5 ms·

That's the bubble mentality of someone who lives in the city and/or doesn't have a family. How about you try hauling a baby in a stroller, diaper bag, and two o

by vlozko 9y ago

That's the bubble mentality of someone who lives in the city and/or doesn't have a family. How about you try hauling a baby in a stroller, diaper bag, and two other kids to a metro train (if you're so lucky to have one close) and then onto a bus. Ride sharing doesn't solve those problems, either, especially since you'd be in need of carseats. So no, automobile ownership is not dumb. There's plenty of use cases where it's the obvious solution.

kasey_junk 9y ago
That is a fairly normal and commonly solved problem all over the United States. Lots and lots of people who can't afford to own cars deal with this and worst as a matter of course. Making life easier for people who choose to not own cars, has positive impact for those who can't own cars (and not to even begin on reducing the negative externalities). For the record, I own a car but also frequently hauled a baby stroller and a diaper bag to the metro train (though only for one kid). The secret was to have a stroller that was geared for walking not the SUV sized strollers so popular with the SUV set.
- vlozko 9y ago
  I did specify being close to the city being a factor in how doable it is to go without a car. And even then, there are limiting factors that make car ownership worthwhile. Things like: 1. Monthly Costo/BJs run (with family in tow) 2. Visiting family that's over an hour away and not along any rail/bus line. 3. You live in a pretty remote area. Essentially, I'm saying that there are life choices and/or criteria met that makes lack of car ownership feasible. But since so many Americans live in the suburbs without easy access to public transportation, car ownership just makes the best sense for some people.
  - phil21 9y ago
    > But since so many Americans live in the suburbs without easy access to public transportation, car ownership just makes the best sense for some people. And I doubt many folks would have a problem with that, except for the fact that car transportation is by far the most heavily subsidized lifestyles around without even factoring environment or societal external costs. Add suburbs to that and the people living the worst possible lifestyle for the environment are being bailed out by the rest of the country who does not live like that. That's my major problem with car culture in the US. It's basically welfare for the wealthiest of Americans.
  - kasey_junk 9y ago
    Yeah i wasn’t disagreeing with the not stupid part. Was disagreeing with the difficulty part. It’s not hard to prioritize living a car limited life. In particular I find the “schlepping kids” argument uncompelling because the stuff you schlepp grows to the ease of schlepping. Lots of people with no choice handle this as the easiest part of their day. If anything my argument is that we should make it more stupid to own a car.
- carlmr 9y ago
  >Making life easier for people who choose to not own cars, has positive impact for those who can't own cars (and not to even begin on reducing the negative externalities). And people who drive cars. Because less congestion if there are half as many cars on the road.
  - crzwdjk 9y ago
    Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out that way, because congestion tends to be the limiting factor for demand for car trips thanks to a very low perceived marginal cost. So as soon as congestion reduces somewhat, that extra capacity suddenly makes it more attractive for the marginal driver to take a marginal trip, and traffic increases (but not quite all the way back up to its original level).
    - carlmr 9y ago
      Not if more people forego the car entirely. The marginal trip costs are high if you don't have a car. Even if you could rent one cheaply over the weekend, it's more marginal cost than if you have it in your garage. A lot of European cities with good public transport and narrow medieval roads still have less traffic than American cities with 4 lane roads.
cbcoutinho 9y ago
I'll accept that there are reasons for having a car related to child rearing, especially for the first, say, 5-10 years of a child's life. After that, ditch the car and get back to using public transportation or human-powered locomotion. When I was growing up my family had a car, but around middle school it was possible to bike to any school/sports/extracurricular activity within 20 minutes. My parents kept the car for a number of reasons, but getting to work was numero uno. If getting to work was simpler with public transportation then we would have been able to get rid of the car much more easily. Now living in a big city - Amsterdam - makes living without a car magnitudes easier.
- test6554 9y ago
  The other thing is germs. Even mild germaphobes will never ditch their cars. If you have a kid that is too young to have had all their vaccinations yet, it's a major concern.
  - cozzyd 9y ago
    zip up their stroller?
  - smileysteve 9y ago
    from bubble boy to bubble people.
grey-area 9y ago
I do this, though we could afford a car - and it's totally fine. Of course you make different choices, for example using scooters for the kids and ditching the stroller early, using bikes, planning out journeys, and allowing a little more time. I wish more people lived without a car in my current city, it'd make life more pleasant for everyone. Outside a city of course, the equation is different and public transport just can't work for everyone, but in large cities life would be better if no-one had cars.
test6554 9y ago
If you get back home with 50+ % of your kids, you get a medal.
astura 9y ago
What? Talk about "bubble mentality," this is the very definition of "white people problems." Kids take the bus all the time with their parents. My brother, sister,and I took the bus all the time with my mom or grandma or occasionally both when we were very young. Sometimes when we'd add in a few cousins too, then we'd be rolling 8+ deep. My parents car was always breaking down and my grandma never learned to drive so it was just totally normal to hear "we're taking the bus today." When we were a little older (ages 3 4 and 6ish) we would take the bus with the teenage babysitter and her friend to go do something (usually it was ice skating). It's just such a non-issue. I really can't understand what sort of "problem" you'd have that you wouldn't have, say, walking on the sidewalk, or going to a store, or just leaving the house at all.
- GhostVII 9y ago
  What does it have to do with white people? And I don't think they were saying that it is impossible to ride the bus with a family, but it is certainly not as nice, especially in places with poor public transit. Try taking public transit when you live a 10 minute drive out of the city, its just not going to work. Ride sharing isn't great because if you have a large family you have to split up, and it's not available everywhere.
  - astura 9y ago
    "white people problems" is an idiom - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=White%20People%20Problems https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=White%20Peop... >As defined by the great Louis CK in his concert film "Hilarious", these problems affect Americans in the middle to upper class. This is when your life is so amazing, that you make shit up to be upset about. Riding on a bus with children is not different from walking on the sidewalk with children, going to the store with children, going to the park with children, going to any public event with children, or simply leaving the house with children. If you read the thread, the context was about "Cities need to invest in public infrastructure, especially fast efficient public transit" the reply was "you can't ride the bus with children because, idk, they exist?" My post was directed at that reply.
- 9y ago
yardie 9y ago
And yet people have to do this everyday out of necessity. The alternative to not driving is not no car, public transport, ride sharing, and car hire all fill a need. BTW, met a few people with marginal income. They totally wrecked their credit by buying a car. They did not foresee the TCO on a car. After loan payments, insurance, gas, and maintenance they were barely keeping afloat. Payday loans finally sank them and the cars ended up being repossessed anyway. They are still stuck paying the loan since the bank fees and depreciation weren't removed.
- copperred 9y ago
  I feel that many of the uber/lyft drivers are in this position. They squeeze some money out of the asset that they have, but in the long run I don't see how they come out ahead.
  - astura 9y ago
    Love him or hate him, Mr. Money Mustache figured he's make less than minimum wage driving for Uber https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/11/22/mr-money-mustache-uber-driver/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/11/22/mr-money-mustache... That being said, it would make sense to drive for Uber in some small subset of the population: if you enjoy driving and would otherwise just be out joyriding, might as well get paid. Or if you are a student with varying classwork loads or bored people who would rather be doing something than watching TV.
vidarh 9y ago
When my son was 3 months, we took him, his stroller, two large suitcases and assorted smaller stuff on a vacation that involved a train, then a ferry, then a taxi to get to the hotel, followed by multiple buses over the following days, then a taxi, a train, a ferry, another train and a taxi to get to the next hotel, then multiple buses again, before another taxi, a train, a second train, and a taxi to get home. It was not a problem.
devdas 9y ago
It's not that hard, from what I can see on public transport.
hycaria 9y ago
Have less kids ?
Neil44 9y ago
I was listening to a radio programme yesterday where they discussed the dominance of young white males in shaping tech and how that can exclude other demographics without them even being aware of it. That bubble mentality is exactly the issue. They often don't have the perspective and experience to realise that what seems completely tacit to them just does not apply universally. And they don't know that they don't know.

by vlozko 9y ago

kasey_junk 9y ago

That is a fairly normal and commonly solved problem all over the United States. Lots and lots of people who can't afford to own cars deal with this and worst as a matter of course. Making life easier for people who choose to not own cars, has positive impact for those who can't own cars (and not to even begin on reducing the negative externalities). For the record, I own a car but also frequently hauled a baby stroller and a diaper bag to the metro train (though only for one kid). The secret was to have a stroller that was geared for walking not the SUV sized strollers so popular with the SUV set.

vlozko 9y ago
I did specify being close to the city being a factor in how doable it is to go without a car. And even then, there are limiting factors that make car ownership worthwhile. Things like: 1. Monthly Costo/BJs run (with family in tow) 2. Visiting family that's over an hour away and not along any rail/bus line. 3. You live in a pretty remote area. Essentially, I'm saying that there are life choices and/or criteria met that makes lack of car ownership feasible. But since so many Americans live in the suburbs without easy access to public transportation, car ownership just makes the best sense for some people.
- phil21 9y ago
  > But since so many Americans live in the suburbs without easy access to public transportation, car ownership just makes the best sense for some people. And I doubt many folks would have a problem with that, except for the fact that car transportation is by far the most heavily subsidized lifestyles around without even factoring environment or societal external costs. Add suburbs to that and the people living the worst possible lifestyle for the environment are being bailed out by the rest of the country who does not live like that. That's my major problem with car culture in the US. It's basically welfare for the wealthiest of Americans.
- kasey_junk 9y ago
  Yeah i wasn’t disagreeing with the not stupid part. Was disagreeing with the difficulty part. It’s not hard to prioritize living a car limited life. In particular I find the “schlepping kids” argument uncompelling because the stuff you schlepp grows to the ease of schlepping. Lots of people with no choice handle this as the easiest part of their day. If anything my argument is that we should make it more stupid to own a car.
carlmr 9y ago
>Making life easier for people who choose to not own cars, has positive impact for those who can't own cars (and not to even begin on reducing the negative externalities). And people who drive cars. Because less congestion if there are half as many cars on the road.
- crzwdjk 9y ago
  Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out that way, because congestion tends to be the limiting factor for demand for car trips thanks to a very low perceived marginal cost. So as soon as congestion reduces somewhat, that extra capacity suddenly makes it more attractive for the marginal driver to take a marginal trip, and traffic increases (but not quite all the way back up to its original level).
  - carlmr 9y ago
    Not if more people forego the car entirely. The marginal trip costs are high if you don't have a car. Even if you could rent one cheaply over the weekend, it's more marginal cost than if you have it in your garage. A lot of European cities with good public transport and narrow medieval roads still have less traffic than American cities with 4 lane roads.

cbcoutinho 9y ago

I'll accept that there are reasons for having a car related to child rearing, especially for the first, say, 5-10 years of a child's life. After that, ditch the car and get back to using public transportation or human-powered locomotion. When I was growing up my family had a car, but around middle school it was possible to bike to any school/sports/extracurricular activity within 20 minutes. My parents kept the car for a number of reasons, but getting to work was numero uno. If getting to work was simpler with public transportation then we would have been able to get rid of the car much more easily. Now living in a big city - Amsterdam - makes living without a car magnitudes easier.

test6554 9y ago
The other thing is germs. Even mild germaphobes will never ditch their cars. If you have a kid that is too young to have had all their vaccinations yet, it's a major concern.
- cozzyd 9y ago
  zip up their stroller?
- smileysteve 9y ago
  from bubble boy to bubble people.

grey-area 9y ago

I do this, though we could afford a car - and it's totally fine. Of course you make different choices, for example using scooters for the kids and ditching the stroller early, using bikes, planning out journeys, and allowing a little more time. I wish more people lived without a car in my current city, it'd make life more pleasant for everyone. Outside a city of course, the equation is different and public transport just can't work for everyone, but in large cities life would be better if no-one had cars.

test6554 9y ago

If you get back home with 50+ % of your kids, you get a medal.

astura 9y ago

What? Talk about "bubble mentality," this is the very definition of "white people problems." Kids take the bus all the time with their parents. My brother, sister,and I took the bus all the time with my mom or grandma or occasionally both when we were very young. Sometimes when we'd add in a few cousins too, then we'd be rolling 8+ deep. My parents car was always breaking down and my grandma never learned to drive so it was just totally normal to hear "we're taking the bus today." When we were a little older (ages 3 4 and 6ish) we would take the bus with the teenage babysitter and her friend to go do something (usually it was ice skating). It's just such a non-issue. I really can't understand what sort of "problem" you'd have that you wouldn't have, say, walking on the sidewalk, or going to a store, or just leaving the house at all.

GhostVII 9y ago
What does it have to do with white people? And I don't think they were saying that it is impossible to ride the bus with a family, but it is certainly not as nice, especially in places with poor public transit. Try taking public transit when you live a 10 minute drive out of the city, its just not going to work. Ride sharing isn't great because if you have a large family you have to split up, and it's not available everywhere.
- astura 9y ago
  "white people problems" is an idiom - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=White%20People%20Problems https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=White%20Peop... >As defined by the great Louis CK in his concert film "Hilarious", these problems affect Americans in the middle to upper class. This is when your life is so amazing, that you make shit up to be upset about. Riding on a bus with children is not different from walking on the sidewalk with children, going to the store with children, going to the park with children, going to any public event with children, or simply leaving the house with children. If you read the thread, the context was about "Cities need to invest in public infrastructure, especially fast efficient public transit" the reply was "you can't ride the bus with children because, idk, they exist?" My post was directed at that reply.
9y ago

yardie 9y ago

And yet people have to do this everyday out of necessity. The alternative to not driving is not no car, public transport, ride sharing, and car hire all fill a need. BTW, met a few people with marginal income. They totally wrecked their credit by buying a car. They did not foresee the TCO on a car. After loan payments, insurance, gas, and maintenance they were barely keeping afloat. Payday loans finally sank them and the cars ended up being repossessed anyway. They are still stuck paying the loan since the bank fees and depreciation weren't removed.

copperred 9y ago
I feel that many of the uber/lyft drivers are in this position. They squeeze some money out of the asset that they have, but in the long run I don't see how they come out ahead.
- astura 9y ago
  Love him or hate him, Mr. Money Mustache figured he's make less than minimum wage driving for Uber https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/11/22/mr-money-mustache-uber-driver/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/11/22/mr-money-mustache... That being said, it would make sense to drive for Uber in some small subset of the population: if you enjoy driving and would otherwise just be out joyriding, might as well get paid. Or if you are a student with varying classwork loads or bored people who would rather be doing something than watching TV.

vidarh 9y ago

When my son was 3 months, we took him, his stroller, two large suitcases and assorted smaller stuff on a vacation that involved a train, then a ferry, then a taxi to get to the hotel, followed by multiple buses over the following days, then a taxi, a train, a ferry, another train and a taxi to get to the next hotel, then multiple buses again, before another taxi, a train, a second train, and a taxi to get home. It was not a problem.

devdas 9y ago

It's not that hard, from what I can see on public transport.

hycaria 9y ago

Have less kids ?

Neil44 9y ago

I was listening to a radio programme yesterday where they discussed the dominance of young white males in shaping tech and how that can exclude other demographics without them even being aware of it. That bubble mentality is exactly the issue. They often don't have the perspective and experience to realise that what seems completely tacit to them just does not apply universally. And they don't know that they don't know.