8 ms·
Were the Cuban sonic attack victims actually poisoned?
- Gibbon1 9y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciguatera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciguatera Duh.
- QAPereo 9y agoDo you really think a battery of tests weren’t run for any toxin with an acceptable symptom profile? Ciguatoxin is hardly undetectable, along with virtually all of the pharmaceuticals, heavy metals, and toxins listed.
- Gibbon1 9y agohttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2579736/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2579736/ "In the absence of a human biomarker to confirm CFP, the diagnosis of CFP is based on the clinical scenario and the patient’s recent fish-eating history. CFP is associated with gastrointestinal (GI), cardiovascular, neurological and neuropsychiatric symptoms and signs."
- QAPereo 9y agoDoesn’t really explain the tinnitus, the recorded sound, and while you’re right that no human bio markers exist there are characteristic forms of demyelinating injuries. There’s really never a reason to be that focused on a differential diagnosis, especially when there is no treatment. ...Unless you’re a nation state that really wants to figure it out. If you’re willing to put people through hell just to diagnose them, it’s probably doable.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- danielrhodes 9y agoI have no real data to back this up, but when these news reports came out I looked up the symptoms and lead poisioning also seemed very plausible.
- amelius 9y agoQuote: > The symptoms can last from weeks to years, and in extreme cases as long as 20 years, often leading to long-term disability. Most people do recover slowly over time. Doesn't look like the same thing.
- Alex3917 9y agoIt's also roughly the same symptoms that are caused by the mycotoxins from black mold.
- drpgq 9y agoAs a Canadian, this has always seemed weird that they were Canadian victims too. Sure Canada is a US ally, but there's been a pretty big difference in policy toward Cuba between the two.
- Simulacra 9y agoPerhaps the two nations shared a common space or Corridor
- toomanybeersies 9y agoThe US Embassy in Habana and the Canadian embassy are around 5 km apart from each other, so it does seem unlikely. It could be deflection. Target apparently random people, so that it's difficult to tell who the real target was.
- dx034 9y agoBut then why Canada? Why not Switzerland as a much more independent country?
- QAPereo 9y agoWhere those affected known to have visited the US embassy?
- totalZero 9y agoI wonder if the Canadians and the Americans frequented the same places in their off hours.
- ctack 9y agoPossibly it was something in a restaurant's food or bar.
- awinder 9y agoHow’s the Canadian relationship with Russia going?
- tyingq 9y agoI don't know that there's enough info for an outsider to reliably guess what actually happened...poison, versus microwave attacks, versus sonic attacks, etc. However, there seems to be enough smoke to assume "some kind of deliberate attack". That, on it's own, seems enough to dictate the path forward. More onus and pressure on the Cubans to solve it. Certainly they could provide an environment immune from most vectors.
- carlmr 9y agoEven when the story broke, experts agreed that a sonic attack as described originally was pretty much impossible with known technology or even the known properties of sound waves. Microwaves don't penetrate walls like this. And poisoning isn't so well localized if they didn't deliberately poison some of the people. Something strange is afoot.
- duncanawoods 9y ago>> However, there seems to be enough smoke to assume "some kind of deliberate attack". I strongly disagree. Its highly irresponsible to claim an illness of unknown source is an attack and turn ignorance into casus belli. The unquestioning certainty of an attack absent of evidence has fuelled my skepticism. I'd consider self-inflicted foolishness from US's own incompetent secret services more likely than an "attack".
- tyingq 9y ago
- spyder 9y agoHow could it be tinnitus if there is a recording of the sound? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocwjNJ6EGyQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocwjNJ6EGyQ
- matte_black 9y agoWhat’s more damning is the sound only occurred in certain locations in a room.
- gpm 9y agoThe actual recorded sound could be a diversion I guess.
- im3w1l 9y agoAttack people with stupid weapon then make spooky noises to confuse - I like the theory.
- knodi123 9y agoI wonder what the recording setup was; sensitivity, hardware, etc. I believe a sonic attack is possible, but I'd also like to see similar sonic-attack investigations of architecturally similar buildings in the US.
- ademarre 9y agoAn interesting Wired article [0] considered a hybrid cause: > "Possibly [...] inaudible infra- and ultrasound could be synergistic with an ototoxin just as industrial factory noise can be." [0] https://www.wired.com/story/us-diplomats-sonic-attack-ototoxicity/ https://www.wired.com/story/us-diplomats-sonic-attack-ototox...
- arca_vorago 9y agoI just want to say as a person who has to live with tinnitus, (too much gunfire in my ear), I could swear sometimes I hear the same ringing but it's an outside source. I've always just rationalized it away, but I still notice it.
- 9y ago
- aaron695 9y agoMore junk news combined with junk science. > "to include evidence that the 24 victims showed clear patterns of brain abnormalities." "U.S. officials wouldn’t say whether the changes were found in all 24 patients." [1] It's mass psychogenic illness. What is interesting is that after the Guardian reported this, within hours the government released the cicadas chirping recordings. Which this junk article contradicts the earlier junk article (How does one record something that's only in ones head and has no one heard a cicada before?) What's the governments play here? They had the recordings ready to go to attack back on the obvious mass psychogenic illness. I'd guess ass covering by someone who realizes this has gotten out of hand but can't pull it back in without looking bad. Mass psychogenic illness mostly effects females, it'd be interesting to know the ratio here. [1] https://www.apnews.com/bbed1d7f6f1a4320a7e60abfdce67d4d https://www.apnews.com/bbed1d7f6f1a4320a7e60abfdce67d4d
- rev_null 9y agoWhat if it was an accidental poisoning? Maybe the embassy got a shipment of bad rum. Methanol poisoning would explain the white matter damage and disorientation.
- toomanybeersies 9y agoIt's borderline impossible to accidentally get methanol poisoning from distilled spirits. The vast majority of cases you hear about on the news are due to spirits being cut with industrial methanol, or people accidentally drinking industrial methanol in the belief that it's ethanol. Poorly distilled spirits are going to taste bad, but they aren't going to kill you (except for ethanol poisoning). Also, if it was methanol poisoning (deliberate or not), they'd have severe vision impairment, which we haven't heard anything about.
- razakel 9y ago>The vast majority of cases you hear about on the news are due to spirits being cut with industrial methanol So methanol poisoning is more likely to be the result of fraudsters selling fake branded bottles of spirits, rather than moonshine?
- toomanybeersies 9y agoThat's usually the case, yes.
- NKZZ 9y agoNot just more likely, it's a matter of certainty. Ethanol is one of the possible treatments to methanol poisoning. Drinking badly made moonshine that has some methanol is like drinking both the poison and the cure (because ethanol will compete for treatment within the liver against methanol). It's really impossible to get poisoned by methanol by accident. If you drink enough methanol to suffer from it it's because people added a large amount of it to your drink. Whatever methanol is found in badly made moonshine just isn't enough to show any effect, not when you consider the fact that the ethanol of the moonshine will pretty much stop your body from absorbing methanol.
- arca_vorago 9y agoFBI and other sweeps have repeatedly turned up nothing localized, so whatever is transmitting is likely not in the building(s) unless they are passive-reflectors. The general public probably have no idea just how advanced directed energy weapons are these days, which is what I am guessing this is, but I think they might be much longer range than people thing. Of course it's all speculation.
- newintellectual 9y agoNo. It was very likely microwaves.
- sowbug 9y ago"Salvi said drugs prescribed to alleviate the side effects of chemotherapy, like Cisplatin...." Correction: Cisplatin is the chemotherapy drug that causes those side effects. It is indeed ototoxic.
- agumonkey 9y agolet me add that in the case of cisplatin, morphine to ease the pain is the vomit inducing compound (sadly)
- c3534l 9y agoI'm going to guess it's not a physics-breaking, direct and conspicuous attack on foreign diplomats for observable reason.
- boomskats 9y agoI'm not sure it wasn't a false flag if I'm honest, especially considering the amount of publicity & nature of reporting around the incidents.
- awalton 9y agoLiterally from the first moment the story broke, I had completely discounted the magical sonic weapon theory and was wondering what was in their environment and whether they had instead been poisoned. It fits vastly better, and there are much better questions to be asked probing the nature of the poisoning. The entire "sonic weapon" angle seemed to be some kind of fabrication to immediately drum up Cold War feelings against Cuba and the ongoing efforts to end the embargo and return to normalcy. In fact, it was this very story that makes me wonder to this day if Obama's move to normalize relations with Cuba in 2014-15 was the inciting incident behind Russia's decision to start the Digital Cold War in the first place.
- rangibaby 9y ago> In fact, it was this very story that makes me wonder to this day if Obama's move to normalize relations with Cuba in 2014-15 was the inciting incident behind Russia's decision to start the Digital Cold War in the first place. I think NATO's assassination of Gaddafi was a disaster re: relationship with Russia 2011: "Putin blamed himself for letting Gaddafi go, for not playing a strong role behind the scenes" [0] 2012: US threatens military action in Syria: "red line" 2013: Russia gives refuge to Edward Snowden 2013: John Kerry gives Syria a week to destroy their chemical weapons. "(Syria) isn't about to do it and it can't be done". Lavrov immediately negotiates a non-military solution. [1] 2014: Direct Russian intervention following the overthrow of the Ukrainian government (cf Yugoslavia) 2015: Full-scale Russian military props up the Syrian government side in the Syrian civil war (cf Libya) 2016: Russia is accused of manipulating the US election [0] http://www.nola.com/opinions/index.ssf/2017/04/obamas_red_line_failure_brough.html http://www.nola.com/opinions/index.ssf/2017/04/obamas_red_li... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_2118 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Counci...
- pharke 9y agoIt amazed me at the time of the 'red line' incident how little credence most people gave to the threat intimated by Russia should the US take action in Syria. Those on the right took it as a turn to jab at Obama over perceived weakness and the Left was in a frenzy to initiate some kind of 'humanitarian police action' with neither side seeming to give a damn that their leaders were standing toe to toe with their Russian counterparts in the first credible example of brinkmanship in the new millennia.
- debt 9y agoCould be a stolen US/China weapon or at least a stolen smaller component of a larger US weapon. Or stolen IP of some new weapon which was then built by the thieves. Maybe this was originally supposed to be use as a component of missile defense and now it’s been repurposed as a brain melter. I only say this because I don’t know if many countries have the budget to develop advanced, new weaponry. This may be a leak of epic proportions as some group is running around with some deadly advanced new weapon. The existence of these weapons might reveal which weapons our government is focused on.
- tritium 9y agoIf this story keeps showing up in the news, but without any real information, I’d suspect that this constant simmering vagueness belies undisclosed information locked behind operational secrecy that prevents the public from understanding the media pressure and the suspicion. This is to say, fingers are being pointed, but we only receive incomplete information. It’s sort of like seeing two neighbors bicker about trash collection and garbage cans, but they leave out glaring details about known trash can abductions by space aliens, that they’ve been summoning with multi-colored LED flash lights.
- mehrdadn 9y ago...poison? Aren't there actual recording(s) of the sounds? [1] I guess this doesn't rule out them having bee poisoned on top of it, but it sure does raise eyebrows. Are they hypothesizing sounds were used to cover up the poison or something? And given that even the article acknowledges some had concussions (here's another source I saw it in [2]) I'm not sure why the poison hypothesis is being entertained? [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghdLfQsztBo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghdLfQsztBo [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/14/mystery-of-sonic-weapon-attacks-at-us-embassy-in-cuba-deepens https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/14/mystery-of-son...
- anon1253 9y agoSound could be a red herring
- helyerart 9y agoSomething like this may explain the localized noise: https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23431264-600-ultrasonic-speaker-lets-you-whisper-to-people-30-metres-away/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23431264-600-ultrason...
- basicplus2 9y agoMicrowave attack/accident
- fgGAMI 9y agoThey all had sex with the same prostitutes exclusive to US diplomats and contracted a form of syphilis that causes brain damage.
- ackfoo 9y agoBecause of the embargo, Cubans are using a lot of stuff that the rest of us got rid of a long time ago. I would guess that the cause is something in the environment to which native Cubans have developed a tolerance or else an avoidance habit. Embassy personnel go there and live in the community without these habits or tolerance, and some of them get sick.
- matt4077 9y agoI've been to Cuba for three months, and a friend spend a year there. It's really not uncommon for foreigners to do so. This isn't North Korea. We didn't develop any symptoms that cannot be explained by either "ethanol poisoning" or "sunburn".
- KboPAacDA3 9y agoIntense stress can also cause these symptoms.
- Nicksil 9y agoSkeptoid had a very interesting episode [0] on this subject recently. The analysis points to a mass psychogenic event; makes sense. References and further reading located at end of article. [0] https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4603 https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4603