3 ms·

You say that, but my clutch control jumped leaps and bounds (back when I drove a manual for commuting), to the point that I could keep distance with the car in

You say that, but my clutch control jumped leaps and bounds (back when I drove a manual for commuting), to the point that I could keep distance with the car in front while half a sleep and without needing to tap the break peddle. Some of the other skills I learned were less admirable. Eg learning to use a touch screen phone while keeping an eye on the car in front (I'd only do this if traffic was stationary though). And learning how to accelerate quickly because I needed to steal a small gap at a busy junction.

baddox 9y ago
Indeed, I would imagine that thousands of hours of commuting would make one an expert at those specific skills. That said, I imagine the skill ceiling is quite low and likely reached long before 10,000 hours, and the skill set is certainly different from what most people mean by “expert driver.”
- taxicabjesus 9y ago
  > That said, I imagine the skill ceiling is quite low and likely reached long before 10,000 hours, and the skill set is certainly different from what most people mean by “expert driver.” It doesnt take much practice to become a marginally-skilled driver. But that doesn't mean there's little difference between marginal drivers and people who spend their entire day behind the steering wheel... I once guesstimated that I spent maybe 7,500 hours (over 3.5 years) driving around in taxis. Towards the end of that period I started to notice things that the other cars on the road would likely do, and point this out to my passengers. "See that car? it's going to change lanes and that other guy is going to have to slam on his brakes..." After I 'retired', I was driving with my mother. Our light turned green, but I saw that the car in the cross traffic couldn't see that his light had turned red (on account of the sunset). I waited, and watched as he slammed on his brakes. There's something to putting in time on any activity. I think the relevant saying is not "practice makes perfect", but "perfect practice makes perfect". If you spend 10,000 hours practicing something wrong it won't be as helpful as 1,000 hours practicing it right. Bruce Lee said, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
  - robbiep 9y ago
    That’s a great anecdote. I’d also suggest that there are a bunch of people who could spend exactly the same period behind the wheel as you and not develop those skills though. Some people plateau and something about their makeup stops them from developing those higher ‘intuitive’ skills
  - kaybe 9y ago
    I really wonder how all this unspoken communication is going to change with self-driving cars. On the German Autobahn, the amount of observing and consideration is very high, and if people are new it can be very stressful. You basically have to keep in mind everyone around you, their respective speeds, potential moves and how a move from you will change their options and responses. One common situation is when you come up behind a slow car on your lane, but the lane to the left (where you need to go to keep your current speed and overtake) has somebody coming up fast from the back. If you move there, you might force that person to brake. Now, they obviously see your situation and might slow down a little or speed up, so you can adjust your speed (speed up and pull into the left lane or lay off the gas and delay switching just long enough to let them pass). If there is another left lane they might move over to that too if possible. In this case, the communication is mostly in those small changes in speed that tell you their intention. Now how should I read an automatic car? It's going to be very chaotic before we figure it out.
    - robotresearcher 9y ago
      One option is that the cars explicitly communicate, and make a joint plan that minimizes acceleration, danger and unexpectedness. Of course a legacy non-robot car is a special case the robots have to think about carefully. The robots will give you similar signals to those given by human drivers now. These have been active areas of research for a while now.
    - olivermarks 9y ago
      I worry that driving is the last continuous attention/frequently applied skill thing humans do, and that they will quickly deskill when they assume that a machine will automatically take them where they want to go.
jwdunne 9y ago
Yes. A good demo of this is starting off in 3rd gear (for demo purposes!). Without training fine clutch control, you'll just stall. After hours of traffic, it's easy.

baddox 9y ago

Indeed, I would imagine that thousands of hours of commuting would make one an expert at those specific skills. That said, I imagine the skill ceiling is quite low and likely reached long before 10,000 hours, and the skill set is certainly different from what most people mean by “expert driver.”

taxicabjesus 9y ago
> That said, I imagine the skill ceiling is quite low and likely reached long before 10,000 hours, and the skill set is certainly different from what most people mean by “expert driver.” It doesnt take much practice to become a marginally-skilled driver. But that doesn't mean there's little difference between marginal drivers and people who spend their entire day behind the steering wheel... I once guesstimated that I spent maybe 7,500 hours (over 3.5 years) driving around in taxis. Towards the end of that period I started to notice things that the other cars on the road would likely do, and point this out to my passengers. "See that car? it's going to change lanes and that other guy is going to have to slam on his brakes..." After I 'retired', I was driving with my mother. Our light turned green, but I saw that the car in the cross traffic couldn't see that his light had turned red (on account of the sunset). I waited, and watched as he slammed on his brakes. There's something to putting in time on any activity. I think the relevant saying is not "practice makes perfect", but "perfect practice makes perfect". If you spend 10,000 hours practicing something wrong it won't be as helpful as 1,000 hours practicing it right. Bruce Lee said, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
- robbiep 9y ago
  That’s a great anecdote. I’d also suggest that there are a bunch of people who could spend exactly the same period behind the wheel as you and not develop those skills though. Some people plateau and something about their makeup stops them from developing those higher ‘intuitive’ skills
- kaybe 9y ago
  I really wonder how all this unspoken communication is going to change with self-driving cars. On the German Autobahn, the amount of observing and consideration is very high, and if people are new it can be very stressful. You basically have to keep in mind everyone around you, their respective speeds, potential moves and how a move from you will change their options and responses. One common situation is when you come up behind a slow car on your lane, but the lane to the left (where you need to go to keep your current speed and overtake) has somebody coming up fast from the back. If you move there, you might force that person to brake. Now, they obviously see your situation and might slow down a little or speed up, so you can adjust your speed (speed up and pull into the left lane or lay off the gas and delay switching just long enough to let them pass). If there is another left lane they might move over to that too if possible. In this case, the communication is mostly in those small changes in speed that tell you their intention. Now how should I read an automatic car? It's going to be very chaotic before we figure it out.
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    One option is that the cars explicitly communicate, and make a joint plan that minimizes acceleration, danger and unexpectedness. Of course a legacy non-robot car is a special case the robots have to think about carefully. The robots will give you similar signals to those given by human drivers now. These have been active areas of research for a while now.
  - olivermarks 9y ago
    I worry that driving is the last continuous attention/frequently applied skill thing humans do, and that they will quickly deskill when they assume that a machine will automatically take them where they want to go.

jwdunne 9y ago

Yes. A good demo of this is starting off in 3rd gear (for demo purposes!). Without training fine clutch control, you'll just stall. After hours of traffic, it's easy.