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The outrage at saying you regret having children seems to me to be evidence that there's a nerve there to hit. It's a bit like accusing 10 supposedly straight p

by mabbo 9y ago

The outrage at saying you regret having children seems to me to be evidence that there's a nerve there to hit. It's a bit like accusing 10 supposedly straight people of being secretly gay, and one of them losses their mind screaming denials. 'Methinks he doth protest too much.' But we've built a society in the west based around worshipping our children. Politicians can do anything if it's "for the children", no matter how draconian or insane. It's rude to ever comment on how someone else chooses to raise their children. It's considered horrible to not do everything you can to make your children happier, better, etc. Better go buy a house with a yard because your kid might want a yard, because everyone knows that kids need yards. The really interesting question isn't whether it's okay to regret having children- it's what's going to change when society unshackles itself from this strange obsession.

brango 9y ago
I agree. I wonder who's outraged by someone else saying something about their own life and feelings? I suspect it's other women.
- DashRattlesnake 9y ago
  > I wonder who's outraged by someone else saying something about their own life and feelings? It's kinda violating a social contract. Everyone's the product of thousands of people over thousands of generations who chose to have kids. By choosing not to have kids you also choose to not contribute the the labor force that will likely take care of you in your old age. You can say all you want about contributing money or inventions, but money is just a claim on future labor and few people's inventions are really that valuable.
  - brango 9y ago
    So you're saying those "outraged" parents don't like it either and don't like to see people freeloading and not taking their share of the pain? They're "outraged" because some people are getting off scott-free?
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - Chaebixi 9y ago
      You can still love your job and feel that someone else is a freeloader. I'd think the same would apply here.
      - goatlover 9y ago
        There's no shortage of humans on this planet, and by the time we're retired, automation will have advanced considerably. We're not some small tribe in danger of going extinct. It's a terrible argument to say someone who doesn't reproduce is a freeloader. We need less people on this planet, not more. We're on pace to have 10 billion by mid century. That's going to be a challenge to support that many people while not ruining the environment in the process.
        Chaebixi 9y ago
        > There's no shortage of humans on this planet, and by the time we're retired, automation will have advanced considerably. To be honest, that's a very freeloader-like mindset: "I don't have to contribute to X because someone else will take care of it for me."
        goatlover 9y ago
        I guess the proper response to this in context of the conversation on moral imperative to reproduce, would be, "So what? Why should I care? Either I want kids or I don't, and that's the end of it for me. And since society isn't going to make anyone reproduce, go fuck off."
  - adventured 9y ago
    > few people's inventions are really that valuable The problem is, now you're stepping into quantifying the context on heavily subjective terms. Here's how that goes then: How valuable have most of the last 15 billion people been on average? How about the bottom 50% of those people in terms of productivity and what they contributed to the betterment (subjective) of humanity or the earth? How valuable, in similar terms, have the bottom 10% of those people been? And that's why - among dozens of other good reasons - it's entirely unreasonable to judge a person's life in such a manner.
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    > It's kinda violating a social contract. Everyone's the product of thousands of people over thousands of generations who chose to have kids. It's not actually so clear cut. In all times there was a huge sways of people who won't have kids. Handmaids, sailors, mercenaries, servants, slaves, etc, etc. Some of them could have children but it was never guaranteed. This was offset by other people who'll have more children. Sometimes it wasn't. At all times a lot of lines will wither. Some vast tribes will be reduced to a few dozen families. Social contract is XX century construct and obviously unsustainable at that. Once children stopped being source of labor but labor sinks, it tried to also became unconscionable contract. As in, everybody tries to slack off their duty while praising it to other people. It's like with conscription.
    - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
      Many, many species have members that don't reproduce. After all, "It takes a village to raise a child". The genes of non-reproducers are even selected for - children who share a lineage with them, do better. So the gene carries on.
adventured 9y ago
It's the exact same nerve this story hit, about how the years after having a child tend to be among the most miserable and unhappy for parents (demolishing the fairy tale). https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/08/11/the-most-depressing-statistic-imaginable-about-being-a-new-parent/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/0... I remember seeing some of the rage reaction to it online at the time. When a study like that gets that kind of response, you know it's probably hitting close to home for the people responding.
graphitezepp 9y ago
I agree completely with the outrage being a product of people propping up denial of their own dissatisfaction with their decisions. Though I am biased having gone through the homophobic denial thing myself, it seems to be a very common pattern, and can only really only be addressed by society not signally so strongly that everyone "should" be a certain way.
- fhood 9y ago
  Maybe that is part of it. But I think it has more to do with the enormous responsibility inherent in parenting. Because with parenting you can't just quit. Becoming a parent is equivalent to deciding that for 18 years someone else's life is more important than your own, and if you weren't willing to commit to that then you have made an unpardonable mistake by being a parent. Now with that said, should parents be able to gripe without repercussions? Absolutely. But griping is not the same as expressing regret, and expressing regret can imply you weren't really up for the job.
  - mabbo 9y ago
    > deciding that for 18 years someone else's life is more important than your own Intrinsically, deep down, I feel in complete agreement that you're right about that statement. And then I stop and think "wait, isn't that the very point I was just trying to make above? That something is wrong with this?" Why do children have to me more important than parents? Why not 'just as important'? Consider: if we had a friend who had a new boyfriend and constantly put the boyfriend's needs above her own saying 'that's just how relationships work, you put their needs above yours, always', we'd have an intervention for that friend. We'd say that's not healthy, that there has to be give and take, that we all have our own needs that are important too. But make the other side a child and well, now that's just the right way to do things. I'm not saying that we're wrong for thinking that- I'm saying we should really look at that deeply and figure out if we're sure that it's right. How far is too far? Are we past that point? Maybe our own happiness should sometimes win out over our children's happiness and that's not a monstrous thing.
paulddraper 9y ago
? It is neither weird nor obsessive. People don't like hearing "I wish my children were never born", because it sounds a lot like desire to commit homicide. People also don't like hearing "I wish I were never born", because it sounds a lot like suicide. I understand the need to talk about things the way they really are. But don't be surprised if regretting life is deeply abhorrent to most.
- draw_down 9y ago
  > People don't like hearing "I wish my children were never born", because it sounds a lot like desire to commit homicide. Of course it does not. What a horrible thing to say!
endorphone 9y ago
The `outrage' (at least the imagined outrage) is that it's considered really unfortunate/unhealthy for your children when you say that you regret having children, because children generally will think themselves to blame. The rest of your post...I think doth protest too much? Some people have children. Some people don't. We're a product of an evolution that makes many of us want to procreate. Strange obsession? What a bizarre statement. Secondly, many of the things people complain about are only tangentially and superficially actually related to the child. Every Christmas some parents go to herculean lengths to get the must have toy (or the $900 stroller or only the best school, etc) not because their kid actually wants or needs it, but as a status symbol/achievement among their clique. Humans are imperfect - story at 11.
orbitur 9y ago
Hell yeah, there's a nerve to hit. My first thought isn't about the shitty parent or my own choices, it's about the kid who's a secondary character, or whose mere existence appears to be exclusively a cause of grief for their parents. How does the kid feel? What is being done to ensure the kids aren't fucked up if their caretaker is moping around saying they'd rather have a lifetime of wine parties instead of going to soccer practice twice a week? Do you also believe the "bullies are just jealous of their victims" story?

by mabbo 9y ago

brango 9y ago

I agree. I wonder who's outraged by someone else saying something about their own life and feelings? I suspect it's other women.

DashRattlesnake 9y ago
> I wonder who's outraged by someone else saying something about their own life and feelings? It's kinda violating a social contract. Everyone's the product of thousands of people over thousands of generations who chose to have kids. By choosing not to have kids you also choose to not contribute the the labor force that will likely take care of you in your old age. You can say all you want about contributing money or inventions, but money is just a claim on future labor and few people's inventions are really that valuable.
- brango 9y ago
  So you're saying those "outraged" parents don't like it either and don't like to see people freeloading and not taking their share of the pain? They're "outraged" because some people are getting off scott-free?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - Chaebixi 9y ago
    You can still love your job and feel that someone else is a freeloader. I'd think the same would apply here.
    - goatlover 9y ago
      There's no shortage of humans on this planet, and by the time we're retired, automation will have advanced considerably. We're not some small tribe in danger of going extinct. It's a terrible argument to say someone who doesn't reproduce is a freeloader. We need less people on this planet, not more. We're on pace to have 10 billion by mid century. That's going to be a challenge to support that many people while not ruining the environment in the process.
      - Chaebixi 9y ago
        > There's no shortage of humans on this planet, and by the time we're retired, automation will have advanced considerably. To be honest, that's a very freeloader-like mindset: "I don't have to contribute to X because someone else will take care of it for me."
        goatlover 9y ago
        I guess the proper response to this in context of the conversation on moral imperative to reproduce, would be, "So what? Why should I care? Either I want kids or I don't, and that's the end of it for me. And since society isn't going to make anyone reproduce, go fuck off."
- adventured 9y ago
  > few people's inventions are really that valuable The problem is, now you're stepping into quantifying the context on heavily subjective terms. Here's how that goes then: How valuable have most of the last 15 billion people been on average? How about the bottom 50% of those people in terms of productivity and what they contributed to the betterment (subjective) of humanity or the earth? How valuable, in similar terms, have the bottom 10% of those people been? And that's why - among dozens of other good reasons - it's entirely unreasonable to judge a person's life in such a manner.
- thriftwy 9y ago
  > It's kinda violating a social contract. Everyone's the product of thousands of people over thousands of generations who chose to have kids. It's not actually so clear cut. In all times there was a huge sways of people who won't have kids. Handmaids, sailors, mercenaries, servants, slaves, etc, etc. Some of them could have children but it was never guaranteed. This was offset by other people who'll have more children. Sometimes it wasn't. At all times a lot of lines will wither. Some vast tribes will be reduced to a few dozen families. Social contract is XX century construct and obviously unsustainable at that. Once children stopped being source of labor but labor sinks, it tried to also became unconscionable contract. As in, everybody tries to slack off their duty while praising it to other people. It's like with conscription.
  - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
    Many, many species have members that don't reproduce. After all, "It takes a village to raise a child". The genes of non-reproducers are even selected for - children who share a lineage with them, do better. So the gene carries on.

adventured 9y ago

It's the exact same nerve this story hit, about how the years after having a child tend to be among the most miserable and unhappy for parents (demolishing the fairy tale). https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/08/11/the-most-depressing-statistic-imaginable-about-being-a-new-parent/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/0... I remember seeing some of the rage reaction to it online at the time. When a study like that gets that kind of response, you know it's probably hitting close to home for the people responding.

graphitezepp 9y ago

I agree completely with the outrage being a product of people propping up denial of their own dissatisfaction with their decisions. Though I am biased having gone through the homophobic denial thing myself, it seems to be a very common pattern, and can only really only be addressed by society not signally so strongly that everyone "should" be a certain way.

fhood 9y ago
Maybe that is part of it. But I think it has more to do with the enormous responsibility inherent in parenting. Because with parenting you can't just quit. Becoming a parent is equivalent to deciding that for 18 years someone else's life is more important than your own, and if you weren't willing to commit to that then you have made an unpardonable mistake by being a parent. Now with that said, should parents be able to gripe without repercussions? Absolutely. But griping is not the same as expressing regret, and expressing regret can imply you weren't really up for the job.
- mabbo 9y ago
  > deciding that for 18 years someone else's life is more important than your own Intrinsically, deep down, I feel in complete agreement that you're right about that statement. And then I stop and think "wait, isn't that the very point I was just trying to make above? That something is wrong with this?" Why do children have to me more important than parents? Why not 'just as important'? Consider: if we had a friend who had a new boyfriend and constantly put the boyfriend's needs above her own saying 'that's just how relationships work, you put their needs above yours, always', we'd have an intervention for that friend. We'd say that's not healthy, that there has to be give and take, that we all have our own needs that are important too. But make the other side a child and well, now that's just the right way to do things. I'm not saying that we're wrong for thinking that- I'm saying we should really look at that deeply and figure out if we're sure that it's right. How far is too far? Are we past that point? Maybe our own happiness should sometimes win out over our children's happiness and that's not a monstrous thing.

paulddraper 9y ago

? It is neither weird nor obsessive. People don't like hearing "I wish my children were never born", because it sounds a lot like desire to commit homicide. People also don't like hearing "I wish I were never born", because it sounds a lot like suicide. I understand the need to talk about things the way they really are. But don't be surprised if regretting life is deeply abhorrent to most.

draw_down 9y ago
> People don't like hearing "I wish my children were never born", because it sounds a lot like desire to commit homicide. Of course it does not. What a horrible thing to say!

endorphone 9y ago

The `outrage' (at least the imagined outrage) is that it's considered really unfortunate/unhealthy for your children when you say that you regret having children, because children generally will think themselves to blame. The rest of your post...I think doth protest too much? Some people have children. Some people don't. We're a product of an evolution that makes many of us want to procreate. Strange obsession? What a bizarre statement. Secondly, many of the things people complain about are only tangentially and superficially actually related to the child. Every Christmas some parents go to herculean lengths to get the must have toy (or the $900 stroller or only the best school, etc) not because their kid actually wants or needs it, but as a status symbol/achievement among their clique. Humans are imperfect - story at 11.

orbitur 9y ago

Hell yeah, there's a nerve to hit. My first thought isn't about the shitty parent or my own choices, it's about the kid who's a secondary character, or whose mere existence appears to be exclusively a cause of grief for their parents. How does the kid feel? What is being done to ensure the kids aren't fucked up if their caretaker is moping around saying they'd rather have a lifetime of wine parties instead of going to soccer practice twice a week? Do you also believe the "bullies are just jealous of their victims" story?