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People complain about racism whenever ethnically Chinese or in this case a naturalized Chinese citizen within the IC is subjected to extra security scrutiny, bu
by rdl 9y ago
People complain about racism whenever ethnically Chinese or in this case a naturalized Chinese citizen within the IC is subjected to extra security scrutiny, but China has a very effective intelligence program taking advantage of these people, and is very aggressive at pursuing espionage against the US. This is probably not sustainable.
- throwwwwaway9 9y agoRacism or not it's reality IMO. Blackmail or patriotism does wonders to "help" your old country. FBI can threaten you or your brother in law with jail for x, y and Z unless you help them. So can the Chinese
- rdl 9y agoI think it has to be done, but it should be done respectfully and proportionately — a high ranking CIA case officer merits much more scrutiny than a NASA scientist, etc. I think we have seen enough serious counterintelligence failures over the past decade that something has to be done culturally and technically.
- tptacek 9y agoIt's unclear what it is you think needs to be done here, and since the preceding post seems to suggest that our government persecute the families of those suspected to be involved in espionage, some clarity would be welcome.
- rdl 9y agoI assume he was pointing out why having family or close connections overseas and in a potentially hostile or at least adversarial nation has long been a factor in clearance investigations.
- whatyoucantsay 9y agoInteresting. Would you then see refusing top secret security clearance to a spouse or sibling of a spy to be "persecution"?
- rdl 9y agoEr, I missed the second part of this. I don't advocate them doing anything unconstitutional; merely that in the initial clearance process and ongoing clearance process for cleared employees that relations hostile or adversarial foreign powers continue to be a factor in investigation. It might mean putting more resources into specifically China-focused CI in the screening and review process. It might mean longer clearance processing (as a result) for people with extensive contacts with China (and since I go to China multiple times/year, I'd fall under this). It might mean borderline cases with lots of connections to China get denied whereas lots of connections to e.g. Brazil don't. And this should be much higher for people in particularly sensitive positions (like case officers at CIA) vs. NASA scientists working on largely open source science.
- throwwwwaway9 9y agoYeah but they are probably trusted little to start (as all new hires) and over the decades they gain trust. Then a light lights up in Beijing...
- tptacek 9y agoThere are 4.8 million Chinese-Americans in the United States. The last time we publicly charged one of them with espionage, the judge ended up publicly apologizing to them and the government cut a $1.8MM settlement. People complain about racism when arguments are rooted in racism.
- rdl 9y agoThat one was badly done, but there have been several since then; eg Candace Claiborne which was slam dunk.
- seanmcdirmid 9y agoNot to mention the American resident we falsely accused of being a communist and then basically forced back to China to kickstart their rocket and nuclear programs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen
- shams93 9y agoYup he worked with Jack Parsons, the entire original crew of rocket scientists we're driven out and Jack Parsons was on his way to Israel when he "accidentally" died in the middle of moving. One if the other engineers moved to France and became a famous french visual artist. The Chinese member of the team was thrown out for completely racist reasons and went on to found the Chinese nuclear missile program. The social cost of racism is so immense it's mind boggling. Without racism neither NK nor China would have nukes. I'm
- justicezyx 9y agoIt sounds like native Americans have less chance of being un loyal to USA? Not sure if that’s true.
- toomanybeersies 9y agoBy Native Americans do you mean indigenous Americans (i.e. American Indians), or just people born in the USA in general?
- cjslep 9y agoNative Americans is always understood to mean the indigenous people of North and South America and their descendants. "American Indians" is a term that has fallen out of favor due to its roots in colonialism. Edit: Yes, technically, people born in North and South America now are native to it. But Native Americans isn't a technical term, it is a cultural one that is widely understood to be so.
- rdl 9y agoThey don't have an obvious foreign power to which they may have pre-existing relationships. They could still be motivated for financial, ego, or ideological reasons. USSR/Russia was more often ideologically motivated people (and very small amounts of money). Israeli spying in the US has been "for the benefit of Israel" (and possibly tacitly supported by some of all of USG, potentially somewhat officially). Chinese spying seems to be largely of the "loyalty" form. A lot of it is pure commercial or military technology from commercial entities. All things being equal, someone with minimal foreign relations is going to be a better security risk for USG than someone with extensive relationships with foreign entities. For intelligence aimed at a foreign country, it's obviously an asset to have a lot of interconnectedness with that country, so it's a balancing act; you'd probably be willing to take that risk for a case officer but probably less so for a support staff. For positions where technical skill is required and in short supply, it may be worth that risk too; you'd have to look at the totality of the situation. Since China has such an active intelligence program focused on the US, it's a greater risk than, say, Germany or the UK.
- QAPereo 9y agoSounds like a stellar way to miss out on talent, alienate people thereby creating opportunities for foreign intelligence agencies, and create institutional and cultural blind spots. Much like the obsession with Islamic terrorism, it ignores the potential of betrayal from racially/culturally “safe” places. Most of all though, if your security relies on racism to succeed, it’s already failing. You can’t psychically find traitors, and traitors don’t have a race. Traitors can be turned from any group and the only defense is to evaluate everyone impartially, relentlessly, and consistently. If you find those measures insufficient, don’t turn to profiling race, study behavior! Profiling is like torture... it appeals to people who don’t understand a damned thing about how either fails in practice... or it appeals to people who already like such ideas regardless of merit.
- dis-sys 9y agoread the article, the mentioned espionage is about "compromising" US spies operating in China.