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>> So? Now, there is a law, and so what was legal before is not anymore. That's my whole point, it was legal before and they weren't "making money illegally" (

>> So? Now, there is a law, and so what was legal before is not anymore. That's my whole point, it was legal before and they weren't "making money illegally" (as the parent claimed), hence my the need for new laws. >> Where you are acting from does not have any influence on legality. If Germany has a law that makes what someone does in the US illegal, then it's illegal. It's not illegal in the US, from which they are operating. That's what matters. Close to 100% of porn sites are probably doing things illegally from a German legislative point of view. They're making money off of horny Germany nonetheless. So, the idea that our laws can "teach" them is ludicrous. >> But it seems like Facebook is of the opinion that they have enough Business in Germany that it's worth for them to comply with the laws to be able to keep that business. Yes, they chose that tradeoff over leaving the market, because at the end of the day they don't give a fuck. They did the same for China. They are probably working on AI-based deletion bots as we speak. What a great success, eh? >> Well, but most advertisers that want to advertise to a German audience are from Germany. If you want to be paid by advertisers from Germany, you better follow German laws, or Germany will seize the funds your German advertisers are paying you to pay fines or other debts that you owe in Germany. Oh really? When has that ever happened? If I turn off my adblock, most of what I get is international brands (YMMV), so even if all the German advertisers were gone, it would be a drop in a bucket. Maybe big enough of a drop for the company to care, maybe not, but the point remains that it is that the users stand to lose more here than any of the companies involved.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
> That's my whole point, it was legal before and they weren't "making money illegally" (as the parent claimed), hence my the need for new laws. Yeah, once upon a time, murder was legal, and people weren't "murdering illegally", so why the need for a law against murder? > It's not illegal in the US, from which they are operating. That's what matters. Well, if you aren't interested in reality, why are we even discussing? > Close to 100% of porn sites are probably doing things illegally from a German legislative point of view. They're making money off of horny Germany nonetheless. http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/BJNR001270871.html#BJNR001270871BJNG000302307 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/BJNR001270871.html#BJ... German law itself limits its geographic applicability, and therefore that limit can be changed just as any other rules in the law.
- hardwires 9y ago
  >> Yeah, once upon a time, murder was legal, and people weren't "murdering illegally", so why the need for a law against murder? The POINT is that the parent claimed Facebook is acting illegally, my point is they were not!. There's no argument against the law itself to be found within that, you can stop trying. >> Well, if you aren't interested in reality, why are we even discussing? What are you talking about? I am discussing reality. You must be missing the point again, which is the following: Even if something is illegal in Germany, you can not enforce German law on every company that stands to profit from a German audience. Therefore, if you want to use German law to "teach" those companies, you're out of luck. As a German myself, I am very glad about this, because (for example) I don't have to wait until 10PM and verify my identity to consume government-sanctioned pornography, as German law would require. You don't see a lot of people asking for respect and enforcement of those laws, yet as soon as it comes to "hate speech" the nanny-state-conformists come out of the woodwork... >> German law itself limits its geographic applicability, and therefore that limit can be changed just as any other rules in the law. The porn law applies in the same way that the hate speech laws apply, insofar as they're dealing with German "customers".
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
    > The POINT is that the parent claimed Facebook is acting illegally, my point is they were not! Except they weren't? Not respecting the law is not the same as acting illegally. If a Chinese manufacturer exports toxic food to Germany, is that illegal (according to German law)? For all I know, it's not. Does that mean that they are respecting German food safety regulations? No. Would it still be a problem if Chinese manufacturers exported toxic food to Germany? Yes. Does the fact that exporting toxic food to Germany is not illegal mean that it's not legitimate for Germany to try and find ways to prevent export of toxic food to Germany using its legal system? > Even if something is illegal in Germany, you can not enforce German law on every company that stands to profit from a German audience. Well, true? How is that relevant to Facebook, say? As far as I know, Facebook is not every company? > Therefore, if you want to use German law to "teach" those companies, you're out of luck. So, you are saying the German legislative effort known as NetzDG is not having any effect on how Facebook behaves? > As a German myself, I am very glad about this, because (for example) I don't have to wait until 10PM and verify my identity to consume government-sanctioned pornography, as German law would require. So, because you disagree with a specific law, you think the German state should not enforce any laws on foreign corporations? Because you think that German limits on porn are idiotic, you think an American bank defrauding German customers should not be held accountable, say? > You don't see a lot of people asking for respect and enforcement of those laws, yet as soon as it comes to "hate speech" the nanny-state-conformists come out of the woodwork... Which has what to do with whether laws should apply to foreign companies exactly? Are you seeing a lot of people asking for enforcement of porn laws against German companies? > The porn law applies in the same way that the hate speech laws apply, insofar as they're dealing with German "customers". I'm not sure it does, but in any case: Is it really a good state of affairs that it's enforced selectively-ish? It's not exactly protecting the constitutional rights of porn stars and porn producers in Germany, is it? Sure, overall, it might be better that at least foreign porn is accessible unrestricted than none at all, but is that an argument for selective enforcement, or not rather against restrictions of porn?
anigbrowl 9y ago
It's not illegal in the US, from which they are operating. That's what matters. Yes, they chose that tradeoff over leaving the market They don't want to leave the market because the market is where the revenue stream originates. Markets are local; the location of the HQ is irrelevant.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago

> That's my whole point, it was legal before and they weren't "making money illegally" (as the parent claimed), hence my the need for new laws. Yeah, once upon a time, murder was legal, and people weren't "murdering illegally", so why the need for a law against murder? > It's not illegal in the US, from which they are operating. That's what matters. Well, if you aren't interested in reality, why are we even discussing? > Close to 100% of porn sites are probably doing things illegally from a German legislative point of view. They're making money off of horny Germany nonetheless. http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/BJNR001270871.html#BJNR001270871BJNG000302307 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/BJNR001270871.html#BJ... German law itself limits its geographic applicability, and therefore that limit can be changed just as any other rules in the law.

hardwires 9y ago
>> Yeah, once upon a time, murder was legal, and people weren't "murdering illegally", so why the need for a law against murder? The POINT is that the parent claimed Facebook is acting illegally, my point is they were not!. There's no argument against the law itself to be found within that, you can stop trying. >> Well, if you aren't interested in reality, why are we even discussing? What are you talking about? I am discussing reality. You must be missing the point again, which is the following: Even if something is illegal in Germany, you can not enforce German law on every company that stands to profit from a German audience. Therefore, if you want to use German law to "teach" those companies, you're out of luck. As a German myself, I am very glad about this, because (for example) I don't have to wait until 10PM and verify my identity to consume government-sanctioned pornography, as German law would require. You don't see a lot of people asking for respect and enforcement of those laws, yet as soon as it comes to "hate speech" the nanny-state-conformists come out of the woodwork... >> German law itself limits its geographic applicability, and therefore that limit can be changed just as any other rules in the law. The porn law applies in the same way that the hate speech laws apply, insofar as they're dealing with German "customers".
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
  > The POINT is that the parent claimed Facebook is acting illegally, my point is they were not! Except they weren't? Not respecting the law is not the same as acting illegally. If a Chinese manufacturer exports toxic food to Germany, is that illegal (according to German law)? For all I know, it's not. Does that mean that they are respecting German food safety regulations? No. Would it still be a problem if Chinese manufacturers exported toxic food to Germany? Yes. Does the fact that exporting toxic food to Germany is not illegal mean that it's not legitimate for Germany to try and find ways to prevent export of toxic food to Germany using its legal system? > Even if something is illegal in Germany, you can not enforce German law on every company that stands to profit from a German audience. Well, true? How is that relevant to Facebook, say? As far as I know, Facebook is not every company? > Therefore, if you want to use German law to "teach" those companies, you're out of luck. So, you are saying the German legislative effort known as NetzDG is not having any effect on how Facebook behaves? > As a German myself, I am very glad about this, because (for example) I don't have to wait until 10PM and verify my identity to consume government-sanctioned pornography, as German law would require. So, because you disagree with a specific law, you think the German state should not enforce any laws on foreign corporations? Because you think that German limits on porn are idiotic, you think an American bank defrauding German customers should not be held accountable, say? > You don't see a lot of people asking for respect and enforcement of those laws, yet as soon as it comes to "hate speech" the nanny-state-conformists come out of the woodwork... Which has what to do with whether laws should apply to foreign companies exactly? Are you seeing a lot of people asking for enforcement of porn laws against German companies? > The porn law applies in the same way that the hate speech laws apply, insofar as they're dealing with German "customers". I'm not sure it does, but in any case: Is it really a good state of affairs that it's enforced selectively-ish? It's not exactly protecting the constitutional rights of porn stars and porn producers in Germany, is it? Sure, overall, it might be better that at least foreign porn is accessible unrestricted than none at all, but is that an argument for selective enforcement, or not rather against restrictions of porn?

anigbrowl 9y ago

It's not illegal in the US, from which they are operating. That's what matters. Yes, they chose that tradeoff over leaving the market They don't want to leave the market because the market is where the revenue stream originates. Markets are local; the location of the HQ is irrelevant.