4 ms·

Gmail blacklisted by Spamhaus

44 points by fseek 16y ago

mustpax 16y ago
Oh Spamhaus, everybody who's ever had the joy of operating an SMTP agent loves them.
- mike-cardwell 16y ago
  I've run large email systems for an ISP and a University. SpamHaus's services have been a god send.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Just a little anecdote about how good spamhaus really is. I used to co-locate in Toronto, right next door to a bunch of heavy duty spammers. It so happened that there was a class C split in to three subsections, two of them belonged to the spammer and a tiny 16 host range in the middle that belonged to us. Spamhaus figured this all out by themselves and took great care not to cause any collateral damage while going after the spammers. Pretty impressive, especially since that would have been very hard to figure out from the outside.
jmathai 16y ago
I work at Yahoo! and we've been blacklisted as well by Spamhaus. I wouldn't say it's entirely inappropriate because of the sheer volume of email that can pass through our (or in this case Gmail's) system. Personally, I've tried to reach out to Google regarding security issues on blogspot which were affecting our property. There was an XSS vulnerability and we were getting thousands of posts on our blog linking to blogspot which would in turn redirect the user to some pharma site. It's been months and they haven't really made any progress other than put me in contact with various people who don't respond to email. If that's how they deal with an open XSS I can only imagine how fast they move to deal with spam like this. Disclaimer: This isn't a post bashing Google and praising Yahoo - just the only experiences I've had to contribute to this post :).
- tptacek 16y ago
  If you blacklist the mechanism by which tens of percentage points worth of Internet users send mail, you are not part of the solution to spam.
  - dingdingding 16y ago
    I know the google fanboys will hate this, but the problem is letting just anyone or just any machine create an account and use your service. It's google's responsibility to can the spam coming from their domain. Google doesn't care though. If they make it harder to get a gmail account, then they make it harder to spam their "legitimate" users with advertisements and why would they want to do that? If you are a company that provides spamming capabilities to anyone and everyone, then it is exactly valid to add them to a spam list. You could say, "Plenty of legitimate users use gmail." Fine, maybe so, but if you are someone who uses gmail, you are surrounded by a cadre of spammers and should understand your credibility is instantly devalued. Birds of a feather flock together. The solution is to stop using gmail.com. A VERY VERY high percentage of spam in my inbox comes from gmail accounts. If tens of percentages points of spam is sent from a domain, then it's valid to add them to the list of spamming domains.
    - jmathai 16y ago
      TLDR; It's a tough problem to which I have no suggestions. It's not just Google. Trust me when I say that combating spam is a full time ongoing job that never ever ends and you never ever win. I do agree that it's the responsibility of the email provider to mitigate spam but it's an incredibly difficult task to accomplish with near zero false positives. Perhaps Google could do a better job but restricting the "open" nature of signing up for and using email is not the solution. If Google does that then someone else will offer it unrestricted. It's simply too cheap for spammers to send emails. Identifying usage patterns and rate limiting or gasp charging based on them would be a step in the right direction. But that means losing users which in itself has tremendous cost.
    - bmm6o 16y ago
      > Fine, maybe so, but if you are someone who uses gmail, you are surrounded by a cadre of spammers and should understand your credibility is instantly devalued. "My credibility"? When I send my mom an email, I expect her to get it. When she sends me one, I expect to get it. >Birds of a feather flock together. Yes, because I am a spammer.</sarcasm> If gmail has a lot of spammers using their service, they should address this. But the suggestion that those caught in the crossfire should know better is one of the more frustrating things about black-listers.
tptacek 16y ago
... but wholesale DNS-based blacklisting could never blow up in our faces. Noooooo sir.
- ryanjmo 16y ago
  What do you mean by 'wholesale DNS-based blacklisting'?
  - tptacek 16y ago
    Paul Vixie has proposed an extension to the DNS that would have relay cache servers (the servers you ask for generic name lookups) store blacklists of evil domains. Anything blacklisted would, in effect, disappear from the Internet (for normal users).
    - koenigdavidmj 16y ago
      Out of curiosity, what would a `smart person' have to do to get all the domains back if this ever took root?
      - someone_here 16y ago
        An clean version of the DNS lookup table, of some sort. An IP will do.
      - photomattmills 16y ago
        use an alternative DNS that doesn't blacklist. Alternative DNS servers already exist, I'm sure there'll be someone who won't blacklist if they do implement this.
Kadin 16y ago
Seems like it might be biting off a bit more than they can chew. Given the choice between the service Spamhaus' list provides, and being able to receive mail from what's undoubtedly one of the largest webmail providers in the world (the biggest?), a lot of people are going to can Spamhaus. I'd hope that Google will react by doing something about the spam, but they could much more easily do nothing, put out some recommendation that people stop using Spamhaus, and a lot of people will be forced to do just that (or Spamhaus will blink and un-blacklist Google). They're the 800-pound gorilla in this particular match; Spamhaus isn't a lightweight but I wouldn't put any money on them in that fight.
- thenduks 16y ago
  Google isn't even close to the biggest email provider (by some sources both Yahoo and Microsoft are more than twice their size)... but your point stands :)
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
metachris 16y ago
The report website at Spamhaus: http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/sbl.lasso?query=SBL95011 http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/sbl.lasso?query=SBL95011 Some more (older): http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/listings.lasso?isp=google.com http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/listings.lasso?isp=google.com
jrockway 16y ago
Yeah, this is why I don't use Spamhaus blacklists.
- mike-cardwell 16y ago
  Because of the existence of false positives? Please let me know of a spam filtering system which doesn't have them. Really. I'd like to add it to my filtering setup...
  - jrockway 16y ago
    My Bayesian filters have much less of an agenda than Spamhaus.
    - mike-cardwell 16y ago
      That doesn't really answer my question. Bayes causes false positives too... Yet is more difficult to maintain...
furyg3 16y ago
Spamhaus is the most rabid group of extreme anti-spammer teenagers out there (or at least they act like teenagers). I've had various SMTP servers (for various companies) blocked by them, usually for very questionable reasons. You used to have to argue with them on their forum (and take a beating from all of the kids on that site) before they'd remove you. The result is that SMTP admins get it from both sides: Spammers make your life hard, rabid blackhole lists combatting spammers make your life even harder.
- auxbuss 16y ago
  Google are no better. I can't send email to gmail addresses -- well sometimes I can and sometimes I can't -- because Google (sometimes) says of my server: Our system has detected an unusual rate of 550-5.7.1 unsolicited mail originating from your IP address. To protect our 550-5.7.1 users from spam, mail sent from your IP address has been blocked. This is complete bullshit. We have SPFs in DNS. We don't relay, and have had this independently tested. We send tiny amounts (3 or 4 a week) of mainly personal email to gmail addresses. Who do I contact to sort this? Who knows? Google has no point of contact. So I'm happy for Google to have a taste of their own medicine. And my opinion of them is a rabid group of extreme anti-spammer teenagers.
  - jlees 16y ago
    Did you contact using the delivery form at http://mail.google.com/support/bin/request.py?contact_type=msgdelivery http://mail.google.com/support/bin/request.py?contact_type=m... and still get no response?
  - houseabsolute 16y ago
    I doubt that Google is tasting this at all. Probably only the unlucky companies who use Spamhaus and now have the unenviable task of going through and making sure they missed no emails from customers or partners.
  - growt 16y ago
    maybe you're on the same subnet as someone who actually spams them.
mike-cardwell 16y ago
SpamHaus has listed various gmail servers loads of times for short periods of time. It's a good idea to maintain a local whitelist, or use DNSWL.org or http://wiki.junkemailfilter.com/index.php/Spam_DNS_Lists http://wiki.junkemailfilter.com/index.php/Spam_DNS_Lists
quellhorst 16y ago
If I'm using Google Apps for my domain, does this mean I'll have worse deliverability on my email?
- fanf2 16y ago
  No.
akadruid 16y ago
Does anyone know if this affects Postini? We've switched once already this month - our new office was assigned an IP by C&W business that is in the same block as thousands of Virgin home cable-modems, so we got blacklisted by Spamhaus and others. Management got quite twitchy so I moved all the outgoing email to go via our Postini account which was previously only filtering incoming. Don't fancy having to find a third option now.
- mike-cardwell 16y ago
  Sounds like you got listed on the PBL. SpamHaus lets anyone delist their IP from the PBL...
svag 16y ago
Such solutions as this is like you have a headache, and in order to cure the pain you cut your head...
fanf2 16y ago
Spamhaus have listed the web servers for docs.google.com NOT gmail's outbound SMTP servers. Mail from gmail is not affected.

44 points by fseek 16y ago

mustpax 16y ago

Oh Spamhaus, everybody who's ever had the joy of operating an SMTP agent loves them.

mike-cardwell 16y ago
I've run large email systems for an ISP and a University. SpamHaus's services have been a god send.
jacquesm 16y ago
Just a little anecdote about how good spamhaus really is. I used to co-locate in Toronto, right next door to a bunch of heavy duty spammers. It so happened that there was a class C split in to three subsections, two of them belonged to the spammer and a tiny 16 host range in the middle that belonged to us. Spamhaus figured this all out by themselves and took great care not to cause any collateral damage while going after the spammers. Pretty impressive, especially since that would have been very hard to figure out from the outside.

jmathai 16y ago

I work at Yahoo! and we've been blacklisted as well by Spamhaus. I wouldn't say it's entirely inappropriate because of the sheer volume of email that can pass through our (or in this case Gmail's) system. Personally, I've tried to reach out to Google regarding security issues on blogspot which were affecting our property. There was an XSS vulnerability and we were getting thousands of posts on our blog linking to blogspot which would in turn redirect the user to some pharma site. It's been months and they haven't really made any progress other than put me in contact with various people who don't respond to email. If that's how they deal with an open XSS I can only imagine how fast they move to deal with spam like this. Disclaimer: This isn't a post bashing Google and praising Yahoo - just the only experiences I've had to contribute to this post :).

tptacek 16y ago
If you blacklist the mechanism by which tens of percentage points worth of Internet users send mail, you are not part of the solution to spam.
- dingdingding 16y ago
  I know the google fanboys will hate this, but the problem is letting just anyone or just any machine create an account and use your service. It's google's responsibility to can the spam coming from their domain. Google doesn't care though. If they make it harder to get a gmail account, then they make it harder to spam their "legitimate" users with advertisements and why would they want to do that? If you are a company that provides spamming capabilities to anyone and everyone, then it is exactly valid to add them to a spam list. You could say, "Plenty of legitimate users use gmail." Fine, maybe so, but if you are someone who uses gmail, you are surrounded by a cadre of spammers and should understand your credibility is instantly devalued. Birds of a feather flock together. The solution is to stop using gmail.com. A VERY VERY high percentage of spam in my inbox comes from gmail accounts. If tens of percentages points of spam is sent from a domain, then it's valid to add them to the list of spamming domains.
  - jmathai 16y ago
    TLDR; It's a tough problem to which I have no suggestions. It's not just Google. Trust me when I say that combating spam is a full time ongoing job that never ever ends and you never ever win. I do agree that it's the responsibility of the email provider to mitigate spam but it's an incredibly difficult task to accomplish with near zero false positives. Perhaps Google could do a better job but restricting the "open" nature of signing up for and using email is not the solution. If Google does that then someone else will offer it unrestricted. It's simply too cheap for spammers to send emails. Identifying usage patterns and rate limiting or gasp charging based on them would be a step in the right direction. But that means losing users which in itself has tremendous cost.
  - bmm6o 16y ago
    > Fine, maybe so, but if you are someone who uses gmail, you are surrounded by a cadre of spammers and should understand your credibility is instantly devalued. "My credibility"? When I send my mom an email, I expect her to get it. When she sends me one, I expect to get it. >Birds of a feather flock together. Yes, because I am a spammer.</sarcasm> If gmail has a lot of spammers using their service, they should address this. But the suggestion that those caught in the crossfire should know better is one of the more frustrating things about black-listers.

tptacek 16y ago

... but wholesale DNS-based blacklisting could never blow up in our faces. Noooooo sir.

ryanjmo 16y ago
What do you mean by 'wholesale DNS-based blacklisting'?
- tptacek 16y ago
  Paul Vixie has proposed an extension to the DNS that would have relay cache servers (the servers you ask for generic name lookups) store blacklists of evil domains. Anything blacklisted would, in effect, disappear from the Internet (for normal users).
  - koenigdavidmj 16y ago
    Out of curiosity, what would a `smart person' have to do to get all the domains back if this ever took root?
    - someone_here 16y ago
      An clean version of the DNS lookup table, of some sort. An IP will do.
    - photomattmills 16y ago
      use an alternative DNS that doesn't blacklist. Alternative DNS servers already exist, I'm sure there'll be someone who won't blacklist if they do implement this.

Kadin 16y ago

Seems like it might be biting off a bit more than they can chew. Given the choice between the service Spamhaus' list provides, and being able to receive mail from what's undoubtedly one of the largest webmail providers in the world (the biggest?), a lot of people are going to can Spamhaus. I'd hope that Google will react by doing something about the spam, but they could much more easily do nothing, put out some recommendation that people stop using Spamhaus, and a lot of people will be forced to do just that (or Spamhaus will blink and un-blacklist Google). They're the 800-pound gorilla in this particular match; Spamhaus isn't a lightweight but I wouldn't put any money on them in that fight.

thenduks 16y ago
Google isn't even close to the biggest email provider (by some sources both Yahoo and Microsoft are more than twice their size)... but your point stands :)
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]

metachris 16y ago

The report website at Spamhaus: http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/sbl.lasso?query=SBL95011 http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/sbl.lasso?query=SBL95011 Some more (older): http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/listings.lasso?isp=google.com http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/listings.lasso?isp=google.com

jrockway 16y ago

Yeah, this is why I don't use Spamhaus blacklists.

mike-cardwell 16y ago
Because of the existence of false positives? Please let me know of a spam filtering system which doesn't have them. Really. I'd like to add it to my filtering setup...
- jrockway 16y ago
  My Bayesian filters have much less of an agenda than Spamhaus.
  - mike-cardwell 16y ago
    That doesn't really answer my question. Bayes causes false positives too... Yet is more difficult to maintain...

furyg3 16y ago

Spamhaus is the most rabid group of extreme anti-spammer teenagers out there (or at least they act like teenagers). I've had various SMTP servers (for various companies) blocked by them, usually for very questionable reasons. You used to have to argue with them on their forum (and take a beating from all of the kids on that site) before they'd remove you. The result is that SMTP admins get it from both sides: Spammers make your life hard, rabid blackhole lists combatting spammers make your life even harder.

auxbuss 16y ago
Google are no better. I can't send email to gmail addresses -- well sometimes I can and sometimes I can't -- because Google (sometimes) says of my server: Our system has detected an unusual rate of 550-5.7.1 unsolicited mail originating from your IP address. To protect our 550-5.7.1 users from spam, mail sent from your IP address has been blocked. This is complete bullshit. We have SPFs in DNS. We don't relay, and have had this independently tested. We send tiny amounts (3 or 4 a week) of mainly personal email to gmail addresses. Who do I contact to sort this? Who knows? Google has no point of contact. So I'm happy for Google to have a taste of their own medicine. And my opinion of them is a rabid group of extreme anti-spammer teenagers.
- jlees 16y ago
  Did you contact using the delivery form at http://mail.google.com/support/bin/request.py?contact_type=msgdelivery http://mail.google.com/support/bin/request.py?contact_type=m... and still get no response?
- houseabsolute 16y ago
  I doubt that Google is tasting this at all. Probably only the unlucky companies who use Spamhaus and now have the unenviable task of going through and making sure they missed no emails from customers or partners.
- growt 16y ago
  maybe you're on the same subnet as someone who actually spams them.

mike-cardwell 16y ago

SpamHaus has listed various gmail servers loads of times for short periods of time. It's a good idea to maintain a local whitelist, or use DNSWL.org or http://wiki.junkemailfilter.com/index.php/Spam_DNS_Lists http://wiki.junkemailfilter.com/index.php/Spam_DNS_Lists

quellhorst 16y ago

If I'm using Google Apps for my domain, does this mean I'll have worse deliverability on my email?

fanf2 16y ago
No.

akadruid 16y ago

Does anyone know if this affects Postini? We've switched once already this month - our new office was assigned an IP by C&W business that is in the same block as thousands of Virgin home cable-modems, so we got blacklisted by Spamhaus and others. Management got quite twitchy so I moved all the outgoing email to go via our Postini account which was previously only filtering incoming. Don't fancy having to find a third option now.

mike-cardwell 16y ago
Sounds like you got listed on the PBL. SpamHaus lets anyone delist their IP from the PBL...

svag 16y ago

Such solutions as this is like you have a headache, and in order to cure the pain you cut your head...

fanf2 16y ago

Spamhaus have listed the web servers for docs.google.com NOT gmail's outbound SMTP servers. Mail from gmail is not affected.