5 ms·

But there always was a very clear procedure for reporting illegal content: You visit your local police station and tell them.

hwh 9y ago
This is for prosecution. The removal of such speech is a civil suit. Facebook/Twitter might have taken a post more serious when the police came and asked questions, but then, they might not. And prosecution might not what a victim was after, as this involved being part of a legal case where your stance is weaker than that of the claimed perpetrator (as it is a penal case then).
Tomte 9y ago
And that never went anywhere, because Facebook disobeyed even court orders. They never replied to judges. They never took down posts a court had ordered them to. The NetzDG is bad law, and will probably be repealed before the Constitution Court rules it unconstitutional. But it was a reaction to social networks disobeying the law. An overreaction, yes, but a reaction. I wish it were more commonly known in libertarian and net freedom circles that the pendulum swings both ways. After excesses in one direction it will swing far into the other direction. Maybe keep that in mind when pursuing extreme goals at any cost, instead of find8ng a middle way that works for everyone. I think the NetzDG is crap and won‘t stay for long. But I also think that Facebook and Twitter deserve all this pain.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
  Well, sure, but it didn't go nowhere because a clear procedure for reporting didn't exist, but because the law was not enforced and maybe because some pieces necessary for successful enforcement were missing (which the NetzDG adds, in addition to all the crap that privatizes the law enforcement). Really, I don't see many people in "net freedom circles" who object to forcing Facebook to delete illegal posts. The objection is rather to (a) deleting stuff instead of prosecuting the perpetrators, (b) hiding (censoring) stuff that's still there, and (c) making parties other than the judicial system responsible for limiting speech. But, yeah, sure, I don't care about Facebook or Twitter either.
  - Tomte 9y ago
    The thing missing for enforcement was Facebook respecting our laws. They simply said „none of our officers is living in Germany, so fuck off“. Now we‘ve added a way to make them hurt. Financially. And I see virtually everyone in the net freedom circles objecting to FB deleting illegal posts. Because our laws are unjust, you see. Only American laws count. We really need to teach Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AirBNB and all those companies some manners and respect for our society.
    - hardwires 9y ago
      >> We really need to teach Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AirBNB and all those companies some manners and respect for our society. As a German, let me tell you that this sounds absolutely ridiculous, arrogant and hubristic. You want your German Extrawurst. We're not "one society", not everyone agrees with the tons of laws and regulations we have (mostly on account of special pleading and lobbyism). German users came to Facebook and Twitter first, not the other way around. These are not German companies, they don't need to operate out of Germany, so why should they have to follow our every law? If anything, you'd be "teaching" them not to bother with Germany, because it's too much of a pain in the ass.
      - Tomte 9y ago
        I would have no problem with them deciding it‘s not worth the trouble and banning German users. I have a problem with how they want to make money here, but illegally. And yes, I want rules to be decided democratically. Not by „what does hardwires think about it?“.
        hardwires 9y ago
        >> I would have no problem with them deciding it‘s not worth the trouble and banning German users. Why should they ban them? They should allow access from all countries. Would you argue that Twitter and Facebook should help enforce all the customs of countries like Iran or North Korea by banning its users? Just get out of the way! >> I have a problem with how they want to make money here, but illegally. They aren't making money illegally here. They never have. If they did, law enforcement could stop them and there wouldn't have been a need for this new law. They can still make money off a German audience without any business presence in Germany. Legally, from the US. Advertisers don't all discriminate. There's nothing you (or the German government) can do about that, except maybe for censoring the "German version" of the internet. If that's what you want, to the detriment of all German internet users, then please say so. >> And yes, I want rules to be decided democratically. Not by „what does hardwires think about it?“. These rules are not decided democratically in Germany, so I don't understand what that has to do with anything.

hwh 9y ago

This is for prosecution. The removal of such speech is a civil suit. Facebook/Twitter might have taken a post more serious when the police came and asked questions, but then, they might not. And prosecution might not what a victim was after, as this involved being part of a legal case where your stance is weaker than that of the claimed perpetrator (as it is a penal case then).

Tomte 9y ago

And that never went anywhere, because Facebook disobeyed even court orders. They never replied to judges. They never took down posts a court had ordered them to. The NetzDG is bad law, and will probably be repealed before the Constitution Court rules it unconstitutional. But it was a reaction to social networks disobeying the law. An overreaction, yes, but a reaction. I wish it were more commonly known in libertarian and net freedom circles that the pendulum swings both ways. After excesses in one direction it will swing far into the other direction. Maybe keep that in mind when pursuing extreme goals at any cost, instead of find8ng a middle way that works for everyone. I think the NetzDG is crap and won‘t stay for long. But I also think that Facebook and Twitter deserve all this pain.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
Well, sure, but it didn't go nowhere because a clear procedure for reporting didn't exist, but because the law was not enforced and maybe because some pieces necessary for successful enforcement were missing (which the NetzDG adds, in addition to all the crap that privatizes the law enforcement). Really, I don't see many people in "net freedom circles" who object to forcing Facebook to delete illegal posts. The objection is rather to (a) deleting stuff instead of prosecuting the perpetrators, (b) hiding (censoring) stuff that's still there, and (c) making parties other than the judicial system responsible for limiting speech. But, yeah, sure, I don't care about Facebook or Twitter either.
- Tomte 9y ago
  The thing missing for enforcement was Facebook respecting our laws. They simply said „none of our officers is living in Germany, so fuck off“. Now we‘ve added a way to make them hurt. Financially. And I see virtually everyone in the net freedom circles objecting to FB deleting illegal posts. Because our laws are unjust, you see. Only American laws count. We really need to teach Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AirBNB and all those companies some manners and respect for our society.
  - hardwires 9y ago
    >> We really need to teach Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AirBNB and all those companies some manners and respect for our society. As a German, let me tell you that this sounds absolutely ridiculous, arrogant and hubristic. You want your German Extrawurst. We're not "one society", not everyone agrees with the tons of laws and regulations we have (mostly on account of special pleading and lobbyism). German users came to Facebook and Twitter first, not the other way around. These are not German companies, they don't need to operate out of Germany, so why should they have to follow our every law? If anything, you'd be "teaching" them not to bother with Germany, because it's too much of a pain in the ass.
    - Tomte 9y ago
      I would have no problem with them deciding it‘s not worth the trouble and banning German users. I have a problem with how they want to make money here, but illegally. And yes, I want rules to be decided democratically. Not by „what does hardwires think about it?“.
      - hardwires 9y ago
        >> I would have no problem with them deciding it‘s not worth the trouble and banning German users. Why should they ban them? They should allow access from all countries. Would you argue that Twitter and Facebook should help enforce all the customs of countries like Iran or North Korea by banning its users? Just get out of the way! >> I have a problem with how they want to make money here, but illegally. They aren't making money illegally here. They never have. If they did, law enforcement could stop them and there wouldn't have been a need for this new law. They can still make money off a German audience without any business presence in Germany. Legally, from the US. Advertisers don't all discriminate. There's nothing you (or the German government) can do about that, except maybe for censoring the "German version" of the internet. If that's what you want, to the detriment of all German internet users, then please say so. >> And yes, I want rules to be decided democratically. Not by „what does hardwires think about it?“. These rules are not decided democratically in Germany, so I don't understand what that has to do with anything.