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>> We really need to teach Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AirBNB and all those companies some manners and respect for our society. As a German, let me tell you that

>> We really need to teach Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AirBNB and all those companies some manners and respect for our society. As a German, let me tell you that this sounds absolutely ridiculous, arrogant and hubristic. You want your German Extrawurst. We're not "one society", not everyone agrees with the tons of laws and regulations we have (mostly on account of special pleading and lobbyism). German users came to Facebook and Twitter first, not the other way around. These are not German companies, they don't need to operate out of Germany, so why should they have to follow our every law? If anything, you'd be "teaching" them not to bother with Germany, because it's too much of a pain in the ass.

Tomte 9y ago
I would have no problem with them deciding it‘s not worth the trouble and banning German users. I have a problem with how they want to make money here, but illegally. And yes, I want rules to be decided democratically. Not by „what does hardwires think about it?“.
- hardwires 9y ago
  >> I would have no problem with them deciding it‘s not worth the trouble and banning German users. Why should they ban them? They should allow access from all countries. Would you argue that Twitter and Facebook should help enforce all the customs of countries like Iran or North Korea by banning its users? Just get out of the way! >> I have a problem with how they want to make money here, but illegally. They aren't making money illegally here. They never have. If they did, law enforcement could stop them and there wouldn't have been a need for this new law. They can still make money off a German audience without any business presence in Germany. Legally, from the US. Advertisers don't all discriminate. There's nothing you (or the German government) can do about that, except maybe for censoring the "German version" of the internet. If that's what you want, to the detriment of all German internet users, then please say so. >> And yes, I want rules to be decided democratically. Not by „what does hardwires think about it?“. These rules are not decided democratically in Germany, so I don't understand what that has to do with anything.
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
    > If they did, law enforcement could stop them and there wouldn't have been a need for this new law. So? Now, there is a law, and so what was legal before is not anymore. That is the point of creating new laws. > They can still make money off a German audience without any business presence in Germany. Legally, from the US. Where you are acting from does not have any influence on legality. If Germany has a law that makes what someone does in the US illegal, then it's illegal. Acting from the US only limits enforcability. If Facebook has no presence or business in Germany, Germany cannot do anything to enforce that law against Facebook. But it seems like Facebook is of the opinion that they have enough Business in Germany that it's worth for them to comply with the laws to be able to keep that business. > Advertisers don't all discriminate. Well, but most advertisers that want to advertise to a German audience are from Germany. If you want to be paid by advertisers from Germany, you better follow German laws, or Germany will seize the funds your German advertisers are paying you to pay fines or other debts that you owe in Germany.
    - hardwires 9y ago
      >> So? Now, there is a law, and so what was legal before is not anymore. That's my whole point, it was legal before and they weren't "making money illegally" (as the parent claimed), hence my the need for new laws. >> Where you are acting from does not have any influence on legality. If Germany has a law that makes what someone does in the US illegal, then it's illegal. It's not illegal in the US, from which they are operating. That's what matters. Close to 100% of porn sites are probably doing things illegally from a German legislative point of view. They're making money off of horny Germany nonetheless. So, the idea that our laws can "teach" them is ludicrous. >> But it seems like Facebook is of the opinion that they have enough Business in Germany that it's worth for them to comply with the laws to be able to keep that business. Yes, they chose that tradeoff over leaving the market, because at the end of the day they don't give a fuck. They did the same for China. They are probably working on AI-based deletion bots as we speak. What a great success, eh? >> Well, but most advertisers that want to advertise to a German audience are from Germany. If you want to be paid by advertisers from Germany, you better follow German laws, or Germany will seize the funds your German advertisers are paying you to pay fines or other debts that you owe in Germany. Oh really? When has that ever happened? If I turn off my adblock, most of what I get is international brands (YMMV), so even if all the German advertisers were gone, it would be a drop in a bucket. Maybe big enough of a drop for the company to care, maybe not, but the point remains that it is that the users stand to lose more here than any of the companies involved.
germanier 9y ago
I don't like all our laws either (this included) but I accept that as a society we must respect and enforce the laws we democratically choose to enact. Rule of law is a fundamental pillar of society and if that is stopped getting accepted by society at large we are in for a bad time. I don't make the laws and Facebook doesn't either. If Facebook and co. don't want to operate in Germany, they are free to withdraw from that market. They clearly target Germany and there is a lot of money to be made here. If they want that - fine but please respect that we play by our rules here.
- hardwires 9y ago
  >> I don't like all our laws either (this included) but I accept that as a society we must respect and enforce the laws we democratically choose to enact. No, we don't. Who taught you this nonsense? In fact, it is our duty as citizens to fight bad laws, no matter if they were "democratically chosen" or not. In Germany, we don't choose laws democratically, either. We elect representatives who may or may not do a good job at legislation, and it's our duty to scrutinize that. Don't forget that Hitler was elected democratically and pretty much everything that happened from thereon was legal under German law.
  - germanier 9y ago
    > No, we don't. Who taught you this nonsense? Art. 20 II of our constitution. That's the philosophical foundation of how our state works. Every state action is derived from that principle. That's of course no nonsense but thankfully absolutely unchallenged by everybody who teaches you about our state. Not every state action is good, some are even objectively bad. Of course working against such is a civic duty. But wanting to enforce a law against corporations that interacts with and clearly influences people here is neither ridiculous, nor arrogant or hubristic. > Don't forget that Hitler was elected democratically and pretty much everything that happened from thereon was legal under German law. Well, apart from basically all the things that granted that period a special place in every history book hopefully forever. We integrated various safeguards into our constitution and laws to ensure that something like that never happens again. This law (no matter how bad) is a piece in that puzzle and should be viewed as such.
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
> You want your German Extrawurst. Now, that is an interesting interpretation of the rule of law if I have ever seen one! So, in your opinion, having to follow the laws of a country you visit or that you do business in is somehow illegitimate because it's an Extrawurst? Is it your expectation that the US will apply German law to you when you visit the US? > These are not German companies, they don't need to operate out of Germany, Well, true? > so why should they have to follow our every law? Because they do operate in Germany? > If anything, you'd be "teaching" them not to bother with Germany, because it's too much of a pain in the ass. So, we shouldn't apply laws because that could be teaching people to not bother with Germany? So I suppose you think we shouldn't apply laws at all, then? It's not like Germans couldn't end up learning that they should leave the country if they have to follow laws, is it?
- hardwires 9y ago
  >> Now, that is an interesting interpretation of the rule of law if I have ever seen one! That isn't an "interpretation of the rule of law", that's a response to the bold statement that "We really need to teach [...] all those companies some manners and respect for our society". Yes, we can introduce all sorts of stupid laws to make foreign companies do as we please or have them leave. No, we're not "teaching" them "manners and respect" for our society. We killed millions of people, not even a hundred years ago, but now we're the paragons of virtue? Give me a fucking break... >> Because they do operate in Germany? Clearly whatever they did was legal in however way they operate "in Germany", or there would have been a German court case.
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
    > Clearly whatever they did was legal in however way they operate "in Germany", or there would have been a German court case. Actually, what they did was not legal. Not appearing in court when a judge orders you to is not legal. It just so happens that it's not enforcable when the person ordered to appear happens to be in a different country. In order to limit the negative effects of this illegal behaviour, now more of their behaviour has been made illegal in such a way that if they don't follow those rules, it can actually be enforced.

Tomte 9y ago

I would have no problem with them deciding it‘s not worth the trouble and banning German users. I have a problem with how they want to make money here, but illegally. And yes, I want rules to be decided democratically. Not by „what does hardwires think about it?“.

hardwires 9y ago
>> I would have no problem with them deciding it‘s not worth the trouble and banning German users. Why should they ban them? They should allow access from all countries. Would you argue that Twitter and Facebook should help enforce all the customs of countries like Iran or North Korea by banning its users? Just get out of the way! >> I have a problem with how they want to make money here, but illegally. They aren't making money illegally here. They never have. If they did, law enforcement could stop them and there wouldn't have been a need for this new law. They can still make money off a German audience without any business presence in Germany. Legally, from the US. Advertisers don't all discriminate. There's nothing you (or the German government) can do about that, except maybe for censoring the "German version" of the internet. If that's what you want, to the detriment of all German internet users, then please say so. >> And yes, I want rules to be decided democratically. Not by „what does hardwires think about it?“. These rules are not decided democratically in Germany, so I don't understand what that has to do with anything.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
  > If they did, law enforcement could stop them and there wouldn't have been a need for this new law. So? Now, there is a law, and so what was legal before is not anymore. That is the point of creating new laws. > They can still make money off a German audience without any business presence in Germany. Legally, from the US. Where you are acting from does not have any influence on legality. If Germany has a law that makes what someone does in the US illegal, then it's illegal. Acting from the US only limits enforcability. If Facebook has no presence or business in Germany, Germany cannot do anything to enforce that law against Facebook. But it seems like Facebook is of the opinion that they have enough Business in Germany that it's worth for them to comply with the laws to be able to keep that business. > Advertisers don't all discriminate. Well, but most advertisers that want to advertise to a German audience are from Germany. If you want to be paid by advertisers from Germany, you better follow German laws, or Germany will seize the funds your German advertisers are paying you to pay fines or other debts that you owe in Germany.
  - hardwires 9y ago
    >> So? Now, there is a law, and so what was legal before is not anymore. That's my whole point, it was legal before and they weren't "making money illegally" (as the parent claimed), hence my the need for new laws. >> Where you are acting from does not have any influence on legality. If Germany has a law that makes what someone does in the US illegal, then it's illegal. It's not illegal in the US, from which they are operating. That's what matters. Close to 100% of porn sites are probably doing things illegally from a German legislative point of view. They're making money off of horny Germany nonetheless. So, the idea that our laws can "teach" them is ludicrous. >> But it seems like Facebook is of the opinion that they have enough Business in Germany that it's worth for them to comply with the laws to be able to keep that business. Yes, they chose that tradeoff over leaving the market, because at the end of the day they don't give a fuck. They did the same for China. They are probably working on AI-based deletion bots as we speak. What a great success, eh? >> Well, but most advertisers that want to advertise to a German audience are from Germany. If you want to be paid by advertisers from Germany, you better follow German laws, or Germany will seize the funds your German advertisers are paying you to pay fines or other debts that you owe in Germany. Oh really? When has that ever happened? If I turn off my adblock, most of what I get is international brands (YMMV), so even if all the German advertisers were gone, it would be a drop in a bucket. Maybe big enough of a drop for the company to care, maybe not, but the point remains that it is that the users stand to lose more here than any of the companies involved.

germanier 9y ago

I don't like all our laws either (this included) but I accept that as a society we must respect and enforce the laws we democratically choose to enact. Rule of law is a fundamental pillar of society and if that is stopped getting accepted by society at large we are in for a bad time. I don't make the laws and Facebook doesn't either. If Facebook and co. don't want to operate in Germany, they are free to withdraw from that market. They clearly target Germany and there is a lot of money to be made here. If they want that - fine but please respect that we play by our rules here.

hardwires 9y ago
>> I don't like all our laws either (this included) but I accept that as a society we must respect and enforce the laws we democratically choose to enact. No, we don't. Who taught you this nonsense? In fact, it is our duty as citizens to fight bad laws, no matter if they were "democratically chosen" or not. In Germany, we don't choose laws democratically, either. We elect representatives who may or may not do a good job at legislation, and it's our duty to scrutinize that. Don't forget that Hitler was elected democratically and pretty much everything that happened from thereon was legal under German law.
- germanier 9y ago
  > No, we don't. Who taught you this nonsense? Art. 20 II of our constitution. That's the philosophical foundation of how our state works. Every state action is derived from that principle. That's of course no nonsense but thankfully absolutely unchallenged by everybody who teaches you about our state. Not every state action is good, some are even objectively bad. Of course working against such is a civic duty. But wanting to enforce a law against corporations that interacts with and clearly influences people here is neither ridiculous, nor arrogant or hubristic. > Don't forget that Hitler was elected democratically and pretty much everything that happened from thereon was legal under German law. Well, apart from basically all the things that granted that period a special place in every history book hopefully forever. We integrated various safeguards into our constitution and laws to ensure that something like that never happens again. This law (no matter how bad) is a piece in that puzzle and should be viewed as such.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago

> You want your German Extrawurst. Now, that is an interesting interpretation of the rule of law if I have ever seen one! So, in your opinion, having to follow the laws of a country you visit or that you do business in is somehow illegitimate because it's an Extrawurst? Is it your expectation that the US will apply German law to you when you visit the US? > These are not German companies, they don't need to operate out of Germany, Well, true? > so why should they have to follow our every law? Because they do operate in Germany? > If anything, you'd be "teaching" them not to bother with Germany, because it's too much of a pain in the ass. So, we shouldn't apply laws because that could be teaching people to not bother with Germany? So I suppose you think we shouldn't apply laws at all, then? It's not like Germans couldn't end up learning that they should leave the country if they have to follow laws, is it?

hardwires 9y ago
>> Now, that is an interesting interpretation of the rule of law if I have ever seen one! That isn't an "interpretation of the rule of law", that's a response to the bold statement that "We really need to teach [...] all those companies some manners and respect for our society". Yes, we can introduce all sorts of stupid laws to make foreign companies do as we please or have them leave. No, we're not "teaching" them "manners and respect" for our society. We killed millions of people, not even a hundred years ago, but now we're the paragons of virtue? Give me a fucking break... >> Because they do operate in Germany? Clearly whatever they did was legal in however way they operate "in Germany", or there would have been a German court case.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
  > Clearly whatever they did was legal in however way they operate "in Germany", or there would have been a German court case. Actually, what they did was not legal. Not appearing in court when a judge orders you to is not legal. It just so happens that it's not enforcable when the person ordered to appear happens to be in a different country. In order to limit the negative effects of this illegal behaviour, now more of their behaviour has been made illegal in such a way that if they don't follow those rules, it can actually be enforced.