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If the downstream consequences of this: > Teenagers are also having less sex, especially of the procreative kind. In 1991, 54% of American teenagers in grades
by TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
If the downstream consequences of this:
> Teenagers are also having less sex, especially of the procreative kind. In 1991, 54% of American teenagers in grades nine to 12 (ages 14-18) reported that they were sexually experienced, and 19% claimed to have had sex with at least four partners. In 2015 those proportions were 41% and 12%. America’s teenage birth rate crashed by two-thirds during the same period.
Is this:
> As with alcohol, the abstention from sex seems to be carrying through into early adulthood. Jean Twenge, a psychologist at San Diego State University in California, has shown that the proportion of Americans aged 20-24 who report having no sexual partner since the age of 18 rose from 6.3% for the cohort born in the late 1960s to 15.2% for those born in the early 1990s. Japan is a more extreme case. In 2015, 47% of unmarried 20- to 24-year-old Japanese men said they had never had sex with a woman, up from 34% in 2002.
I'm not convinced that is a good thing.
- qubex 9y agoWhy? Repudiation of this abhorrent ”hookup culture” that seems to be sweeping through our western societies is to be applauded. I’m not arguing for abstention, but reserving sex for monogamous, committed relationships is, as far as I am concerned, an unmitigated good.
- hateduser2 9y agoI like that for myself but how can you say that is good?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- eecc 9y agoWhy? What’s so intrinsically special in monogamy to deserve the label “unmitigated good”?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- throwawaycanada 9y agoLong term it's the most stable.
- eecc 9y agoHmm, not sure there's enough data to discern confounding factors and assert monogamy guarantees stable and durable relations. Narrative and history actually suggest otherwise, that the constraint or expectation of monogamy eventually undoes the relationship...
- iotscale 9y agoIMHO it's bad, as long as a lifestyle is pushed heavily from people who aren't immediate family. Doesn't matter if it's "hookup culture" or waiting for the prince charming to marry.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago> as long as a lifestyle is pushed heavily from people who aren't immediate family Is a lifestyle pushed by people who are immediately family inherently a good thing?
- iotscale 9y agoI just thought, to a certain age, it may be required. I'm not a parent so I probably don't know what I'm talking about.
- BjoernKW 9y agoThere’s a vast difference between a hookup culture and having consensual, if casual, sex with someone. A relationship without doubt is a good thing but it isn’t the only thing. Modern society for shallow moral reasons conflates committed relationships with sex. This causes a lot of problems and probably is one of the main reasons why relationships break up or people feel miserable in relationships.
- icebraining 9y agoThere’s a vast difference between a hookup culture and having consensual, if casual, sex with someone. Is hookup necessarily (or even mostly) non-consensual? I'm probably missing some cultural context, what's the distinction you're making?
- BjoernKW 9y agoIt's about the way it's painted in the media. Hookups are often depicted as negative, morally questionable and at times non-consensual as well (mostly involving drugs). There's been a moral panic about this in recent years. Having consensual, casual sex with someone on the other hand shouldn't ever be considered questionable, given that you're being honest with everyone involved, which might include someone you're in a committed relationship with at the time. So, doing something consensually never is a bad thing. Lying is, to others as well as to yourself.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago> Hookups are often depicted as negative, morally questionable and at times non-consensual as well (mostly involving drugs). Why on Earth would you conflate hookups and rape? Please stop.
- BjoernKW 9y agoTo those downvoting this comment: Renowned relationship therapists like Esther Perel seem to agree with me on this matter.
- yarrrr 9y agoThe downvotes are telling. They wanted to make heterosexuals as promiscuous as homosexuals to normalise their situation. Now that's being undone. Certain people are scared.
- qubex 9y agoDon’t try to make this into a proxy for homophobia, please. This (or at the very least my comment) has nothing to do with making value judgements on whom you are attracted to or what orientation you subscribe to. There is no attempt at creating moral equivalency and I am definitely not going to let it stand unchallenged that my stance is about denigrating people of differing orientations.
- yarrrr 9y agoI was talking for myself, not for you. Also, homosexuality is abhorrent.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y agoHow can nature be abhorrent? That's like saying God made a mistake. It would probably be okay for you to say "I find homosexuality abhorrent", and then we can all laugh you out of the room for your anachronistic opinion. But when you say "homosexuality is abhorrent" without owning the statement, you're attempting to make a universal statement of truth. To which case we will laugh you out of the room for your anachronistic opinion anyway.
- qubex 9y agoYou write about God not making mistakes... but also of repudiating ”Judeo-Christian“ doctrine... which is it?
- shawabawa3 9y agohaha wtf Maybe people just want to enjoy their life without some judgy puritans telling them what to do
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y agoThe idea that there is a hookup culture sweeping through our western societies is directly contradicted by the numbers presented in the very article we are discussing here. And anyway, I reject this prudish Judeo-Christian inspired sexual ethics. Sex is good and good for you. There should be more of.
- qubex 9y agoYou’re most welcome to reject this ”Judeo-Christian prudishness” (or whatever you want to call it) but just keep in mind I’m an atheist, and all for rejecting dogma — including the new doctrines of consumerism that is snaking it’s way into our private sphere, making us all willing to use each other (apparently) for our short-term jollies.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y agoThere is nothing new about us humans having short-term jollies, or even medium- / long-term jollies that are non-monogamous. Short- / medium- / long-term non-monogamous jollies goes as far back as time immemorial. As far back as the beginnings of life itself. I'm willing to bet monogamy is the new normal as far as historical longevity is concerned. I'm no anthropologist, so I'm willing to be corrected on that matter. Also, I'd argue consumerism isn't exactly new either. People have been blowing their pay packets at their local pub since the invention of the local pub.
- vedloseper 9y agoPeople also have been rejecting that since time immemorial, so the strength of your argument just barely suffices to eat itself.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y agoThat some people have been rejecting it since time immemorial doesn't mean those behaviours don't exist. What I'm disagreeing with is this: new doctrines of consumerism that is <snip> making us all willing to use each other (apparently) for our short-term jollies. It isn't the new doctrines of consumerism that are making us do this, it's human nature; we like to fuck. So your argument ... isn't one.
- ParamModule 9y agoI disagree with that completely, like honestly people that prefer monogamy generally do so because they are either afraid to be alone, because it was what they were brought up on, just don't want to deal with being rejected a bunch before hooking up that night, or they are romantics. Monogamy is rarely worth it just because there aren't a lot of people out there in the world that meet the conditions of the sex not becoming boring, and like being interesting enough to you so that you actually want to spend half your free time with them. Like I've only had one long relationship and that was because she met the aforementioned conditions, and I mean we weren't monogamous, like she was basically that one giant slut you knew in high school that got a full ride to Cornell. Like most of the time it doesn't last a month, because I get bored, and just don't see her as worth the maintenance. Especially when like when you are in your 20s like a lot of the pretty attractive girls you built up in your head, actually just lie there once you have sex with them, and because like most young people still haven't fully matured in regards to their interests and knowledge bases they are boring. Before you go on my profile and bring up my post on CPlusEquality, I am not sexist I am just a misanthrope. I find most people boring in large doses.
- tzahola 9y agoDon’t use the word “like” so frequently.
- Fuckthisboard 9y agoDon't tell people what to do
- watwut 9y agoProtip: if you want to argue that non-monogamous sex is cooler and better, your argument will be stronger if you don't call your girl slut. I mean, she is doing what you argue is good, so shaming her weakens that.
- ParamModule 9y agoWell she was really promiscuous, I'm not shaming her but I get it certain words offend certain people so I should filter what I write.
- mcantelon 9y agoThe birthrate in most of the West is sub-replacement. Inter-generation testosterone decreases, and cultural factors, likely play a part. Youth suicides have gone up considerably in the last decade.
- gaius 9y agoInter-generation testosterone decreases It’s not just hyperbole: the youth of today really are soft https://uk.news.yahoo.com/generation-wimps-millennial-men-are-weaker-than-094920561.html https://uk.news.yahoo.com/generation-wimps-millennial-men-ar...
- comstock 9y agoHaving two kids, the answer feels really obvious to me, but I’d love to see data supporting any viewpoint. Raising multiple children in western society is really hard. In many (most?) cases you need to move away from family (parents) so there’s limited support from the community or family. There’s limited childcare available, and on top of that kids are expensive. Often both partners are working (or want to get back to work as soon as possible). So if you can satisfy your procreative desires with one child, you just do that. Compare this to (totally unjust) prior social norms where people didn’t move as far as they do now. Meaning parents could help out. Where it was common to have one non-working partner (so more available time to look after kids). We’ve created a modern society where raising one child is super-stressful. Why would any sane person have two? I predict that as more societies transform toward the western model we’ll see a massive population decline.
- mcantelon 9y agoTrue. Societies may, however, be hesitant to follow our footsteps towards atomization and low birthrate.
- comstock 9y agoI think globally, most societies are follow this trend. My hope would be that we find a way through it. In part, the solution might be more even distribution of the benefits of automation. Less concentration of wealth, lowered cost of living or support which allows both parents to take time off work for the first few grads of their children’s lives.
- quadcore 9y agoI wonder the impact of social media here again. When I was in high school in 2000, there s been a couple of events that could not be done nowdays: a drunk and naked girl dancing on a table, some other having sex in a bar, oral sex in the middle of a party, etc. You do any of that today, you end up on internet.
- iotscale 9y agoGiven enough eyeballs, everyone becomes shallow.
- Blazespinnaker 9y agoYeah, think of the cam scene in American pie. The gossip that fires through the internet. iPhones are like cctvs per person.
- watwut 9y agoYeah, it is much better for 15 years old to get pregnant, then to not have sex before 18. Or something.
- thaumasiotes 9y agoFrom an evolutionary perspective, that is obviously true. The only reason you wouldn't want to get pregnant is that getting pregnant now reduces the number of children you can have over your entire lifespan. This is clearly not the case in, say, the US.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y agoFrom a biological perspective, what purpose does sexual maturity serve other than perpetuation of the species? Therefore, it could be argued that the idea of teenage pregnancy being a problem is a cultural quirk. It could also be argued that adulthood starting at age eighteen is a cultural quirk.
- watwut 9y agoAs long as you simultaneously don't yell how those mostly-single moms are poor and their lives (and lives of their children) sux because they were irresponsible and don't deserve any help whatsoever cause they brought it on themselves. And as long as you subsequently don't claim all youth criminality on those young moms and dads.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y agoI have no idea what you're on about. I'm not claiming any of that.
- krastanov 9y agoThe point is that many do, and as such this is inherently part of the "cultural quirk" you mentioned. And this is not even mentioning that important development continues after 18.
- silvestrov 9y ago> they were sexually experienced I would really like to know the precise words they were asked. There might be some Bill Clinton effect going on where a blowjob was considered "active" in 1991 whereas camsex, porn and blowjobs isn't in 2015. They might even be more active todays, just in a different way.
- dominotw 9y agoI wonder if there is co relation to immigrantion from traditional cultures.