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> Someone who consistently practices a craft for 8 hours a day will accumulate >10,000 hours in just 4 years, sufficient to become an expert in most non-profess

> Someone who consistently practices a craft for 8 hours a day will accumulate >10,000 hours in just 4 years, sufficient to become an expert in most non-professional activites. That assumes that all those hours result in skill impfovemeonts. They do not. Commuters don't become expert drivers just because they get stuck in traffic for hours a day.

goldenkey 9y ago
That's a false equivalence if there ever was one. When you get stuck in traffic, you aren't choosing conditions of adversity which will guide you towards higher difficulty. One could easily make the comparison between traffic jams and monotony. When one practices a skill, they get to choose the level of difficulty as well as a number of other factors related to the activity. A traffic jam is hardly comparable and it's not surprising that monotony does not really improve anyones' driving skills. However, compare your driving skills to someone from India where there are no traffic lights, and you'll probably go running out of the car. They are able to take higher risks because they deal with it every day.
- geezerjay 9y ago
  > When you get stuck in traffic, you aren't choosing conditions of adversity which will guide you towards higher difficulty. Neither do you or anyone in general when working a 9-to-5 job. Hours spent on a job do not represent skill increases. They only represent how much of your life you spent on something. I'll also add that "5 years of experience vs 1 year of experience 5 times" is a known thing.
  - yesenadam 9y ago
    Traffic jams, 9-to-5 job.. I'm not sure what those have to do with the topic at all. Yes, the 10,000 hours thing doesn't include every possible human (in)activity, no-one thinks it does.
- fellellor 9y ago
  Actually we do have traffic lights. They are just optional. Jokes aside, the conditions are different. Most traffic in India is extremely slow moving, which makes those risks possible. Go to a country where the to Urban driving speed is over 50 kph (~30 mph), say 80-100 kph, Indian drivers will refuse to take those risks.
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    >Most traffic in India is extremely slow moving, which makes those risks possible. Go to a country where the to Urban driving speed is over 50 kph (~30 mph), say 80-100 kph, Indian drivers will refuse to take those risks. That explains a lot.
laumars 9y ago
You say that, but my clutch control jumped leaps and bounds (back when I drove a manual for commuting), to the point that I could keep distance with the car in front while half a sleep and without needing to tap the break peddle. Some of the other skills I learned were less admirable. Eg learning to use a touch screen phone while keeping an eye on the car in front (I'd only do this if traffic was stationary though). And learning how to accelerate quickly because I needed to steal a small gap at a busy junction.
- baddox 9y ago
  Indeed, I would imagine that thousands of hours of commuting would make one an expert at those specific skills. That said, I imagine the skill ceiling is quite low and likely reached long before 10,000 hours, and the skill set is certainly different from what most people mean by “expert driver.”
  - taxicabjesus 9y ago
    > That said, I imagine the skill ceiling is quite low and likely reached long before 10,000 hours, and the skill set is certainly different from what most people mean by “expert driver.” It doesnt take much practice to become a marginally-skilled driver. But that doesn't mean there's little difference between marginal drivers and people who spend their entire day behind the steering wheel... I once guesstimated that I spent maybe 7,500 hours (over 3.5 years) driving around in taxis. Towards the end of that period I started to notice things that the other cars on the road would likely do, and point this out to my passengers. "See that car? it's going to change lanes and that other guy is going to have to slam on his brakes..." After I 'retired', I was driving with my mother. Our light turned green, but I saw that the car in the cross traffic couldn't see that his light had turned red (on account of the sunset). I waited, and watched as he slammed on his brakes. There's something to putting in time on any activity. I think the relevant saying is not "practice makes perfect", but "perfect practice makes perfect". If you spend 10,000 hours practicing something wrong it won't be as helpful as 1,000 hours practicing it right. Bruce Lee said, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
There's a difference between going through the motion and actually doing something that improves your skill. Commuting doesn't help with improving your "driving skill" (whatever that means) just like eating 3 meals every day doesn't make you a master champion eater that wins the hot dog eating contest.
- Swizec 9y ago
  You say that but after 30 years on this earth I almost never choke on my food anymore.
mtgx 9y ago
I think the 10,000h thing should have a caveat that you also must do the 10,000 with the purpose of improving that skill, and not just doing something for 10,000 hours absent-minded. So if you wanted to improve your driving then you'd do 10,000h of driving in which you'd try to become better than the last hour in every one of those hours. Similarly, runners don't just do "running for fun" when they try to improve their skill, or count walking as part of their 10,000 hours. They try to beat their previous scores when they train.
- epicide 9y ago
  This is exactly what Cal Newport talks about in So Good They Can't Ignore You. He calls it "deliberate practice" and gives the examples of playing guitar. He (Cal) started playing around the same time as [professional guitarist] and claims to have likely played around the same number of hours. The difference was that he stuck to songs he was comfortable with. If he ever tried to learn a song that was out of his reach, he would give up and learn a different song. Contrast with the other guy, who would constantly push himself to not only play songs just outside of his comfort zone, but push himself to play them faster. I believe he used a phrase that really stuck with me: the idea of "being comfortable with being uncomfortable".
JabavuAdams 9y ago
Not a good comparison. We're discussing active practice. It turns out that if you draw for 20 hours a week, you will get better at drawing. If you read art-history books for 10 hours a week during your commute, you'll get better at art history. If you cycle-commute to work for 5 hours a week, you'll get fit.

goldenkey 9y ago

That's a false equivalence if there ever was one. When you get stuck in traffic, you aren't choosing conditions of adversity which will guide you towards higher difficulty. One could easily make the comparison between traffic jams and monotony. When one practices a skill, they get to choose the level of difficulty as well as a number of other factors related to the activity. A traffic jam is hardly comparable and it's not surprising that monotony does not really improve anyones' driving skills. However, compare your driving skills to someone from India where there are no traffic lights, and you'll probably go running out of the car. They are able to take higher risks because they deal with it every day.

geezerjay 9y ago
> When you get stuck in traffic, you aren't choosing conditions of adversity which will guide you towards higher difficulty. Neither do you or anyone in general when working a 9-to-5 job. Hours spent on a job do not represent skill increases. They only represent how much of your life you spent on something. I'll also add that "5 years of experience vs 1 year of experience 5 times" is a known thing.
- yesenadam 9y ago
  Traffic jams, 9-to-5 job.. I'm not sure what those have to do with the topic at all. Yes, the 10,000 hours thing doesn't include every possible human (in)activity, no-one thinks it does.
fellellor 9y ago
Actually we do have traffic lights. They are just optional. Jokes aside, the conditions are different. Most traffic in India is extremely slow moving, which makes those risks possible. Go to a country where the to Urban driving speed is over 50 kph (~30 mph), say 80-100 kph, Indian drivers will refuse to take those risks.
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago
  >Most traffic in India is extremely slow moving, which makes those risks possible. Go to a country where the to Urban driving speed is over 50 kph (~30 mph), say 80-100 kph, Indian drivers will refuse to take those risks. That explains a lot.

laumars 9y ago

You say that, but my clutch control jumped leaps and bounds (back when I drove a manual for commuting), to the point that I could keep distance with the car in front while half a sleep and without needing to tap the break peddle. Some of the other skills I learned were less admirable. Eg learning to use a touch screen phone while keeping an eye on the car in front (I'd only do this if traffic was stationary though). And learning how to accelerate quickly because I needed to steal a small gap at a busy junction.

baddox 9y ago
Indeed, I would imagine that thousands of hours of commuting would make one an expert at those specific skills. That said, I imagine the skill ceiling is quite low and likely reached long before 10,000 hours, and the skill set is certainly different from what most people mean by “expert driver.”
- taxicabjesus 9y ago
  > That said, I imagine the skill ceiling is quite low and likely reached long before 10,000 hours, and the skill set is certainly different from what most people mean by “expert driver.” It doesnt take much practice to become a marginally-skilled driver. But that doesn't mean there's little difference between marginal drivers and people who spend their entire day behind the steering wheel... I once guesstimated that I spent maybe 7,500 hours (over 3.5 years) driving around in taxis. Towards the end of that period I started to notice things that the other cars on the road would likely do, and point this out to my passengers. "See that car? it's going to change lanes and that other guy is going to have to slam on his brakes..." After I 'retired', I was driving with my mother. Our light turned green, but I saw that the car in the cross traffic couldn't see that his light had turned red (on account of the sunset). I waited, and watched as he slammed on his brakes. There's something to putting in time on any activity. I think the relevant saying is not "practice makes perfect", but "perfect practice makes perfect". If you spend 10,000 hours practicing something wrong it won't be as helpful as 1,000 hours practicing it right. Bruce Lee said, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

cocktailpeanuts 9y ago

There's a difference between going through the motion and actually doing something that improves your skill. Commuting doesn't help with improving your "driving skill" (whatever that means) just like eating 3 meals every day doesn't make you a master champion eater that wins the hot dog eating contest.

Swizec 9y ago
You say that but after 30 years on this earth I almost never choke on my food anymore.

mtgx 9y ago

I think the 10,000h thing should have a caveat that you also must do the 10,000 with the purpose of improving that skill, and not just doing something for 10,000 hours absent-minded. So if you wanted to improve your driving then you'd do 10,000h of driving in which you'd try to become better than the last hour in every one of those hours. Similarly, runners don't just do "running for fun" when they try to improve their skill, or count walking as part of their 10,000 hours. They try to beat their previous scores when they train.

epicide 9y ago
This is exactly what Cal Newport talks about in So Good They Can't Ignore You. He calls it "deliberate practice" and gives the examples of playing guitar. He (Cal) started playing around the same time as [professional guitarist] and claims to have likely played around the same number of hours. The difference was that he stuck to songs he was comfortable with. If he ever tried to learn a song that was out of his reach, he would give up and learn a different song. Contrast with the other guy, who would constantly push himself to not only play songs just outside of his comfort zone, but push himself to play them faster. I believe he used a phrase that really stuck with me: the idea of "being comfortable with being uncomfortable".

JabavuAdams 9y ago

Not a good comparison. We're discussing active practice. It turns out that if you draw for 20 hours a week, you will get better at drawing. If you read art-history books for 10 hours a week during your commute, you'll get better at art history. If you cycle-commute to work for 5 hours a week, you'll get fit.