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Side node: is China doing ok in terms of innovation? If yes, how come in such a regime? I would expect everything to be stuck in bureaucracy.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
China is authoritarian on political issues but extremely laissez faire on almost everything else, which is how they grew their economy so quickly but also got into this pollution mess in the first place. There is a bureaucracy for sure, but you can often ignore it if you are prepared to ask for forgiveness rather than permission (or they eventually crackdown).
zxcvvcxz 9y ago
>If yes, how come in such a regime? I would expect everything to be stuck in bureaucracy. Haha you're funny... It's us in the West stuck with bureaucracy. China's growth is unprecedented, with a labor force that's becoming more educated and has always been very hungry for work (no beer or foosball needed). We're finally starting to see engineers and scientists trained here going back after they graduate. For a startup, China potentially has all the following advantages: - Lower operating costs - Less regulations - Bigger market Those are pretty huge. Of course there's the big authoritarian elephant in the room, but in practice this is less detrimental to most startups than one would think.
- quadcore 9y ago
  Can you become a billionaire there and not get all your money taxed?
- briandear 9y ago
  Less regulations? LOL. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=137e018c-80cb-4f16-ac38-64bd616615e9 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=137e018c-80cb...
stelonix 9y ago
If anything, it goes to show representative democracy plus unrestrained capitalism is not the only way to run a modern, advanced civilization.
- quadcore 9y ago
  Already you're jumping to conclusions :D
- briandear 9y ago
  China a "modern, advanced civilization?" You've clearly never lived in China. China is all about the façade. And a MODERN, advanced civilization wouldn't be polluting their entire country like it was a tannery in 1758. Taihu lake, near Suzhou, is practically radioactive. Fish in pretty much any freshwater within the entire country is toxic. I lived in China for 3 years or so and as soon as my son was born, we got the hell out -- it's a fun place, but no "modern, advanced" civilization operates like China. It's a country of mostly uneducated, superstitious peasants who suddenly got a lot of money and are kept in line with the threat of "re-education" or death. Even an artist has to fear for his life. http://aiweiwei.com http://aiweiwei.com Then there's Lui Xiaobo. Remember, this "modern, advanced" civilization still has Traditional Chinese Medicine as a "thing." It's a complete fraud with zero scientific basis: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/retconning-traditional-chinese-medicine/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/retconning-traditional-chin... This "modern, advanced" civilization is responsible for massive worldwide poaching to satisfy demand for quack TCM remedies: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/08/08/extinction-by-traditional-chinese-medicine-an-environmental-disaster/#c42db405bd31 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/08/08/extinctio... Really, powdered rhino horn? That's has the chemical composition of human fingernails -- and works just as "effectively." They still do "postpartum confinement" http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/11/china/chinese-postpartum-confinement/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/11/china/chinese-postpartum-c... -- based on pretty much nothing but old wives tales and dangerous superstition. Then there's the atrocious human rights record: https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/china-and-tibet https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/china... I actually like China -- but the CCP isn't running a "modern, advanced civilization." They're the Beverly Hillbillies.
mtw 9y ago
The government is communist but in terms of business, it's more capitalistic than many western countries. People are also hard-working and very ambitious, and there is wild innovation in places like Shenzen (hardware) or Beijing (AI). Although innovation sometimes simply means copying/stealing. There are ingenuous innovation though.
- jeffbax 9y ago
  There's a lot of market dynamism in China, but businesses don't generally do much without a permission slip -- at least once they reach a certain size. Business in China is very tied to government… so capitalistic, but generally of the crony variety
eksemplar 9y ago
The bureaucracy typically help business when it works. It’s not meant to be directed by day-to-day driven politicians or exposed to lobbyism. It’s supposed to be a safety net to make sure society keeps on track as it speeds along. That’s what it is in China, with the added benefit of it actually supporting their local and hindering foreign businesses. In a lot of areas it’s us in the west who are stuck behind a hopelessly inefficient bureaucracy, but on the upside, you’re less likely to drop through a poorly constructed escalator or have your local lake filled with industrial waste (well, unless you’re American I guess).
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Our local lakes are still pretty clean, Trump hasn’t dismantled the EPA (yet). Western bureaucracy differs from Chinese bureaucracy in that it is more deterministic, the rules are more obvious and more fairly enforced. In China, there is a huge difference based on your guanxi level. I wouldn’t trade our system for theirs.
  - justicezyx 9y ago
    According to Trump, Hillary escaped jail time because "Guanxi", or whatever equivalent things to guanxi.
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Ya, Trump also said Obama was born in Kenya and that he’d release his tax returns eventually.
bluGill 9y ago
When a bureaucracy decides to do something they do it well. This usually means high level leaders tell everybody that X is a priority so they do X - at the expense of all the other things (both important and unimportant) that they are looking after.
JamesBarney 9y ago
They are doing ok, but remember it's a country of a billion people and the second biggest economy in the world. So they are not nearly as innovative as they could be.
sangnoir 9y ago
> Side node: is China doing ok in terms of innovation? Despite that the HN consensus saying otherwise - I'll say yes, China is innovating just fine. Just a few days back, I got downvoted for stating that DJI was forcing competitors to exit the drone market by out-innovating them. > If yes, how come in such a regime? Perhaps because innovation and governance model aren't as coupled as some would assume/like?
Robotbeat 9y ago
Perhaps by having 5 times the population of the US, they can accomplish quite a lot even if the authoritarianism hinders innovation. More brains, more dreams, more ideas.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

China is authoritarian on political issues but extremely laissez faire on almost everything else, which is how they grew their economy so quickly but also got into this pollution mess in the first place. There is a bureaucracy for sure, but you can often ignore it if you are prepared to ask for forgiveness rather than permission (or they eventually crackdown).

zxcvvcxz 9y ago

>If yes, how come in such a regime? I would expect everything to be stuck in bureaucracy. Haha you're funny... It's us in the West stuck with bureaucracy. China's growth is unprecedented, with a labor force that's becoming more educated and has always been very hungry for work (no beer or foosball needed). We're finally starting to see engineers and scientists trained here going back after they graduate. For a startup, China potentially has all the following advantages: - Lower operating costs - Less regulations - Bigger market Those are pretty huge. Of course there's the big authoritarian elephant in the room, but in practice this is less detrimental to most startups than one would think.

quadcore 9y ago
Can you become a billionaire there and not get all your money taxed?
briandear 9y ago
Less regulations? LOL. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=137e018c-80cb-4f16-ac38-64bd616615e9 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=137e018c-80cb...

stelonix 9y ago

If anything, it goes to show representative democracy plus unrestrained capitalism is not the only way to run a modern, advanced civilization.

quadcore 9y ago
Already you're jumping to conclusions :D
briandear 9y ago
China a "modern, advanced civilization?" You've clearly never lived in China. China is all about the façade. And a MODERN, advanced civilization wouldn't be polluting their entire country like it was a tannery in 1758. Taihu lake, near Suzhou, is practically radioactive. Fish in pretty much any freshwater within the entire country is toxic. I lived in China for 3 years or so and as soon as my son was born, we got the hell out -- it's a fun place, but no "modern, advanced" civilization operates like China. It's a country of mostly uneducated, superstitious peasants who suddenly got a lot of money and are kept in line with the threat of "re-education" or death. Even an artist has to fear for his life. http://aiweiwei.com http://aiweiwei.com Then there's Lui Xiaobo. Remember, this "modern, advanced" civilization still has Traditional Chinese Medicine as a "thing." It's a complete fraud with zero scientific basis: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/retconning-traditional-chinese-medicine/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/retconning-traditional-chin... This "modern, advanced" civilization is responsible for massive worldwide poaching to satisfy demand for quack TCM remedies: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/08/08/extinction-by-traditional-chinese-medicine-an-environmental-disaster/#c42db405bd31 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/08/08/extinctio... Really, powdered rhino horn? That's has the chemical composition of human fingernails -- and works just as "effectively." They still do "postpartum confinement" http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/11/china/chinese-postpartum-confinement/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/11/china/chinese-postpartum-c... -- based on pretty much nothing but old wives tales and dangerous superstition. Then there's the atrocious human rights record: https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/china-and-tibet https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/china... I actually like China -- but the CCP isn't running a "modern, advanced civilization." They're the Beverly Hillbillies.

mtw 9y ago

The government is communist but in terms of business, it's more capitalistic than many western countries. People are also hard-working and very ambitious, and there is wild innovation in places like Shenzen (hardware) or Beijing (AI). Although innovation sometimes simply means copying/stealing. There are ingenuous innovation though.

jeffbax 9y ago
There's a lot of market dynamism in China, but businesses don't generally do much without a permission slip -- at least once they reach a certain size. Business in China is very tied to government… so capitalistic, but generally of the crony variety

eksemplar 9y ago

The bureaucracy typically help business when it works. It’s not meant to be directed by day-to-day driven politicians or exposed to lobbyism. It’s supposed to be a safety net to make sure society keeps on track as it speeds along. That’s what it is in China, with the added benefit of it actually supporting their local and hindering foreign businesses. In a lot of areas it’s us in the west who are stuck behind a hopelessly inefficient bureaucracy, but on the upside, you’re less likely to drop through a poorly constructed escalator or have your local lake filled with industrial waste (well, unless you’re American I guess).

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Our local lakes are still pretty clean, Trump hasn’t dismantled the EPA (yet). Western bureaucracy differs from Chinese bureaucracy in that it is more deterministic, the rules are more obvious and more fairly enforced. In China, there is a huge difference based on your guanxi level. I wouldn’t trade our system for theirs.
- justicezyx 9y ago
  According to Trump, Hillary escaped jail time because "Guanxi", or whatever equivalent things to guanxi.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Ya, Trump also said Obama was born in Kenya and that he’d release his tax returns eventually.

bluGill 9y ago

When a bureaucracy decides to do something they do it well. This usually means high level leaders tell everybody that X is a priority so they do X - at the expense of all the other things (both important and unimportant) that they are looking after.

JamesBarney 9y ago

They are doing ok, but remember it's a country of a billion people and the second biggest economy in the world. So they are not nearly as innovative as they could be.

sangnoir 9y ago

> Side node: is China doing ok in terms of innovation? Despite that the HN consensus saying otherwise - I'll say yes, China is innovating just fine. Just a few days back, I got downvoted for stating that DJI was forcing competitors to exit the drone market by out-innovating them. > If yes, how come in such a regime? Perhaps because innovation and governance model aren't as coupled as some would assume/like?

Robotbeat 9y ago

Perhaps by having 5 times the population of the US, they can accomplish quite a lot even if the authoritarianism hinders innovation. More brains, more dreams, more ideas.