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I dunno, I suppose one wouldn't be surprised if a gold conference didn't accept gold payments. That is, in its current form, Bitcoin is _terrible_ for general

I dunno, I suppose one wouldn't be surprised if a gold conference didn't accept gold payments. That is, in its current form, Bitcoin is _terrible_ for general transactions. However, given its tremendous market capitalization, it may yet turn out to be a viable way to store value.

mamon 9y ago
>> it may yet turn out to be a viable way to store value Really? I think is just kind of post-factum rationalization, something that helps Bitcoin fans deal with their trauma and disillusionment after Bitcoin has failed.
- jhwang5 9y ago
  There's deep parallels between Crypto fans and scientologists.
  - spookthesunset 9y ago
    Go to any penny stock forum on finance.yahoo.com and the parallels are even deeper. Bitcoin, and the entire crypto-space are basically souped up penny stocks for the 21st century.
    - matthewbauer 9y ago
      At least with penny stocks you own a real company, though.
- Jotra7 9y ago
  Failed? I'm laughing all the way to the bank. I've heard naysayers like you since 2012. Sour fucking grapes, mate.
- natalyarostova 9y ago
  As insufferable as the bitcoin True Believers are, so too are those who claim it is trivially true it is a worthless scam currency. If scientific inference on the world were easy, we wouldn't be so awful at predicting the future, and we wouldn't rely on randomized experiments (or observational causal inference) to uncover most truths we have uncovered as a species. The technology and use of bitcoin as a store of value is an open experimental question. The experiment is currently in progress. To believe you can infer the truth so clearly, either for or against, is the natural naïveté of the uncalibrated human mind. Not to claim no one can ever know the future, or that some people aren't talented at prediction. All the same, there are particularly bright people who can't come to an agreement on the future state of bitcoin and was it will offer. Why is that? Is one set simply wrong, so clearly?
GBiT 9y ago
I don't know what you think about Bitcoin as a store of value, but if you want to liquidate quickly your "store of value", with bitcoin it can be impossible on the peak. It should have another use cases to be a store of value.
- robocat 9y ago
  Most investments, even cash, have some liquidity problems. Regardless, if you believe in investment diversity then transferring 0.1%‡ of your US stock holdings to bitcoin may make sense (depending upon transfer costs, liquidity requirements, and what exposure you think the US stock market has to bitcoin). ‡ Assuming US stock market capitalization is $250 trillion, and bitcoin capitalization is $250 billion.
mschuster91 9y ago
Given the massive value drop (>18% in the last month) and the crazy value growth (>1000% in the last year, figures according to https://www.finanzen.net/devisen/bitcoin-euro/chart https://www.finanzen.net/devisen/bitcoin-euro/chart), I'm not sure BTC is a viable way to store value... but one thing I'm certain is that BTC has lost its appeal as payment instrument due to ridiculous fees (20$ / tx, according to https://estimatefee.com/ https://estimatefee.com/) and the waiting times. The next 6-12 months imho will be decisive for BTC's future. [disclosure: holding ~500€ in BTC]
- kbar13 9y ago
  why do you feel the need to disclose that
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    Because holding a non-laughable amount of any asset can (and does) influence my opinion, both on the present and the future. To disclose potential influences is (or at least should be) standard practice.
- akerro 9y ago
  > I'm not sure BTC is a viable way to store value... BTC (and any deflationary CC) is still a better long term value holder than EUR or USD
  - Retric 9y ago
    If and only if it remains deflationary, someone could completely destroy Bitcoin by maintaining a 51% attack. I doubt China is going to go from nan to an attack, but confiscate all miners in China and they could easily do so. So, if Bitcoin could easily be worth nothing in 10 years, it's a poor Store of value.
    - akerro 9y ago
      >destroy Bitcoin by maintaining a 51% attack The 51% is a better chance attack, you can still try to perform it with 10% and succeed and you can try with 60% and fail. >Bitcoin could easily be worth nothing in 10 years, it's a poor Store of value. Gold is more and more used in electronics, less and less in jewellery, if we move to graphene-based computers gold will not have much place there and its value in USD will probably drop. One nuke on Hawaii or California will cause huge drop in value of USD compared to other currencies.
vinchuco 9y ago
> if a gold conference didn't accept gold payments. no, but a bitcoin-is-the-future-of-currency conference, might surprise me
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
spookthesunset 9y ago
> However, given its tremendous market capitalization, it may yet turn out to be a viable way to store value. The circular logic of bitcoin shysters never ceases to amaze. I have created a new coin called "sand coin". Each coin is a grain of sand from my backyard Yesterday my friend bought one grain of sand from me for $1. Therefore, given the fact that there is billions of sand grains in my backyard, their market cap is giant. Given its tremendous market cap, Sandcoin is a great store of value.
- notadoc 9y ago
  Wow a sand-grain backed crypto? Sand on blockchain? Sandcoin is easily worth $100,000 per coin! It's the future of sand!
- johndevor 9y ago
  You're using derogatory terms to make an argument which is not an argument. Secondly, you could make the same argument about gold.
  - skellera 9y ago
    This always gets brought up but gold is used for much more. It’s in electronics, people value it as jewelry, etc. I can go to a coin shop today and exchange my gold for a much smaller fee than Bitcoin. Gold has historically shown its ability to store value. If the fees come back down, all of the Bitcoin people will start saying they never called it a store of value. People just have to justify why they’re making irrational decisions.
    - aianus 9y ago
      Which coin shop is this with $0.01 spread and 0/0.20% maker/taker fees? I would like to go there.
    - johndevor 9y ago
      The vast majority of gold's value is simply a store of value, not electronics or jewelry.
sandworm101 9y ago
When did BC become a place to store value? It was meant to facilitate unblockable transactions. It was to replace visa, not gold.
- brokensegue 9y ago
  they gave up on that when they realized that it could never scale even close to visa's transaction volume.
akhatri_aus 9y ago
> I suppose one wouldn't be surprised if a gold conference didn't accept gold payments. What a false equivalence. That is specifically why processors like Bitpay exist, because Bitcoin _is_ meant for these type of transactions. You can't really shove gold down the computer screen.
EpicEng 9y ago
>I dunno, I suppose one wouldn't be surprised if a gold conference didn't accept gold payments. except no one is using gold as a currency, and all of the crypto pushers are touting it as the currency of the future, yet they an't even use it at their own conference. No one is pushing gold as a currency, so I don't understand the analogy. These things are just not usable as currency yet, not even close. I have a hard time believing they ever will be even if they get past the technical issues.
Chyzwar 9y ago
Store value is real estate, equity, government bonds not overhyped cryptocurrency that can disappear tomorrow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_of_value https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_of_value
Chyzwar 9y ago
Value store can be real estate, equity, government bonds not overhyped cryptocurrency that can disappear tomorrow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_of_value https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_of_value
- adamnemecek 9y ago
  It can but most likely won’t.
  - Chyzwar 9y ago
    Why do you think that bitcoins cant disappear tomorrow? Does it have government as a guarantee of value? (currency, bonds)? Does it have intrinsic underlying value (commodity, real estate)? Does it have ownership rights (equity)? If tomorrow crypto market crash, you will not be able to sell your bitcoins for 1$.
    - adamnemecek 9y ago
      His discussion has been had a billion times. The fact that you are asking the same questions means that you weren’t convinced by the answers, so the odds of my answers actually convincing you are very slim.
Bitcoin_McPonzi 9y ago
I've been to gold conferences in Australia and I paid my admission with a gold coin.
- oliyoung 9y ago
  cough those are 90% copper, didn't have any gold in them
- IncRnd 9y ago
  Are you sure it was a gold coin and not a golden coin?

mamon 9y ago

>> it may yet turn out to be a viable way to store value Really? I think is just kind of post-factum rationalization, something that helps Bitcoin fans deal with their trauma and disillusionment after Bitcoin has failed.

jhwang5 9y ago
There's deep parallels between Crypto fans and scientologists.
- spookthesunset 9y ago
  Go to any penny stock forum on finance.yahoo.com and the parallels are even deeper. Bitcoin, and the entire crypto-space are basically souped up penny stocks for the 21st century.
  - matthewbauer 9y ago
    At least with penny stocks you own a real company, though.
Jotra7 9y ago
Failed? I'm laughing all the way to the bank. I've heard naysayers like you since 2012. Sour fucking grapes, mate.
natalyarostova 9y ago
As insufferable as the bitcoin True Believers are, so too are those who claim it is trivially true it is a worthless scam currency. If scientific inference on the world were easy, we wouldn't be so awful at predicting the future, and we wouldn't rely on randomized experiments (or observational causal inference) to uncover most truths we have uncovered as a species. The technology and use of bitcoin as a store of value is an open experimental question. The experiment is currently in progress. To believe you can infer the truth so clearly, either for or against, is the natural naïveté of the uncalibrated human mind. Not to claim no one can ever know the future, or that some people aren't talented at prediction. All the same, there are particularly bright people who can't come to an agreement on the future state of bitcoin and was it will offer. Why is that? Is one set simply wrong, so clearly?

GBiT 9y ago

I don't know what you think about Bitcoin as a store of value, but if you want to liquidate quickly your "store of value", with bitcoin it can be impossible on the peak. It should have another use cases to be a store of value.

robocat 9y ago
Most investments, even cash, have some liquidity problems. Regardless, if you believe in investment diversity then transferring 0.1%‡ of your US stock holdings to bitcoin may make sense (depending upon transfer costs, liquidity requirements, and what exposure you think the US stock market has to bitcoin). ‡ Assuming US stock market capitalization is $250 trillion, and bitcoin capitalization is $250 billion.

mschuster91 9y ago

Given the massive value drop (>18% in the last month) and the crazy value growth (>1000% in the last year, figures according to https://www.finanzen.net/devisen/bitcoin-euro/chart https://www.finanzen.net/devisen/bitcoin-euro/chart), I'm not sure BTC is a viable way to store value... but one thing I'm certain is that BTC has lost its appeal as payment instrument due to ridiculous fees (20$ / tx, according to https://estimatefee.com/ https://estimatefee.com/) and the waiting times. The next 6-12 months imho will be decisive for BTC's future. [disclosure: holding ~500€ in BTC]

kbar13 9y ago
why do you feel the need to disclose that
- mschuster91 9y ago
  Because holding a non-laughable amount of any asset can (and does) influence my opinion, both on the present and the future. To disclose potential influences is (or at least should be) standard practice.
akerro 9y ago
> I'm not sure BTC is a viable way to store value... BTC (and any deflationary CC) is still a better long term value holder than EUR or USD
- Retric 9y ago
  If and only if it remains deflationary, someone could completely destroy Bitcoin by maintaining a 51% attack. I doubt China is going to go from nan to an attack, but confiscate all miners in China and they could easily do so. So, if Bitcoin could easily be worth nothing in 10 years, it's a poor Store of value.
  - akerro 9y ago
    >destroy Bitcoin by maintaining a 51% attack The 51% is a better chance attack, you can still try to perform it with 10% and succeed and you can try with 60% and fail. >Bitcoin could easily be worth nothing in 10 years, it's a poor Store of value. Gold is more and more used in electronics, less and less in jewellery, if we move to graphene-based computers gold will not have much place there and its value in USD will probably drop. One nuke on Hawaii or California will cause huge drop in value of USD compared to other currencies.

vinchuco 9y ago

> if a gold conference didn't accept gold payments. no, but a bitcoin-is-the-future-of-currency conference, might surprise me

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

spookthesunset 9y ago

> However, given its tremendous market capitalization, it may yet turn out to be a viable way to store value. The circular logic of bitcoin shysters never ceases to amaze. I have created a new coin called "sand coin". Each coin is a grain of sand from my backyard Yesterday my friend bought one grain of sand from me for $1. Therefore, given the fact that there is billions of sand grains in my backyard, their market cap is giant. Given its tremendous market cap, Sandcoin is a great store of value.

notadoc 9y ago
Wow a sand-grain backed crypto? Sand on blockchain? Sandcoin is easily worth $100,000 per coin! It's the future of sand!
johndevor 9y ago
You're using derogatory terms to make an argument which is not an argument. Secondly, you could make the same argument about gold.
- skellera 9y ago
  This always gets brought up but gold is used for much more. It’s in electronics, people value it as jewelry, etc. I can go to a coin shop today and exchange my gold for a much smaller fee than Bitcoin. Gold has historically shown its ability to store value. If the fees come back down, all of the Bitcoin people will start saying they never called it a store of value. People just have to justify why they’re making irrational decisions.
  - aianus 9y ago
    Which coin shop is this with $0.01 spread and 0/0.20% maker/taker fees? I would like to go there.
  - johndevor 9y ago
    The vast majority of gold's value is simply a store of value, not electronics or jewelry.

sandworm101 9y ago

When did BC become a place to store value? It was meant to facilitate unblockable transactions. It was to replace visa, not gold.

brokensegue 9y ago
they gave up on that when they realized that it could never scale even close to visa's transaction volume.

akhatri_aus 9y ago

> I suppose one wouldn't be surprised if a gold conference didn't accept gold payments. What a false equivalence. That is specifically why processors like Bitpay exist, because Bitcoin _is_ meant for these type of transactions. You can't really shove gold down the computer screen.

EpicEng 9y ago

>I dunno, I suppose one wouldn't be surprised if a gold conference didn't accept gold payments. except no one is using gold as a currency, and all of the crypto pushers are touting it as the currency of the future, yet they an't even use it at their own conference. No one is pushing gold as a currency, so I don't understand the analogy. These things are just not usable as currency yet, not even close. I have a hard time believing they ever will be even if they get past the technical issues.

Chyzwar 9y ago

Store value is real estate, equity, government bonds not overhyped cryptocurrency that can disappear tomorrow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_of_value https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_of_value

Chyzwar 9y ago

Value store can be real estate, equity, government bonds not overhyped cryptocurrency that can disappear tomorrow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_of_value https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_of_value

adamnemecek 9y ago
It can but most likely won’t.
- Chyzwar 9y ago
  Why do you think that bitcoins cant disappear tomorrow? Does it have government as a guarantee of value? (currency, bonds)? Does it have intrinsic underlying value (commodity, real estate)? Does it have ownership rights (equity)? If tomorrow crypto market crash, you will not be able to sell your bitcoins for 1$.
  - adamnemecek 9y ago
    His discussion has been had a billion times. The fact that you are asking the same questions means that you weren’t convinced by the answers, so the odds of my answers actually convincing you are very slim.

Bitcoin_McPonzi 9y ago

I've been to gold conferences in Australia and I paid my admission with a gold coin.

oliyoung 9y ago
cough those are 90% copper, didn't have any gold in them
IncRnd 9y ago
Are you sure it was a gold coin and not a golden coin?