 9y ago
  "What's funny is you can buy embargoed goods on Amazon." Can you provide an example or two ?
  - slantyyz 9y ago
    I don't know whether they are embargoed or not, but on Amazon.ca and Amazon.uk it's very easy to find Android Kodi boxes pre-loaded with sketchy apps and Kodi plug-ins that are also fulfilled by Amazon. I'm pretty sure in Canada and the UK, that those products have been heavily targeted by the government for piracy. Several local sellers of those boxes in Canada have been prosecuted/shut down, yet they are still so easily available on Amazon.
nerdponx 9y ago
As far as I understand, in the USA it's not actually illegal to buy counterfeit goods, only to sell them.

branchless 9y ago

$700 for a suitcase. Good grief. Surely far more likely to draw the attention of an unscrupulous baggage person.

teh_klev 9y ago
If you do a serious amount of travel each year there's no substitute for a good quality piece of luggage. I know this from personal experience from years back where cheap stuff just falls apart.
- virgilp 9y ago
  You can get a Samsonite piece of luggage for less than half that amount, though. And it's decent quality - definitely not the kind of cheap stuff that falls apart.
  - teh_klev 9y ago
    Sure, but some people are happy to pay extra, maybe it's the brand, or the style, or that one unique feature not available from another less expensive brand. If you're on the move a lot then you and your luggage become engaged in a deeply personal relationship :)
  - goblin89 9y ago
    I have a Delsey suitcase (with Samsonite they’re in similar price range). I was never too careful about handling it, rolled far on various uneven surfaces outdoors, and usually filled it up in excess of 30 kg with books and equipment—it was quite reliable, I’m sure it would’ve served me for years to come. One time at baggage claim it came out without a wheel. I suppose it doesn’t matter how tough your piece of luggage is if your baggage handler happens to be having a bad day. To replace the wheel a Delsey store asked me to give it up for three weeks in Hong Kong, which I couldn’t do. Some pricier brands’s policies promise 1–3 day turnarounds, which makes a difference if you’re moving around frequently.
- jdietrich 9y ago
  Red Oxx bags are ludicrously over-built and cost under $300. Most leisure travellers would be better off with a cheap, lightweight MLC like the Rick Steves Back Door Bag.

gtirloni 9y ago

> So what happened? It’s impossible to say for sure (CBP doesn’t release specifics) I wonder how they know it was the suitcase that's causing this when... CBP doesn't release specifics.

ghaff 9y ago
I re-read the article. It's unclear to me that CBP explicitly told him that he was being denied renewal because he had tried to import a counterfeit good. It may be the case but he doesn't come right out and say "they told me..." As opposed to him just assuming that this must have been the issue.

uptown 9y ago

Not germane to the matter at hand, but an interesting side-note is that Harper Reed was also CTO for Barack Obama's 2012 re-election campaign.

harper 9y ago
probably not related. probably. ;)

jsjohnst 9y ago

I’m shocked there’s 59 comments on this and almost nobody is saying the obvious, “what proof of any kind exists that this is the reason he was denied?”. This is pure speculation and I’m predicting it’s totally wrong.

harper 9y ago
FWIW the officer told me in the interview.
- jsjohnst 9y ago
  It must have been a market place order then because otherwise you wouldn’t be listed on the customs form. That changes the story portrayed in the article and should’ve been noted (not your fault there of course unless you didn’t mention it to the person writing it). The article still has a ton of conjecture otherwise (for example, that the baggage company had any involvement in your outcome) that is suspect at best.

thebiglebrewski 9y ago

Wow the government being inefficient and dumb, color me surprised. Sadly this is the world we live in though. I wish we could trust government agencies to be more competent but so far my experience has been really subpar.

dragonwriter 9y ago

Its interesting how most of the commentary here is about Amazon, not about being denied status under a public program for “having a violation of customs laws on your record” when not only were you never convicted or found civilly liable for any such violation, and not only were you never actually even charged with such a violation, but you also never had any notice or knowledge of a customs violation having occurred, and the actual violation was a hostile party attempting to defraud you. Amazon is certainly at fault for the process which enable their platform to be used for fraud, but the core of this story is the government punishing people for offenses they not only didn't commit, but didn't know about and of which they were the intended victim.

rootusrootus 9y ago
I agree, this is the impression I had too. Why is this story about Amazon? Far more interesting and ominous is the control our gov't is increasingly exercising over citizens with very little transparency.
- slowmovintarget 9y ago
  Control? Not having Global Entry doesn't prevent you from traveling anywhere, you just don't get to use the fast lane going through Customs or TSA lines. Global Entry is elective, not a requirement. In other words, you just have normal status. The appeal process should work better in this case than it did.
  - locopati 9y ago
    for now - do you really think they're not going to expand their ability to supposedly 'know when you've been bad or good' to every traveller over time if they're given a chance?
  - rootusrootus 9y ago
    How long does the regular security process have to be before the 'privilege' of the express lane becomes more like the minimum requirement to travel? This is absolutely a form of control.

reacweb 9y ago

IMHO, amazon is guilty. Amazon has imported a counterfeit merchandise without checks on the seller. Putting the blame on the final client is unacceptable. We have a similar issue when banks are stolen and call it identity theft. The bank is guilty of not checking correctly the identity before giving money. The client should never have to endure bad consequences because of bad behavior of Amazon or banks.

moftz 9y ago
Amazon didn't handle any of the merchandise. It's Amazon Marketplace so it works like ebay, they just host the listing and process payments while the seller does all the shipment and the buyer is the one actually importing the counterfeit goods (this is what is illegal in the US). I don't think Amazon is the one at fault for the crime necessarily but they should be proactive in taking down counterfeit listings to prevent this. I've bought things on ebay before for what seemed like a fair price and it turned out to be counterfeit. I don't blame ebay for that but I wouldn't be happy if the same post was still up after I reported it for counterfeiting.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > I don't think Amazon is the one at fault for the crime Responsibility for a wrongdoing is not always restricted to one party; in this case there is one party active trying to commit a fraud involving counterfeit goods, and one profiting from a system which is structured so as to enable that fraud and make it difficult for the target to detect or avoid (which may initially have been innocent, but has been maintained that way long after the operator had information on which they reasonably should have known that was a recurring and significant issue.)
  - lsaferite 9y ago
    So you are saying any marketplace (e.g. Ebay) is actually responsible for a merchant using them to facilitate fraud? Why stop there? Let's find the merchant processor complicit and the shipping company and the ISPs. Heck, I'm sure we could extend the net further if we wanted. Point being, unless the marketplace is actively courting merchants they know are perpetuating fraud, then how are they at fault? If they get a report of a seller that is selling counterfeit goods, they take them down. What more do you expect of them?

jaclaz 9y ago

>... making every trip you take during that time a frustrating experience. Well, actually the "normal" experience that everyone but the ones that were granted the "privilege" have. I mean, the decision (provided that the reason is actually the counterfeit suitcase) seems silly, but it is not like they took away his driving license or passport, or however limited his freedom. I have no data, how many people are in the "Global Entry" thing? And how many international travels per year would justify applying (and the background check and the in-person interview)? https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-entry https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-... What is the actual difference in practice? Like half an hour to pass customs on average?

rsync 9y ago
"What is the actual difference in practice? Like half an hour to pass customs on average?" It really depends on the airport. As a US citizen returning to SFO I have spent anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours in line. I am considering signing up for Global Entry.
- jaclaz 9y ago
  >As a US citizen returning to SFO I have spent anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours in line. So, given the procedure (and the non reimboursable fee of US$ 100)and depending how distant you are from an "interview center" (and how long does the interview take): https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-entry/how-apply https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-... I would say that a "make even" point could be around 3-4 international travels planned per year (given that the program needs to be renewed after 5 years).
  - hannibalhorn 9y ago
    Everybody's situation is different, but American Express paid the Global Entry fee for me as part of the annual fee I already pay them. I believe Chase Sapphire does something similar. They actually now do the Global Entry interviews on arrival in the US at select airports, so you can just integrate it into your next international trip. For me ... well, I'm an American but I live in Colombia, which generally meant lots of questions and highly suspicious treatment before I got Global Entry. Now I don't have to say anything more than mornin' when entering the country. Totally worth it to me. :-)

mwexler 9y ago

I love Global Entry, but the mysterious and varied ways you can be denied for the mildest of issues is really frustrating.

1024core 9y ago

> so it’s more important than ever for you to pay close attention to the items you’re buying—especially if they’re being shipped to you from overseas. Watch out for massive discounts, learn how to spot fake reviews, double check who you’re buying from, and don’t hesitate to reach out to Amazon customer service if something seems amiss. So it's my responsibility now to go into the minute details of these things? Why isn't CBP doing its job? Shouldn't they be looking carefully before denying TT status? Shouldn't they be paying attention to what they are doing? I feel like more and more these government agencies just shrug and do the most expedient thing possible, even if it means screwing others over.

Myrmornis 9y ago

> When in doubt, buy luxury and big brand name items directly from their stores and websites. Be scared, and prostitute yourself.

zupa-hu 9y ago

Essentially, this brain-hack is motivating people to prefer buying from original manufacturers and big brands over cheap foreign imports. Whether it's artificially designed or not is a different question.

Paul-ish 9y ago

I wonder if you could order counterfeit goods in someone else's name (eg celebrity or politician) and get them disqualified from the trusted traveler program. It's not hard to get a CC with an arbitrary name.

fastaguy88 9y ago

Alternatives to trusted traveler -- no-longer trusted travelers (no Global Entry) can now use Automated Passport Control, an App for your smart phone, which at Dulles last week, was faster than Global Entry.

ianhawes 9y ago
I'm not sure if this is the same as "Mobile Passport", but Mobile Passport allows you to complete the kiosk information on your phone and in most airports (IAD/BWI tested) if you tell the usher (non-CBP employee with the airport) that you're doing Mobile Passport, they let you skip to the immigration counter bypassing several long lines.
- fastaguy88 9y ago
  They seem to be functionally the same, though CBP has different web pages for the two programs.
harper 9y ago
This was my plan. If GE is no longer an option - let's move to all the other options. I was more worried about losing TSA pre tbh.

alex95 9y ago

Out of interest, why is the target at Amazon here? This could be for any means of purchase and not just Amazon. Targeting Amazon and pointing the finger is calling Amazon the bad one, but actually it's an import issue. You could suggest it's their fault, but that's a pretty long chain of blame which isn't really right.

vxNsr 9y ago

C-c-c-c-class action anyone? This seems ripe for a class action lawsuit against either amazon or the USCBP (are you even able to sue them). Obviously suing each brand wouldn't work because there just wouldn't be enough litigants for a class action, but maybe we can hold amazon responsible for this and make them change somethings?

ashelmire 9y ago
Of course you can sue CBP. https://holdcbpaccountable.org/category/all-cases/ https://holdcbpaccountable.org/category/all-cases/

monksy 9y ago

If the conterfit goods thing was really their excuse, they should just eliminate anyone that has travelled to China and bought anything.

dwg 9y ago

Making "legitimate" purchases on Amazon gets more difficult every day. The obvious solution is to buy directly from brands, but I keep using Amazon because it's less risky than spreading personal and credit card details across many sites. There's also Amazon prime... Hopefully better e-commerce solutions can eventually take over this trust, and more brands choose to sell direct. This would really help with the growing counterfeit problem. One-time-use credit card numbers also help. I used this feature all the time when Discover offered it, but unfortunately they stopped. Now companies like privacy.com now offer it as a service, but adoption is probably slowed down by needing to trade-off rewards for privacy. It's yet another reason why I hope cryptocurrencies succeed. In the future I want to pay for anything without the seller having access to my personal information. Even if you trust the merchant, it's too tempting for thieves. Maybe someday someone will also solve the issue around shipping details. Like a DNS for shipping addresses. That would be awesome.

mirimir 9y ago

It's funny to see an inline Amazon Prime ad in an article that sheds such poor light on Amazon. It's also troubling to see inline ads at all, but hey.

bonestamp2 9y ago

I sometimes buy things on amazon assuming it is coming from amazon directly and only later realize it was being drop shipped from overseas. I used to think that wasn't a big deal since I really only check the estimated arrival date if I need something in a hurry. But, as of this article, it is a big deal no matter what because it changes who the importer is... If something ships from Amazon then it was Amazon or a third party who imported the goods. If it ships directly to me from another country then I am the importer and I am on the hook for customs issues that I am not in control of (ex. is it OEM or is it counterfeit). Amazon needs to make it very clear who and where each item is being imported from when it's not shipping from a warehouse in the same country as the delivery address. They have to stop pretending they are walmart or target in the cloud and that every purchase is a safe purchase.

hoveringcto 9y ago

Did they simply take the name/address from the label or did they actually go to Amazon for billing information? You could just have all your packages shipped under a different name.

gnu8 9y ago

We need to start sanctioning the people who come up with this stuff. Lock the people associated with the CBP out of flying on any US airline, or purchasing anything from an online merchant.

outworlder 9y ago

This is worrying. So, some time ago, I was looking to buy lemongrass seeds. The lemongrass that is sold on either supermarkets or farmers markets usually has the leaves cut. And that’s precisely the leaves my wife looks for, to make tea. Okay fine, let’s grow our own. We had little success growing from existing lemongrass, so why not try from seeds them. Couldn’t find seeds on Home Depot. Found a seller on, guess what, Amazon. There was no indication that the seller wasn’t in the US (but in retrospect, no indication he was) so I ordered without thinking much about it. Fast forward a couple of months, I received the open packet (sans seeds) and a document indicating that import was not allowed. They also had lab test results attached, which indicated lemongrass seeds (by their scientific name) and some other seeds I can’t remember mixed in. Now, all of this was legal, it’s just a customs rule violation(given the right paperwork, one should be able to import seeds, as I undestand it). Imagine what would have happened if the seller also had planted pot in the field, and got some of those mixed in...

cowboysauce 9y ago
>Imagine what would have happened if the seller also had planted pot in the field, and got some of those mixed in... Your story would be completely unchanged. Customs would seize the package and you would receive a letter saying that they seized contraband and that would be the end of it. People have packages of drugs seized at customs without any consequences. Unless it's a massive amount or it happens frequently, nothing would happen to you.

bitL 9y ago

Amazon allowed an influx of shoddy Indian/Chinese sellers that sell counterfeits like crazy, and then started treating honest 3rd parties as guilty-by-default, and being very nazi about it - you talk to ML bot all the time, they won't tell you what the problem is, you just have to figure it out on your own what got you banned for no reason. Now they are increasing Prime for fun...

Hello71 9y ago

Hm... So does that mean you have a good shot at barring someone else from using trusted traveler programs by just ordering some counterfeit goods for them?

confounded 9y ago

I've been offered free access to the 'Global Entry' program as part of my job, but I've been wary because don't want the side-effects of the "rigorous background check". As a green-card holder I'm already pretty wary of them being able to search my devices or deny me entry, and I'd rather that the CBP hadn't enriched all my identifiers and got a fat-little-file on me beforehand. Given an interest in debating politics online, I wouldn't be surprised if GE membership would increase the chances that I get stopped regularly. Does anyone on HN have any knowledge or experiences about what kind of thing goes into the GE "rigorous background check"?

jrnichols 9y ago

And yet people think that we need to use the same types of list for firearm ownership & purchases. That's frightening to me still.

stmfreak 9y ago

This only reveals further the complete joke that is the TSA. Protecting us from small-time importers of counterfeit goods? Oh my!

cyphunk 9y ago

Let me get this strait. You decide to signup to your Nanny State™ fingerprint face scanning entry fast lane, and then want to cry privacy foul when they apply the Chinese Sesame Credit likened background checks on you? give me a break

Friedduck 9y ago

Imagine what the MPAA will do if they find this as another means of disincenting piracy.

tritium 9y ago

Oh god, I wonder if that’s what’s going on with a hard-to-find audio CD that I tried to order a while back...