7 ms·

Ford to boost investment in electric cars by 2022

38 points by tankenmate 9y ago

madengr 9y ago
Electrifying current models, as the article says, is a bad idea. You loose many advantages of an electric car, such as more interior room. I’m surprised Toyota is so far behind.
- tankenmate 9y ago
  I suspect the reason that Ford are electrifying current models is because of two reasons, a) inventors dilemma and the sales teams / channels that don't want to undercut their current stock of models, and b) for an organisation as large as Ford the change will take years to plan. I'd look for ground up EVs from Ford after two more year model cycles (i.e. about 6 years time); even if they wanted to move quicker I suspect that organisationally they'd struggle. Toyota are still wedded to the hybrid models of cars, they are the world leaders there, by volume heads and shoulders the first, by technology first or very nearly so.
- Shivetya 9y ago
  the technology is far from mature and world wide it would be even a bigger leap to electrify cars where grids are not reliable nor roads. when the sales are such a paltry number of total automobile sales its kind of hard to be behind. batteries and charging systems have a long way to go hence betting on hybrids combined with ev tech is the best bet short term. plus much work is being done in range extended EVs with the REX still up in the air. hauling a thousand pounds of batteries for the short ranges we see now is not a good solution
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
pricetag 9y ago
I really hope this pans out for them. Their stock has been flat for a while now, but they’ve also claimed they were heavily investing in electric vehicles for some time as well. It’ll be interesting to see who will take the lead in the next 5 years- startup automakers like Tesla or these larger auto titans who in theory should have been first to the game.
iagooar 9y ago
Too late. You can't wait 4 years in this fast-paced world. The best time to start was tomorrow. The second best is today.
bischofs 9y ago
I'll wait till I hear they have a model actually moving to production. The big oems across the board have been great at convincing people they are looking toward future tech while only releasing new combustion pickup truck and SUV models. They want the excitement for the investors and public that electrification brings but they also want to sell super simple 50 year old V8 motors in body-on-frame trucks, something has to give. The 2018 auto show is a great example, the big three refreshed all of their pickup models without any news on production or prototype ev's. The "investments" dont mean much if they are minuscule compared to combustion development. Granted its what people are buying right now but they are not really putting any compelling alternatives out in the market.
- vvanders 9y ago
  I wouldn't got that far on the truck front, in fact Ford just announced a V6 Turbo Diesel half-ton that should get 30MPG(the Dodge equivalent EcoDiesel already sees 28-30mpg in real-world scenarios). You're not going to see a truck that will fill that role as pure EV for a long while(and I say that as a Model S owner). Agreed on the announce-but-not-build front. VW did the same but seems like GM is the only one following through.
  - bischofs 9y ago
    I see your point with electric pickup trucks, they will probably be the last to convert. Also I would point out that 3.0 ford engine you are referring to has been around since 2009 as the lion engine in various international markets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17 It probably has a different calibration for the US market to meet stricter emissions but that's about it.
    - vvanders 9y ago
      Oh yeah, totally. The EcoDeisel is the same case(Fiat engine from Europe). I'm just happy to see more efficient engines making it into the US. The fact that you can have a vehicle that will tow 8k GW but get 30mpg unloaded is fantastic. The X can tow 6k GW but range really tanks so it's okay for short hops but usually when you're towing you're going to be driving > 200mi.
jonwachob91 9y ago
> 40 hybrid and fully electric I suspect the bulk of the 40 will be hybrids, not prius type hybrids, but 918/P1/LaFerrari/i8 type hybrids. They are more fun to drive than 100% gas cars, and are more green than traditional hybrid vehicles.
- mulmen 9y ago
  What's the difference between a "Prius type hybrid" and a "918 type hybrid"?
  - jonwachob91 9y ago
    A Prius does 0-60 in 10.5 seconds [1], a 918 does 0-60 in 2.2 seconds [2]. [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/prius https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/prius [2] https://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-2015-porsche-918-spyder-is-the-quickest-road-car-in-the-world-feature-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-2 https://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-2015-porsche-918-s...
derekp7 9y ago
Here's what I'd like to see. Either a plugin hybrid version of the Ford Fusion that gets at least 50 - 100 miles in EV mode (instead of 21), or something like a Tesla with a smaller (50 - 75 mile) battery powering the front wheels, with a 50-HP ICE powering the rear wheels. Something like this could still give you more than 95% EV-only, yet can still be your main car as you have the ICE as a range extender. And by trading battery for the gas engine, you end up with about the same weight/cost as a 350-mile range EV only car, but never have range anxiety.
- axau 9y ago
  What’s wrong with a Chevy Volt? (~50 battery only, 400+ total)
  - derekp7 9y ago
    That is one of the cars that fits my criteria, along with one of the models that BMW has out (i3, is it?). The problem I have is the styling, they are styled to look different than a regular sedan (also I didn't really care for the ride, the Volt felt like driving a lower end model). The thing I like about the Fusion is that it is a regular car model, that has hybrid and plugin as options (kind of like picking different sized ICE engines). The thing that I really like about the Fusion Hybrid is that it really feels nice to drive -- smooth, kind of like a magic carpet (I'd imagine that a Tesla feels similar). Ideally, I'd like to see this for nearly all manufacture models -- electrification added to existing lines, instead of whole new designs.
    - DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
      The conspiracy-minded part of me thinks the GM/BMW electric cars are styled so differently to make them unappealing to “normal” (non-early adopters) to either deliberately sabotage the project or at least to avoid making the cars too popular. They really seem bent on squeezing the most from their century-old investment in ICE.
- serpix 9y ago
  Chevrolet Volt since 2009 is like this.
gpsx 9y ago
To make electric cars really mainstream, I think it would help to make some standard, easily removable battery modules that different manufacturers use. Then they sell the electyric car without battery and you lease the battery from providers something like a gas stations. It's not a new idea. I think it is just a matter of waiting for the market to be ready. But its kind of a chicken and egg problem.
- elsonrodriguez 9y ago
  I don't think introducing another recurring payment is the best thing for society. The market will be ready for battery leases when the average person can't afford their own battery outright.
  - gpsx 9y ago
    Jsut to be clear, the idea was that you would go to the gas station and trade in an empty battery for a full one. In this case it is better for the people to not own the battery since they will be getting different ones all the time. Of course it would also make sense to allow people to keep the battery and recharge it themselves, in which case they would be paying for holding the battery.
    - craftyguy 9y ago
      I wholeheartedly agree, and believe that this model is the only way to make electric vehicles mainstream. Battery performance/range can only be improved so much with the current technology (and future battery tech. is still a looong ways off), and not everyone is willing to wait tens of minutes to charge their vehicles (e.g. when on long-distance trips.)
- e12e 9y ago
  > It's not a new idea. Indeed... "In order to overcome the limited operating range of electric vehicles, and the lack of recharging infrastructure, an exchangeable battery service was first proposed as early as 1896. The concept was first put into practice by Hartford Electric Light Company through the GeVeCo battery service and initially available for electric trucks. The vehicle owner purchased the vehicle from General Vehicle Company (GVC, a subsidiary of the General Electric Company) without a battery and the electricity was purchased from Hartford Electric through an exchangeable battery. The owner paid a variable per-mile charge and a monthly service fee to cover maintenance and storage of the truck. Both vehicles and batteries were modified to facilitate a fast battery exchange. The service was provided between 1910 and 1924 and during that period covered more than 6 million miles. Beginning in 1917 a similar successful service was operated in Chicago for owners of Milburn Wagon Company cars who also could buy the vehicle without the batteries." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehi...
protomyth 9y ago
I'm looking forward to an hybrid F-150. It would be nice to have the batteries under the bed so I don't have to buy the sand in the winter. Since the F-150 family is still the best selling vehicle in the US, its going to be very interesting when they make the move. A full electric is really going to have to some decent range when towing or have a quick charge time to be accepted.
- greglindahl 9y ago
  Half of these trucks aren't ever used for towing, so those buyers might not care about towing range.
  - protomyth 9y ago
    Given the effort and marketing Ford is putting into the diesel F-150 with the better towing capacity, I'm a bit skeptical. Plus, the recreational uses for normal folks requires towing to parks.
    - greglindahl 9y ago
      I think there's plenty of evidence that people who never tow still respond positively to marketing about towing.

38 points by tankenmate 9y ago

Electrifying current models, as the article says, is a bad idea. You loose many advantages of an electric car, such as more interior room. I’m surprised Toyota is so far behind.

tankenmate 9y ago
I suspect the reason that Ford are electrifying current models is because of two reasons, a) inventors dilemma and the sales teams / channels that don't want to undercut their current stock of models, and b) for an organisation as large as Ford the change will take years to plan. I'd look for ground up EVs from Ford after two more year model cycles (i.e. about 6 years time); even if they wanted to move quicker I suspect that organisationally they'd struggle. Toyota are still wedded to the hybrid models of cars, they are the world leaders there, by volume heads and shoulders the first, by technology first or very nearly so.
Shivetya 9y ago
the technology is far from mature and world wide it would be even a bigger leap to electrify cars where grids are not reliable nor roads. when the sales are such a paltry number of total automobile sales its kind of hard to be behind. batteries and charging systems have a long way to go hence betting on hybrids combined with ev tech is the best bet short term. plus much work is being done in range extended EVs with the REX still up in the air. hauling a thousand pounds of batteries for the short ranges we see now is not a good solution
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

pricetag 9y ago

I really hope this pans out for them. Their stock has been flat for a while now, but they’ve also claimed they were heavily investing in electric vehicles for some time as well. It’ll be interesting to see who will take the lead in the next 5 years- startup automakers like Tesla or these larger auto titans who in theory should have been first to the game.

iagooar 9y ago

Too late. You can't wait 4 years in this fast-paced world. The best time to start was tomorrow. The second best is today.

bischofs 9y ago

I'll wait till I hear they have a model actually moving to production. The big oems across the board have been great at convincing people they are looking toward future tech while only releasing new combustion pickup truck and SUV models. They want the excitement for the investors and public that electrification brings but they also want to sell super simple 50 year old V8 motors in body-on-frame trucks, something has to give. The 2018 auto show is a great example, the big three refreshed all of their pickup models without any news on production or prototype ev's. The "investments" dont mean much if they are minuscule compared to combustion development. Granted its what people are buying right now but they are not really putting any compelling alternatives out in the market.

vvanders 9y ago
I wouldn't got that far on the truck front, in fact Ford just announced a V6 Turbo Diesel half-ton that should get 30MPG(the Dodge equivalent EcoDiesel already sees 28-30mpg in real-world scenarios). You're not going to see a truck that will fill that role as pure EV for a long while(and I say that as a Model S owner). Agreed on the announce-but-not-build front. VW did the same but seems like GM is the only one following through.
- bischofs 9y ago
  I see your point with electric pickup trucks, they will probably be the last to convert. Also I would point out that 3.0 ford engine you are referring to has been around since 2009 as the lion engine in various international markets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17 It probably has a different calibration for the US market to meet stricter emissions but that's about it.
  - vvanders 9y ago
    Oh yeah, totally. The EcoDeisel is the same case(Fiat engine from Europe). I'm just happy to see more efficient engines making it into the US. The fact that you can have a vehicle that will tow 8k GW but get 30mpg unloaded is fantastic. The X can tow 6k GW but range really tanks so it's okay for short hops but usually when you're towing you're going to be driving > 200mi.

jonwachob91 9y ago

> 40 hybrid and fully electric I suspect the bulk of the 40 will be hybrids, not prius type hybrids, but 918/P1/LaFerrari/i8 type hybrids. They are more fun to drive than 100% gas cars, and are more green than traditional hybrid vehicles.

mulmen 9y ago
What's the difference between a "Prius type hybrid" and a "918 type hybrid"?
- jonwachob91 9y ago
  A Prius does 0-60 in 10.5 seconds [1], a 918 does 0-60 in 2.2 seconds [2]. [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/prius https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/prius [2] https://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-2015-porsche-918-spyder-is-the-quickest-road-car-in-the-world-feature-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-2 https://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-2015-porsche-918-s...

derekp7 9y ago

Here's what I'd like to see. Either a plugin hybrid version of the Ford Fusion that gets at least 50 - 100 miles in EV mode (instead of 21), or something like a Tesla with a smaller (50 - 75 mile) battery powering the front wheels, with a 50-HP ICE powering the rear wheels. Something like this could still give you more than 95% EV-only, yet can still be your main car as you have the ICE as a range extender. And by trading battery for the gas engine, you end up with about the same weight/cost as a 350-mile range EV only car, but never have range anxiety.

axau 9y ago
What’s wrong with a Chevy Volt? (~50 battery only, 400+ total)
- derekp7 9y ago
  That is one of the cars that fits my criteria, along with one of the models that BMW has out (i3, is it?). The problem I have is the styling, they are styled to look different than a regular sedan (also I didn't really care for the ride, the Volt felt like driving a lower end model). The thing I like about the Fusion is that it is a regular car model, that has hybrid and plugin as options (kind of like picking different sized ICE engines). The thing that I really like about the Fusion Hybrid is that it really feels nice to drive -- smooth, kind of like a magic carpet (I'd imagine that a Tesla feels similar). Ideally, I'd like to see this for nearly all manufacture models -- electrification added to existing lines, instead of whole new designs.
  - DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
    The conspiracy-minded part of me thinks the GM/BMW electric cars are styled so differently to make them unappealing to “normal” (non-early adopters) to either deliberately sabotage the project or at least to avoid making the cars too popular. They really seem bent on squeezing the most from their century-old investment in ICE.
serpix 9y ago
Chevrolet Volt since 2009 is like this.

gpsx 9y ago

To make electric cars really mainstream, I think it would help to make some standard, easily removable battery modules that different manufacturers use. Then they sell the electyric car without battery and you lease the battery from providers something like a gas stations. It's not a new idea. I think it is just a matter of waiting for the market to be ready. But its kind of a chicken and egg problem.

elsonrodriguez 9y ago
I don't think introducing another recurring payment is the best thing for society. The market will be ready for battery leases when the average person can't afford their own battery outright.
- gpsx 9y ago
  Jsut to be clear, the idea was that you would go to the gas station and trade in an empty battery for a full one. In this case it is better for the people to not own the battery since they will be getting different ones all the time. Of course it would also make sense to allow people to keep the battery and recharge it themselves, in which case they would be paying for holding the battery.
  - craftyguy 9y ago
    I wholeheartedly agree, and believe that this model is the only way to make electric vehicles mainstream. Battery performance/range can only be improved so much with the current technology (and future battery tech. is still a looong ways off), and not everyone is willing to wait tens of minutes to charge their vehicles (e.g. when on long-distance trips.)
e12e 9y ago
> It's not a new idea. Indeed... "In order to overcome the limited operating range of electric vehicles, and the lack of recharging infrastructure, an exchangeable battery service was first proposed as early as 1896. The concept was first put into practice by Hartford Electric Light Company through the GeVeCo battery service and initially available for electric trucks. The vehicle owner purchased the vehicle from General Vehicle Company (GVC, a subsidiary of the General Electric Company) without a battery and the electricity was purchased from Hartford Electric through an exchangeable battery. The owner paid a variable per-mile charge and a monthly service fee to cover maintenance and storage of the truck. Both vehicles and batteries were modified to facilitate a fast battery exchange. The service was provided between 1910 and 1924 and during that period covered more than 6 million miles. Beginning in 1917 a similar successful service was operated in Chicago for owners of Milburn Wagon Company cars who also could buy the vehicle without the batteries." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehi...

protomyth 9y ago

I'm looking forward to an hybrid F-150. It would be nice to have the batteries under the bed so I don't have to buy the sand in the winter. Since the F-150 family is still the best selling vehicle in the US, its going to be very interesting when they make the move. A full electric is really going to have to some decent range when towing or have a quick charge time to be accepted.

greglindahl 9y ago
Half of these trucks aren't ever used for towing, so those buyers might not care about towing range.
- protomyth 9y ago
  Given the effort and marketing Ford is putting into the diesel F-150 with the better towing capacity, I'm a bit skeptical. Plus, the recreational uses for normal folks requires towing to parks.
  - greglindahl 9y ago
    I think there's plenty of evidence that people who never tow still respond positively to marketing about towing.