15 ms·
Nice to see Toronto on the list, though game theory suggest that we're only here because having a Canadian Candidate has the potential to have all 3 levels of g
by chollida1 9y ago
Nice to see Toronto on the list, though game theory suggest that we're only here because having a Canadian Candidate has the potential to have all 3 levels of government involved rather than just state and city.
I'm not really sure how to go about handicapping the finalists.
Given the current political climate, Toronto is interesting because it's the only city that gives Amazon some escape form the US government.
You'd want:
- an international airport so you can get to Beijing, London, etc on a single flight. This might eliminate the smaller cities.
- a strong existing tech workforce and universities.
- land in the downtown core to build on, this might eliminate New York?
- perhaps you'd preference the cities that already have an amazon campus in them.
Toronto has all of these..
Ah, who am I kidding. its going to come down to which government gives them the most money and that eliminates Toronto.
Would be fun for someone in each city to make a list of what makes your city a good choice for the headquarters!!
- walterbell 9y agoHasn't Google already planted their flag in NYC and Toronto for their "smart city" kiosk surveillance & advertising network? https://www.wired.com/story/google-sidewalk-labs-toronto-quayside/ https://www.wired.com/story/google-sidewalk-labs-toronto-qua... https://gizmodo.com/nycs-free-wifi-service-is-turning-into-a-privacy-nightm-1765474061 https://gizmodo.com/nycs-free-wifi-service-is-turning-into-a...
- bryanlarsen 9y agoIf Canadian cities were in serious competition I think there'd be more than one of them on the list. There are a good number of American cities smaller than Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg and Ottawa/Gatineau on the list, let alone Montreal and Vancouver. I suspect that Toronto is the token Canadian city and won't get serious consideration. I don't blame them, in this era of Trump hyper-nationalism there'd be a huge blow-back for choosing a Canadian city.
- graeme 9y agoDo any of those cities have good international flight options? I live in Montreal, the the options are very limited compared to Toronto. I expect Montreal would be completely ruled out because of the language laws, incidentally. Fine for a branch office, unacceptable for a second HQ. So, I'm not sure you're right about Toronto being a token candidate.
- graeme 9y agoDo any of those cities have good international flight options? I live in Montreal, the the options are very limited compared to Toronto. I expect Montreal would be completely ruled out because of the language laws, incidentally. Fine for a branch office, unacceptable for a second HQ. So, I'm not sure you're right about Toronto being a token candidate. I believe it's the best candidate in Canada. But, moving to Canada is a big choice. So big you'd really want to consider only the top candidate.
- graeme 9y agoDo any of those cities have good international flight options? I live in Montreal, the the options are very limited compared to Toronto. I expect Montreal would be completely ruled out because of the language laws, incidentally. Fine for a branch office, unacceptable for a second HQ. So, I'm not sure you're right about Toronto being a token candidate. I believe it's the best candidate in Canada. But, moving to Canada is a big choice. So big you'd really want to consider only the top 1-2 candidates. I do wonder what kept Vancouver off the list though.
- justin66 9y ago> I do wonder what kept Vancouver off the list though. Housing crisis.
- itsdrewmiller 9y agoMore likely the same thing that kept Portland off - they want more distance between HQs.
- nikanj 9y agoAccording the housing crisis, there's absolutely no buildable land left anywhere in the Greater Toronto region.
- breitling 9y agoSuburb region of Durham is part of the bid...there's LOTS of land left there.
- voisin 9y agoCheck out the Woodbine’s redevelopment plan. Hundreds of acres next to Pearson airport and on rapid transit to downtown Toronto and the rest of the tech corridor. Amazon will go to Toronto and locate there. Toronto to Waterloo corridor has the highest concentration Per Capita of tech startups and engineers after Silicon Valley. It avoids US immigration nonsense and has free healthcare that saves hundreds of millions per year.
- johan_larson 9y agoOf course there's land. You just have to convert low-intensity use to high-intensity use. Go east on Bloor past Spadina, and you'll find plenty of two-story commercial buildings right on a subway line. Any of those blocks could be redeveloped into skyscrapers.
- phkahler 9y agoDetroit fits most of your criteria but has fallen off the list. Perhaps we already have enough rich guys in town: http://michiganradio.org/post/who-owns-downtown-detroit http://michiganradio.org/post/who-owns-downtown-detroit
- ellisv 9y agoMost of the criteria != all of the criteria though
- dominotw 9y ago> escape form the US government. Curious what specifically would be different between Canada and USA polices towards amazon.
- julianozen 9y agoAbility to hire international workers with ease would be huge.
- breitling 9y agoFor starters this whole immigration thing seems different. Canada welcomes immigrant workers. Even fast-tracks their applications (within 2 weeks) to work in Canada. This way Amazon can hire anyone, anywhere in the world (within reason) and they'll be able to move to Canada without any immigration issues.
- 013a 9y agoUnless they create immigration issues.
- dominotw 9y agoIn Canada, more than 60 percent of permanent residents are admitted via the economic class, most of them via the point-based system. Only one-quarter of permanent residents are admitted based on family ties. vs In the United States, about two-thirds of permanent residents are admitted because they are closely related to a U.S. citizen or a permanent resident. Less than 15 percent of permanent residents, including accompanying dependents, are admitted on the basis of employment. Immigrants in the United States are three times as likely as natives to have not completed high school; in Canada, immigrants and natives are equally likely to have not completed high school. So depends on type of workers they are looking for hq2. If they need mostly high skilled then canada might be better option.
- throwaway5752 9y agoWell, obviously and critically immigration for hiring from the necessary talent pool.
- 9y ago
- mholmes680 9y agoI think Newark set the bar on the financial discounts: $7B [1] so far, but we just changed Governors, so we'll see. I think it meets all the other requirements you mentioned, but I think we got knocked on Infrastructure on some list a month or two ago. [1] http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2017/12/10_reasons_for_amazon_to_choose_newark_for_its_sec.html http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2017/12/10_reasons_for_ama...
- RmDen 9y agoPlus Audible is in Newark as well
- melling 9y agoMaybe they can finish the PATH connection to the airport. 2.4 miles: http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2017/12/a_timeline_charting_the_path_extension_to_newark_a.html http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2017/12/a_timeline_chartin...
- bradleyjg 9y agoYou can already get from Newark Penn to the airport using NJ Transit. It isn't a terrible idea to bring the PATH there so there's a single seat ride from places that PATH services but NJ transit doesn't, but that doesn't apply to Newark.
- melling 9y agoYes, I wait to transfer and pay again. The PATH is cheaper, runs more frequently, makes several more stops in Manhattan and NJ, so it would be a better option. If you want to go downtown, for example, the PATH goes to WTC, as well as midtown.
- mholmes680 9y agoCNBC updated its grades: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/18/how-cities-rate-in-the-race-to-win-amazons-new-headquarters.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/18/how-cities-rate-in-the-race-... Given the headlines and buzz today, you'd think Amazon at this point would just create an Amazon Original reality show at this point where each week a new city gets voted off.
- larrydag 9y agoI'm in Dallas. - Currently has a large Amazon distribution center in the suburbs - Strong tech workforce and universities in the area. Other Tech companies in the area Dell(formerly EDS), ATT. Regional centers of Verizon, IBM, Microsoft, Alcatel/Lucent - Low property values and favorable tax structures. Plenty of areas to lease locations or to build in the suburbs or downtown. - International airport that is the hub of American Airlines - Toyota (North America HQ) recently moved to Dallas suburbs. Google HQ2 is rumored to be looking at Dallas.
- arcanus 9y ago> Google HQ2 is rumored to be looking at Dallas. Do you mean Apple? Dallas should be a very credible option, even if it might be #2 in Texas, behind Austin.
- pwinnski 9y agoAustin's airport makes it difficult to see that city working for Amazon. I hope it goes anywhere but Dallas! I live in Dallas.
- crx087 9y agoWhat's wrong with ABIA? It's a reclaimed airforce base with new facilities and better service ratings than LAX or JFK.
- pwinnski 9y agoNothing's particularly wrong with it. I'm just not sure it's major enough to support Amazon. I mean, I definitely hope it is, because Dallas doesn't need Amazon setting up shop here. But Chicago and Dallas seem like they have more infrastructure to support a major project like Amazon's HQ2.
- crx087 9y agoI grew up in a small town and have a hard time understanding why it's so contentious to add another major facility in a big city like Dallas or Austin. It makes almost no impact on things like traffic or social services at a population scale. (In reality, even a HQ1 type facility is just another +0.3% for DFW or +1% for ATX, which is equivalent to hastening net growth by a few months at most.)
- dx034 9y agoDenver appears to be the current favourite (also chosen by the NYT as the winner) but doesn't have any flights to Asia except for Tokyo[1]. But I guess being sufficiently connected within the US is enough, not sure how many flights to China they need. [1] https://www.flightera.net/airport/Denver/KDEN https://www.flightera.net/airport/Denver/KDEN
- ghaff 9y agoDenver has a huge airport and is a major United hub. It's just that most non-stop flights to Asia from the US leave from the West Coast (although this is less true than it used to be).
- brtt 9y agonot only that, they have approved and are planning a multi-billion dollar gate expansion project so direct asia flights aren't out of the picture.
- tequila_shot 9y agoDenver's airport is one of the biggest airports[1]. When I first moved to Denver in 2014, they didn't have a flight to India. In 2015 they announced a _direct_ flight to Banglore, India. My point being not having a flight is not really a roadblock. [1]https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/denver-international-airport-is-bigger-than-manhattan-san-francisco-miami https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/denver-inte...
- ProAm 9y agoExcept no one in Denver wants them here except the Governor and business council. It would be a huge net loss for the community and people.
- oh_sigh 9y agoI'm in Denver and your post is not accurate.
- itcmcgrath 9y ago
- jhallenworld 9y ago>- land in the downtown core to build on, this might eliminate New York? They could rent out the space in One World Trade Center.
- beamatronic 9y agoIs it fairly vacant?
- wbl 9y agoHow much you want to pay?
- make3 9y agoI think I'd feel subconsciously, irrationally wary of working in what could be argued is a bit terrorist bait like that
- jonknee 9y agoThat's not nearly enough space, the whole thing is 3m square feet with 2/3 of it leased out. Amazon currently has over 8m occupied in Seattle with millions more currently being built.
- gumby 9y ago> Nice to see Toronto on the list, though game theory suggest My bet is on Toronto because they can pick up all the staff they need worldwide without the problems of trying to get US visas.
- zzleeper 9y agoSame thought. Having 1 year to play the H1B lottery is not ideal, and they really hired lots of economists lately, most of which have this issue.
- prklmn 9y agoThey won't do this after getting bids from numerous American cities. To choose a city in Canada would piss off too much of their customer base, including the president of the country, and would have a long term material impact on sales.
- claudiulodro 9y agoHave you seen Trump's tweets about Amazon and Bezos? He's already pissed at them. Frankly if I was in their shoes I would go with Toronto also to have some sort of hedging against the US political climate.
- prklmn 9y agoI think that would be too incendiary a hedge. They have much more to lose than gain.
- s4vi0r 9y agoI think you're overestimating the trumples. He has an abysmal approval rating, and the types of people who tend appprove of him (e.g. rural poor) aren't exactly big spenders/prime consumers or whatever. Trump will raise a stink about it, but I'd be very surprised if anyone normal/reasonable felt Amazon opening hq2 in Canada to be like a personal attack against America or something.
- PerfectElement 9y agoGiven IT salaries in Canada, it would also be easier to attract Canadian engineers who don't want to move to the US.
- prions 9y agoGive your requirements, Newark would be the best candidate - EWR close by, with public transportation connections - Strong local universities, both in tech and business (Rutgers, NJIT, Stevens) - Newark development is rising, downtown is still relatively sparse - Audible is already in Newark Skeptical it will actually happen though. Wouldn't even consider myself a fan of Newark (even though I go to school here), but it's interesting that it's the smallest city on the list population wise.
- wbl 9y agoColumbia and NYU and Cornell Tech don't make the list? Newark is a borough.
- gjmarsh 9y agoAgree. I work in the area. Beyond universities, the amount of talent that goes through Newark, from NJ suburbs into NYC, every day is incredible. I would think many of those people would love to shave 20-40 minutes off their commute and stop paying city taxes.
- nerfhammer 9y agoah but then the commute is dramatically worse for people living in LI or CT, cutting you off from that labor pool.
- ravitation 9y agoNot to mention Princeton is less than an hour away too.
- grivescorbett 9y agoThere is a ton of space in Manhattan. It's expensive, but there.
- keiraarts 9y agoOut of curiosity, would the exchange rate for USD to CAD be a great advantage for Amazon?
- Tsarbomb 9y agoIt would be an incredible advantage. Salaries are already lower when compared with the other major North American tech centers. Add the exchange rate into the mix and Amazon's money will go a long way.
- otoburb 9y agoNot only salaries and the exchange rate, but total compensation (of which healthcare is a big chunk) is lower for Canadian employees because healthcare is funded by the Canadian federal and provincial governments[1]. [1] https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-care-system/reports-publications/health-care-system/canada.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-care-...
- zitterbewegung 9y agoWhy does amazon want to escape from the US govt?
- adreamingsoul 9y agoWhat is the basis for your assumption of "- a strong existing tech workforce and universities."? Amazon already has a strong and diverse tech force, in fact, they have so many tech workers that it has affected Seattle's housing crises. I highly doubt HQ2 will have that many tech workers. If anything, Amazon wants to pay less for non-tech workers because they can't write off those salaries, which implies that the location for HQ2 should be favorable for non-tech roles.
- ramzyo 9y agoFrom the linked page >>We are looking for a location with strong local and regional talent—particularly in software development and related fields
- philsnow 9y agoI think there's a continuity of business aspect. When you're among the most valuable public companies in the world, losing your one and only headquarters to a natural disaster might not kill the company, but it would be pretty catastrophic. As such, they're probably going to try to build up a pretty comparable workforce in HQ2. Amazon recently released Amazon Chime, a videoconferencing system. Maybe this was prioritized so that they'll have a homegrown thing when it comes time for a lot of your meetings to be with remote participants.
- Bhilai 9y agoI like Toronto a lot but man its so freaking cold.
- sol_remmy 9y ago"a strong existing tech workforce and universities" Hate to say it, but Northern Virginia and Raleigh have Toronto beat on this
- 2bitencryption 9y agoI'm really feeling Chicago here. Big tech workforce that's almost purely finance... but the talent is there. Proximity to one of the largest airports in the world. Chicago is a major city with lots of culture, food, attractions, etc. The proposed sites are absolutely enormous and perfect for a huge mega-complex like Amazon would want to build. Relatively short flights to both coasts, since you're smack in the center of the country.
- mindcrime 9y agoChicago is a major city with lots of culture, food, attractions, etc. Personally I love Chicago, and it's one of my favorite cities to visit in the US. And that's at least in part due to the food scene: Au Cheval, Cantina Laredo, Lao Sze Chuan, Petterino's, Wishbone, Star of Siam, Sushi Pink, etc. But... personally speaking I would not want to live and work in Chicago full-time for one big reason: the weather. It's just way too damn cold there for me in the winters. Now obviously a lot of people do choose to live there, but I can't help but think a warm weather city would be more favorable in some regards, as far as attracting talent goes. But maybe other people don't weight weather as much as I do, or just enjoy cold. Who's to say...
- selectodude 9y agoWhat an odd list of restaurants.
- mindcrime 9y agoWhat an odd list of restaurants. Oh? How so? On a related (sad) note, at least two restaurants in Chicago that I used to love are closed now: Bombay Spice, and Dragon Ranch Moonshine & BBQ. That and the Resa's location near River North. :-(
- jly 9y agoI thought the Detroit bid was compelling because it had all of the things you listed, including the Canada connection. They were proposing a campus that stretched across the river into Windsor, with full cooperation and subsidies from the Ontario government.
- snowwrestler 9y agoI doubt that land in the downtown core is a central consideration based on the fact that Northern Virginia and Montgomery County, MD are listed in addition to Washington, DC. Northern Virginia has a lot of land, an existing tech sector, a ton of data centers, one of the biggest Internet peering points in the world, and a big international airport (Dulles). It's not a cool place to live and work, though, the way the city is. It's family suburbs and strip malls, mostly.
- reaperducer 9y ago> land in the downtown core to build on, this might eliminate New York? I saw one analysis that said New York could easily handle Amazon's space requirements with existing Class A vacancies. The problem is that it's not contiguous. But then, neither are Amazon's offices in Seattle.
- agentultra 9y agoThe problem I'd see with putting a campus in Toronto would be that the transit infrastructure is bursting at the seams. Underfunded public transportation, expensive and underfunded regional transportation, and congestion along all major routes during the day. Along with the sky-rocketing cost of living there you'd filter out a lot of candidates or force people to commute over long distances on a choked network. YYZ is a decent airport but it doesn't compare to ATL or ORD. > - a strong existing tech workforce and universities I'm not saying those of us who stayed North of the border aren't great but a large portion of our talent does head South for the opportunities. Funded technology companies in Canada are hard to come by. A good 80% of the jobs here are for digital agencies. Even Google and Microsoft keep most their technology jobs mostly South of the border despite all of the incentives they're courted with. Immigration in Canada is a lot more friendly but I don't think that's going to out-weigh the benefits of the other cities listed. My money is on ATL or ORD. update: 80% is just a rough guess
- leilacc 9y ago> a large portion of our talent does head South for the opportunities. I'm sure a large portion of that (myself included) would strongly consider coming back if there were opportunities like HQ2 in Canada. And fwiw I'm always pleasantly surprised by the TTC when I go back to visit.
- agentultra 9y agoYou should read about the overcrowding! I’d like for there to be more interesting opportunities and challenges here. Doing what I can.
- mcd1978 9y agoToronto's not necessarily out of the running because of a smaller public purse; governments don't just throw money at companies for existing; they make investments that have to see returns, like, y'know, tax revenue. Wages would be significantly lower in Canada and would be in Canadian dollars. That's a pretty big financial win for Amazon.