7 ms·

What about pedestrians? For me, a future in which vehicles have more control of our public spaces is worse than the present, no matter the efficiency of the arr

by w0de0 9y ago

What about pedestrians? For me, a future in which vehicles have more control of our public spaces is worse than the present, no matter the efficiency of the arrangement. Many American cities are notorious for being designed for the automobile, not the human. Let's not double down. More Ramblas!

ukulele 9y ago
Autonomous vehicles are far more deferential to pedestrians than human drivers. It's not even close.
- Pulcinella 9y ago
  Heh. I find it funny that fiction portrays machines wanting to destroy humanity. It may turn out that machines with super human reaction times, never get tired or frustrated, and have infinite patience end up being nicer people than actual people.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
It is kind of funny because pedestrian crossings already kind of work like this in China. The car will never ever stop for you, rather, it will adjust its speed and swerve slightly to avoid a collision (if expected, if unexpected, then its a totally different game). Likewise, the pedestrian is expected to move in a consistent direction and adjust their speed to avoid being in the way of a car. The result is that car traffic and pedestrian traffic can keep moving at the same time even when orthogonal. Of course, it often doesn't work, and it is only possible at all given the slower vehicle speeds of a congested road network. Also, the flow of pedestrians in China is rather more continuous than in America.
- zten 9y ago
  Oddly, this is a cyclist behavior that is very widely admonished as being pedestrian-hostile.
  - plandis 9y ago
    In most places in the US it is unlawful for cyclists in the road not to follow traffic law. It is pedestrian hostile in the sense that people don't expect it because it is unlawful.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    You mean in the USA. In a cyclist-friendly country like the Netherlands, it is considered completely normal even by pedestrians.
    - tinco 9y ago
      That it is normal doesn't mean it's not pedestrian hostile. I catch myself cycling over-aggressively. For example, everyone knows that pedestrians have right of way on a zebra-crossing. Good luck with that in The Netherlands. Cyclists will simply not give you right of way, they'll swerve around you, ignore you, and generally make you uncomfortable. The Netherlands is a cyclists country in much the same way as the U.S. is car country, pedestrians are second class.
      - YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 9y ago
        I've always thought the reason many cyclists treat red lights and stop signs mere warnings instead of rules is because it's annoying to have to speed up from standstill with your own power. IMO it's a flaw in human-powered vehicles, although some purists will certainly vehemently disagree such a thing can even exist.
        tinco 9y ago
        Well.. though I'll admit to cycling aggressively, I don't think I've ever ignored a traffic light unless there was literally no traffic around (and even then only when I was in a hurry), and I don't think many cyclists I know do ignore traffic lights very often. I definitely get not wanting to stop, and I'll try and optimize. For example in Amsterdam there's traffic lights with counters, and as a cyclist you can usually safely go when there's 5 seconds left, but I don't count that as ignoring the traffic light. Cutting a red light into slow traffic would be very rude.. I don't think that happens a lot here.
- rahimnathwani 9y ago
  "The car will never ever stop for you" This hasn't been my experience. At least twice in the last 7 years, a car has stopped when about to do a right-on-red, to allow me to cross. Sure, that's 0.01% of the time, but not never :) "The car will ... will adjust its speed and swerve slightly to avoid a collision" This also does not match my experience. Whether or not I make eye contact with a driver, it's very rare that they make enough of an adjustment to their speed or direction to avoid a collision. I always have to stop, or adjust my speed+/direction.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    As for (a), it was probably a foreigner. As for (b), it only counts if traffic is going slow enough, and it should be part of a human wave. Otherwise, it is a bit like a game of frogger.
    - rahimnathwani 9y ago
      Maybe. I was so stunned I didn't think to ask where they were from. Yes, like a game of frogger.
perennate 9y ago
Cyclists are also not considered. Maybe the intersection looks like this once you add pedestrians and cyclists: https://vimeo.com/106226560 https://vimeo.com/106226560 Edit: also worth checking the earlier discussion from a couple years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11336009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11336009
- ilyagr 9y ago
  That's an awesome video, thanks!

by w0de0 9y ago

ukulele 9y ago

Autonomous vehicles are far more deferential to pedestrians than human drivers. It's not even close.

Pulcinella 9y ago
Heh. I find it funny that fiction portrays machines wanting to destroy humanity. It may turn out that machines with super human reaction times, never get tired or frustrated, and have infinite patience end up being nicer people than actual people.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

It is kind of funny because pedestrian crossings already kind of work like this in China. The car will never ever stop for you, rather, it will adjust its speed and swerve slightly to avoid a collision (if expected, if unexpected, then its a totally different game). Likewise, the pedestrian is expected to move in a consistent direction and adjust their speed to avoid being in the way of a car. The result is that car traffic and pedestrian traffic can keep moving at the same time even when orthogonal. Of course, it often doesn't work, and it is only possible at all given the slower vehicle speeds of a congested road network. Also, the flow of pedestrians in China is rather more continuous than in America.

zten 9y ago
Oddly, this is a cyclist behavior that is very widely admonished as being pedestrian-hostile.
- plandis 9y ago
  In most places in the US it is unlawful for cyclists in the road not to follow traffic law. It is pedestrian hostile in the sense that people don't expect it because it is unlawful.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  You mean in the USA. In a cyclist-friendly country like the Netherlands, it is considered completely normal even by pedestrians.
  - tinco 9y ago
    That it is normal doesn't mean it's not pedestrian hostile. I catch myself cycling over-aggressively. For example, everyone knows that pedestrians have right of way on a zebra-crossing. Good luck with that in The Netherlands. Cyclists will simply not give you right of way, they'll swerve around you, ignore you, and generally make you uncomfortable. The Netherlands is a cyclists country in much the same way as the U.S. is car country, pedestrians are second class.
    - YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 9y ago
      I've always thought the reason many cyclists treat red lights and stop signs mere warnings instead of rules is because it's annoying to have to speed up from standstill with your own power. IMO it's a flaw in human-powered vehicles, although some purists will certainly vehemently disagree such a thing can even exist.
      - tinco 9y ago
        Well.. though I'll admit to cycling aggressively, I don't think I've ever ignored a traffic light unless there was literally no traffic around (and even then only when I was in a hurry), and I don't think many cyclists I know do ignore traffic lights very often. I definitely get not wanting to stop, and I'll try and optimize. For example in Amsterdam there's traffic lights with counters, and as a cyclist you can usually safely go when there's 5 seconds left, but I don't count that as ignoring the traffic light. Cutting a red light into slow traffic would be very rude.. I don't think that happens a lot here.
rahimnathwani 9y ago
"The car will never ever stop for you" This hasn't been my experience. At least twice in the last 7 years, a car has stopped when about to do a right-on-red, to allow me to cross. Sure, that's 0.01% of the time, but not never :) "The car will ... will adjust its speed and swerve slightly to avoid a collision" This also does not match my experience. Whether or not I make eye contact with a driver, it's very rare that they make enough of an adjustment to their speed or direction to avoid a collision. I always have to stop, or adjust my speed+/direction.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  As for (a), it was probably a foreigner. As for (b), it only counts if traffic is going slow enough, and it should be part of a human wave. Otherwise, it is a bit like a game of frogger.
  - rahimnathwani 9y ago
    Maybe. I was so stunned I didn't think to ask where they were from. Yes, like a game of frogger.

perennate 9y ago

Cyclists are also not considered. Maybe the intersection looks like this once you add pedestrians and cyclists: https://vimeo.com/106226560 https://vimeo.com/106226560 Edit: also worth checking the earlier discussion from a couple years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11336009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11336009

ilyagr 9y ago
That's an awesome video, thanks!