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All in favor of being open about the ups and downs of parenthood. What I do resent is when parents try to make their struggles look like some sort of noble sacr

All in favor of being open about the ups and downs of parenthood. What I do resent is when parents try to make their struggles look like some sort of noble sacrifice they've performed for the greater good, when ultimately having children is just a personal choice they made. I can sympathize up to a point, but when parents complain that they hate their lifestyle (or lack of one) now that they have children, it's hard not to think "well, gee, maybe should've considered that before making such a momentous decision."

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
That’s a bit harsh. First, you really have no idea what you are getting into when you have a kid, no one can prepare you for it, all of what you think you know about having a baby is probably wrong (unless you’ve had one). We are also biologically inclined to ignore thinking about what kind of pain we are in for and just be...excited. Otherwise, I doubt anyone would have kids and humanity would just go instinct. Likewise, once the kid has arrived, nature pulls more tricks to keep us parents motivated (evolved cuteness, for example).
- iopuy 9y ago
  You can definitely be prepared for what it is like to have a child before having one. Everything you know is not wrong. Yes, it may be a lot of work but it is not beyond the realm of comprehension for us mere mortals.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    We went to all the classes and read all the books. And no, we weren’t prepared, had way too many misconceptions about baby behavior, and this is above all babies being different.
    - taeric 9y ago
      To strengthen your point. This is ultimately my problem with any statistically based thing. If parenthood was deterministic, then it would be easy. So, is it possible that some folks are "fully prepared" for parenthood? Almost certainly. I'd expect that the numbers work out such that people like this do exist. Parents that were fully ready for the children they got. However, this is like expecting someone can know exactly how to play poker, following the rules on when to bet and when not to, and then getting shocked to see that you still don't win every game. Statistically, you will lose games. Best you can do is have the game setup so that the losses are small and the wins are leveraged.
  - jdmichal 9y ago
    This is like saying you can learn to write a perfect program, without ever writing one. Sure, while maybe theoretically possible, I'll take someone with 10 years of experience over 10 years of study everyday. Because at some point, experience is a thing; having lived through the event and having the scars. And that experience is really an irreplaceable part of being human and the learning process.
    - Toast_25 9y ago
      TIL I'm the equivalent of a badly written "Hello world".
    - la6470 9y ago
      HA HA Ha obviously you don’t have a kid .... otherwise no way you can compare the most intelligent program in the universe with the thing you call program that you type in a terminal
  - purephase 9y ago
    The variables with children are nearly impossible to prepare for. No amount of preparation will do handle: 1. Development/physical disabilities, or overall health issues 2. Reaction from others, will immediate/extended family help? It's one thing to ask, another for the reality to set in. Overall support base in general. 3. Employment realities. Will a lot of employers have explicitly stated policies, the day-to-day realities often differ (and can be very different between mum(s)/dad(s)). 4. Just general variations in children/growth. I have two, one eats but doesn't sleep well, the other doesn't eat well but sleeps soundly. One enjoys time to himself, but has a temper. The other is far more social (so much social) but is very even-tempered and empathic. No amount of preparation can provide enough knowledge/experience to deal with these qualities, not withstanding 1/2/3. As others said, we read books, attended classes, looked after nieces/nephews, younger siblings, baby sat etc. We were still woefully unprepared for our own.
  - ziotom78 9y ago
    I disagree. I have three kids, and before them being born I was aware that being a parent means a lot of work. But I realize now that I was not really understanding what being a father really means. It's much more laborious, complex yet satisfying and marvellous than I could ever have imagined.
  - coryfklein 9y ago
    This is not practically true. Imagine if the same could be said for romantic relationships: "You can definitely be prepared for what cohabitation/marriage is like before your first relationship. It may be a lot of work, but it is not beyond comprehension." Yes, the brain is capable of comprehending life in cohabitation, as proven by the current mental state of all who are currently in the situation. Getting to that mental state without experiencing cohabitation is practically impossible. Now swap out "romantic partner" with "small person completely dependent upon you for survival for the next 18+ years".
  - projectileboy 9y ago
    You're not wrong, but in most areas of life there's a reason we make a distinction between education and experience. Knowing that there will be sleepless nights with a crying baby is very, very different than surviving sleepless nights with a crying baby.
- oftenwrong 9y ago
  You don't need to be prepared for raising a child to know that it is difficult and that it will require major sacrifices.
- Momquist 9y ago
  > First, you really have no idea what you are getting into when you have a kid, no one can prepare you for it, all of what you think you know about having a baby is probably wrong (unless you’ve had one). I guess this is the result of having so few children nowadays. But not so long ago, many people got a very real and practical first experience by helping in raising their siblings. And depending on how large the family was, I assure you it could prepare you very well.
- Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
  > First, you really have no idea what you are getting into when you have a kid, no one can prepare you for it, all of what you think you know about having a baby is probably wrong (unless you’ve had one). I dunno...to me that's just a cop-out excuse to avoid simply admitting that you didn't do your research, or that you turned a blind eye to warning signs of what parenting is like. Do people go through life not knowing other people that have kids and not see what they go through? I don't have kids. I had a vasectomy earlier this year to make sure I don't have kids. I watched my brother have them. To call them a handful is like calling Hurricane Harvey just some light rain and winds. They require constant supervision. Can't even spend 5 minutes taking a dump or they'll scribble on the walls with a Sharpie (Yes, that happened). > (evolved cuteness, for example) I don't think babies are cute in the slightest. To some people, that makes me a monster. I like baby animals. Kittens, puppies, even baby elephants. But baby humans? Nah, I just see some creature that is probably about to decide to start screaming or shit itself.
watwut 9y ago
Do you apply same restrictions on other livestyle complains? Should people never complain about job, because they picked it up voluntary? What about social club, Facebook that read voluntary and complain about constantly and so on and so forth. What it us about parenthood that makes people think we should just present only happy side of it constantly and ever talk about side we don't like or cost us?
- chriswarbo 9y ago
  > What it us about parenthood that makes people think we should just present only happy side of it constantly and ever talk about side we don't like or cost us? This seems like an unfair interpretation of the above. Absolutely talk about the parts you don't like, just acknowledge that you followed a path of your own choosing (whether the consequences were expected or not). Kind of like smokers getting cancer, or needle-sharers getting HIV: the social context requires a little humility.
  - watwut 9y ago
    Complain about your job or management, but acknowledge each time that you have chosen it. Complain about Facebook, but acknowl edge each time you sign up voluntary ... No one sane expect smokers sick with cancer to acknowledge they smoked each time they want talk about cancer. For christ sake, seriously. And I don't even think that having children is like sharing needles. There we are getting into category where you imply that having children is somehow morally bad (or is it having children while not being 100% happy about every aspect of child raising? )
    - nightski 9y ago
      I feel like parents are humans too and some times just need to express their emotion. It doesn't mean they regret their decision necessarily. They might just be going through a difficult day or time. We could use a little more empathy.
    - chriswarbo 9y ago
      Again, I think you're being uncharitable and attacking straw men. One doesn't need to "acknowledge... each time they want to talk" (whether it's smokers, needle-sharers, parents, or whatever). Rather, it's just a matter of how one phrases things, e.g. avoiding a sense of entitlement or being condecending. > And I don't even think that having children is like sharing needles. I think it it, in precisely the sense that I mentioned it: that it's avoidable, and may have severe negative consequences. No more, no less. > There we are getting into category where you imply that having children is somehow morally bad Not at all. I wasn't passing moral judgement, I was giving examples of situations where someone complaining about problems they're suffering may have to choose their language carefully, to avoid being judged harshly in a social context. No more, no less. > or is it having children while not being 100% happy about every aspect of child raising? Again, that's a straw man.
noxToken 9y ago
What if it something that you thought you wanted, but it turned out to be much more than you bargained for? I agree than people shouldn't act like they're making noble sacrifice (because for all intents and purposes, it was your choice), but sometimes you can only prepare so much a priori.
- citizenkeen 9y ago
  My wife and I spent years talking (as a married couple) before having a kid, because as stated elsewhere in the comments, it's the biggest commitment you make in your life. If you're a good person (sweeping generalization), having a kid is pretty much the only thing you can't walk away from in your life.
sidlls 9y ago
In America, at least, having children is most definitely a sacrifice. "Noble" is a subjective qualifier that's actually irrelevant. The fact is without kids the thing that fuels our economy, consumption, disappears. In many ways parents are subsidizing the childless. It isn't a bad thing to note that. Also, nobody knows the extent of what one must give up to parent. No matter how prepared a person thinks he or she is, they aren't. Having kids is very abstract right up to the point that it's not. The concrete realization starts to happen earlier and more intimately for the mother because of the gestational period, but that realization sets in eventually for both parents.
- JoeAltmaier 9y ago
  As my old buddy John McGinty put it "I knew having kids would be a big job; I just didn't know it would be relentless!"
- gaius 9y ago
  In many ways parents are subsidizing the childless What complete nonsense. There are 7Bn+ people in the world. Making more people is not a problem the human race has. Far from subsidising the child-free, you are destroying the ecosystem with your selfishness.
  - dundercoder 9y ago
    Too bad your parents were so selfish.
    - gaius 9y ago
      There were only half as many people in the world when I was born!
      - simplify 9y ago
        What population number makes childbearing selfish, and why?
  - 9y ago
aantix 9y ago
There are plenty of choices in life that are hard to assess until you're fully invested in them. Choosing a life partner? Choosing a stock? Scoping a programming project?? Choices in the above can seem great at first - but maybe they turn out better over time, maybe worse, probably a roller-coaster mixture of elation, unknowns, and heartache. But you'll never fully experience them until you've fully lived through them.
- QAPereo 9y ago
  That’s a good point, but it worries me that with just a change of nouns we could be talking about taking a speedball, taking bloody revenge, or eating rocks.
edbarbar 9y ago
You come from a very long line of parents that reproduced. It's a biological imperative to do so (i.e., we think we have a choice, but in fact have much less than we think we do). To help you understand how absurd your position is, consider if even one of the hundreds of thousands of reproduction "decisions" that are in your line had not been made, you wouldn't be here to express your point of view that it's "just a personal choice."
- Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
  > It's a biological imperative to do so (i.e., we think we have a choice, but in fact have much less than we think we do). I chose to get a vasectomy. I'm 35 and have never in my life desired reproducing. I do not feel that supposed biological imperative. I do feel the imperative to have sex, but having sex and producing babies are entirely different things. You can have one without the other. > To help you understand how absurd your position is, consider if even one of the hundreds of thousands of reproduction "decisions" that are in your line had not been made, you wouldn't be here to express your point of view that it's "just a personal choice." This is not a convincing argument.
hrktb 9y ago
While I agree with you, it is a personal choice, I think that’s not the framing most people are in. For instance my parents strongly believe that having kids is a duty, the more the better. They will brag about having 4 kids and they’ll tirelessly push married people to make them (the endless “is it on the way yet ?”). I also saw a lot of people of their age care a lot about the family lineage not disappearing. Some even atrocely cared about the name being carried on. Even trying to have serious discussions about it just ends in “that’s how the thing have been, that how they should be” kind of rethorics. I sympathize with couples that have their surroundings constantly repeat them they should have a baby, and wouldn’t fault them for thinking it was part of their duty to do so.
underwater 9y ago
Caring for and raising children is a sacrifice. It’s a difficult and unpaid 24/7 job that you’re locked into for 18 years. You’re constantly putting the needs of a tiny human ahead of your own. If you do a good job then they benefit far more than you do. And they won’t realise the extent of your efforts until (or unless) they have children of their own. Seeking praise is pointless. But it’s driven by the same themes the parents in the article talk about.
Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
> What I do resent is when parents try to make their struggles look like some sort of noble sacrifice they've performed for the greater good, when ultimately having children is just a personal choice they made. This really gets me. We as a society do not need more children. Popping out a baby is not an accomplishment. Hell, most babies these days are accidents. It seems strange to me that someone would choose to do something that a lot of people do accidentally, and then expect some sort of recognition for their supposed sacrifice. We as a society simply don't need more babies. The "sacrifice" is unnecessary at best, and possibly egotistical at worst.
- whiddershins 9y ago
  If we don’t have more children, we have population decline which comes with huge negatives. The economy contracts. Social Security implodes, etc. New generations innovate, and they take care of the aging. Having kids is actually a huge sacrifice on the part of the parents that ultimate benefits society as a whole.
rdtsc 9y ago
> What I do resent is when parents try to make their struggles look like some sort of noble sacrifice In that respect maybe it is not that different than climbing a mountain, or achieving mastery in a fencing or long distance running. Would you tell those people "I resent your complaints, you brought this upon yourself, should've stayed home and bother bother with your marathon running" say when they the talk about how hard it is and how they got injured or weather was bad.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

That’s a bit harsh. First, you really have no idea what you are getting into when you have a kid, no one can prepare you for it, all of what you think you know about having a baby is probably wrong (unless you’ve had one). We are also biologically inclined to ignore thinking about what kind of pain we are in for and just be...excited. Otherwise, I doubt anyone would have kids and humanity would just go instinct. Likewise, once the kid has arrived, nature pulls more tricks to keep us parents motivated (evolved cuteness, for example).

iopuy 9y ago
You can definitely be prepared for what it is like to have a child before having one. Everything you know is not wrong. Yes, it may be a lot of work but it is not beyond the realm of comprehension for us mere mortals.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  We went to all the classes and read all the books. And no, we weren’t prepared, had way too many misconceptions about baby behavior, and this is above all babies being different.
  - taeric 9y ago
    To strengthen your point. This is ultimately my problem with any statistically based thing. If parenthood was deterministic, then it would be easy. So, is it possible that some folks are "fully prepared" for parenthood? Almost certainly. I'd expect that the numbers work out such that people like this do exist. Parents that were fully ready for the children they got. However, this is like expecting someone can know exactly how to play poker, following the rules on when to bet and when not to, and then getting shocked to see that you still don't win every game. Statistically, you will lose games. Best you can do is have the game setup so that the losses are small and the wins are leveraged.
- jdmichal 9y ago
  This is like saying you can learn to write a perfect program, without ever writing one. Sure, while maybe theoretically possible, I'll take someone with 10 years of experience over 10 years of study everyday. Because at some point, experience is a thing; having lived through the event and having the scars. And that experience is really an irreplaceable part of being human and the learning process.
  - Toast_25 9y ago
    TIL I'm the equivalent of a badly written "Hello world".
  - la6470 9y ago
    HA HA Ha obviously you don’t have a kid .... otherwise no way you can compare the most intelligent program in the universe with the thing you call program that you type in a terminal
- purephase 9y ago
  The variables with children are nearly impossible to prepare for. No amount of preparation will do handle: 1. Development/physical disabilities, or overall health issues 2. Reaction from others, will immediate/extended family help? It's one thing to ask, another for the reality to set in. Overall support base in general. 3. Employment realities. Will a lot of employers have explicitly stated policies, the day-to-day realities often differ (and can be very different between mum(s)/dad(s)). 4. Just general variations in children/growth. I have two, one eats but doesn't sleep well, the other doesn't eat well but sleeps soundly. One enjoys time to himself, but has a temper. The other is far more social (so much social) but is very even-tempered and empathic. No amount of preparation can provide enough knowledge/experience to deal with these qualities, not withstanding 1/2/3. As others said, we read books, attended classes, looked after nieces/nephews, younger siblings, baby sat etc. We were still woefully unprepared for our own.
- ziotom78 9y ago
  I disagree. I have three kids, and before them being born I was aware that being a parent means a lot of work. But I realize now that I was not really understanding what being a father really means. It's much more laborious, complex yet satisfying and marvellous than I could ever have imagined.
- coryfklein 9y ago
  This is not practically true. Imagine if the same could be said for romantic relationships: "You can definitely be prepared for what cohabitation/marriage is like before your first relationship. It may be a lot of work, but it is not beyond comprehension." Yes, the brain is capable of comprehending life in cohabitation, as proven by the current mental state of all who are currently in the situation. Getting to that mental state without experiencing cohabitation is practically impossible. Now swap out "romantic partner" with "small person completely dependent upon you for survival for the next 18+ years".
- projectileboy 9y ago
  You're not wrong, but in most areas of life there's a reason we make a distinction between education and experience. Knowing that there will be sleepless nights with a crying baby is very, very different than surviving sleepless nights with a crying baby.
oftenwrong 9y ago
You don't need to be prepared for raising a child to know that it is difficult and that it will require major sacrifices.
Momquist 9y ago
> First, you really have no idea what you are getting into when you have a kid, no one can prepare you for it, all of what you think you know about having a baby is probably wrong (unless you’ve had one). I guess this is the result of having so few children nowadays. But not so long ago, many people got a very real and practical first experience by helping in raising their siblings. And depending on how large the family was, I assure you it could prepare you very well.
Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
> First, you really have no idea what you are getting into when you have a kid, no one can prepare you for it, all of what you think you know about having a baby is probably wrong (unless you’ve had one). I dunno...to me that's just a cop-out excuse to avoid simply admitting that you didn't do your research, or that you turned a blind eye to warning signs of what parenting is like. Do people go through life not knowing other people that have kids and not see what they go through? I don't have kids. I had a vasectomy earlier this year to make sure I don't have kids. I watched my brother have them. To call them a handful is like calling Hurricane Harvey just some light rain and winds. They require constant supervision. Can't even spend 5 minutes taking a dump or they'll scribble on the walls with a Sharpie (Yes, that happened). > (evolved cuteness, for example) I don't think babies are cute in the slightest. To some people, that makes me a monster. I like baby animals. Kittens, puppies, even baby elephants. But baby humans? Nah, I just see some creature that is probably about to decide to start screaming or shit itself.

watwut 9y ago

Do you apply same restrictions on other livestyle complains? Should people never complain about job, because they picked it up voluntary? What about social club, Facebook that read voluntary and complain about constantly and so on and so forth. What it us about parenthood that makes people think we should just present only happy side of it constantly and ever talk about side we don't like or cost us?

chriswarbo 9y ago
> What it us about parenthood that makes people think we should just present only happy side of it constantly and ever talk about side we don't like or cost us? This seems like an unfair interpretation of the above. Absolutely talk about the parts you don't like, just acknowledge that you followed a path of your own choosing (whether the consequences were expected or not). Kind of like smokers getting cancer, or needle-sharers getting HIV: the social context requires a little humility.
- watwut 9y ago
  Complain about your job or management, but acknowledge each time that you have chosen it. Complain about Facebook, but acknowl edge each time you sign up voluntary ... No one sane expect smokers sick with cancer to acknowledge they smoked each time they want talk about cancer. For christ sake, seriously. And I don't even think that having children is like sharing needles. There we are getting into category where you imply that having children is somehow morally bad (or is it having children while not being 100% happy about every aspect of child raising? )
  - nightski 9y ago
    I feel like parents are humans too and some times just need to express their emotion. It doesn't mean they regret their decision necessarily. They might just be going through a difficult day or time. We could use a little more empathy.
  - chriswarbo 9y ago
    Again, I think you're being uncharitable and attacking straw men. One doesn't need to "acknowledge... each time they want to talk" (whether it's smokers, needle-sharers, parents, or whatever). Rather, it's just a matter of how one phrases things, e.g. avoiding a sense of entitlement or being condecending. > And I don't even think that having children is like sharing needles. I think it it, in precisely the sense that I mentioned it: that it's avoidable, and may have severe negative consequences. No more, no less. > There we are getting into category where you imply that having children is somehow morally bad Not at all. I wasn't passing moral judgement, I was giving examples of situations where someone complaining about problems they're suffering may have to choose their language carefully, to avoid being judged harshly in a social context. No more, no less. > or is it having children while not being 100% happy about every aspect of child raising? Again, that's a straw man.

noxToken 9y ago

What if it something that you thought you wanted, but it turned out to be much more than you bargained for? I agree than people shouldn't act like they're making noble sacrifice (because for all intents and purposes, it was your choice), but sometimes you can only prepare so much a priori.

citizenkeen 9y ago
My wife and I spent years talking (as a married couple) before having a kid, because as stated elsewhere in the comments, it's the biggest commitment you make in your life. If you're a good person (sweeping generalization), having a kid is pretty much the only thing you can't walk away from in your life.

sidlls 9y ago

In America, at least, having children is most definitely a sacrifice. "Noble" is a subjective qualifier that's actually irrelevant. The fact is without kids the thing that fuels our economy, consumption, disappears. In many ways parents are subsidizing the childless. It isn't a bad thing to note that. Also, nobody knows the extent of what one must give up to parent. No matter how prepared a person thinks he or she is, they aren't. Having kids is very abstract right up to the point that it's not. The concrete realization starts to happen earlier and more intimately for the mother because of the gestational period, but that realization sets in eventually for both parents.

JoeAltmaier 9y ago
As my old buddy John McGinty put it "I knew having kids would be a big job; I just didn't know it would be relentless!"
gaius 9y ago
In many ways parents are subsidizing the childless What complete nonsense. There are 7Bn+ people in the world. Making more people is not a problem the human race has. Far from subsidising the child-free, you are destroying the ecosystem with your selfishness.
- dundercoder 9y ago
  Too bad your parents were so selfish.
  - gaius 9y ago
    There were only half as many people in the world when I was born!
    - simplify 9y ago
      What population number makes childbearing selfish, and why?
- 9y ago

aantix 9y ago

There are plenty of choices in life that are hard to assess until you're fully invested in them. Choosing a life partner? Choosing a stock? Scoping a programming project?? Choices in the above can seem great at first - but maybe they turn out better over time, maybe worse, probably a roller-coaster mixture of elation, unknowns, and heartache. But you'll never fully experience them until you've fully lived through them.

QAPereo 9y ago
That’s a good point, but it worries me that with just a change of nouns we could be talking about taking a speedball, taking bloody revenge, or eating rocks.

edbarbar 9y ago

You come from a very long line of parents that reproduced. It's a biological imperative to do so (i.e., we think we have a choice, but in fact have much less than we think we do). To help you understand how absurd your position is, consider if even one of the hundreds of thousands of reproduction "decisions" that are in your line had not been made, you wouldn't be here to express your point of view that it's "just a personal choice."

Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
> It's a biological imperative to do so (i.e., we think we have a choice, but in fact have much less than we think we do). I chose to get a vasectomy. I'm 35 and have never in my life desired reproducing. I do not feel that supposed biological imperative. I do feel the imperative to have sex, but having sex and producing babies are entirely different things. You can have one without the other. > To help you understand how absurd your position is, consider if even one of the hundreds of thousands of reproduction "decisions" that are in your line had not been made, you wouldn't be here to express your point of view that it's "just a personal choice." This is not a convincing argument.

hrktb 9y ago

While I agree with you, it is a personal choice, I think that’s not the framing most people are in. For instance my parents strongly believe that having kids is a duty, the more the better. They will brag about having 4 kids and they’ll tirelessly push married people to make them (the endless “is it on the way yet ?”). I also saw a lot of people of their age care a lot about the family lineage not disappearing. Some even atrocely cared about the name being carried on. Even trying to have serious discussions about it just ends in “that’s how the thing have been, that how they should be” kind of rethorics. I sympathize with couples that have their surroundings constantly repeat them they should have a baby, and wouldn’t fault them for thinking it was part of their duty to do so.

underwater 9y ago

Caring for and raising children is a sacrifice. It’s a difficult and unpaid 24/7 job that you’re locked into for 18 years. You’re constantly putting the needs of a tiny human ahead of your own. If you do a good job then they benefit far more than you do. And they won’t realise the extent of your efforts until (or unless) they have children of their own. Seeking praise is pointless. But it’s driven by the same themes the parents in the article talk about.

Sohcahtoa82 9y ago

> What I do resent is when parents try to make their struggles look like some sort of noble sacrifice they've performed for the greater good, when ultimately having children is just a personal choice they made. This really gets me. We as a society do not need more children. Popping out a baby is not an accomplishment. Hell, most babies these days are accidents. It seems strange to me that someone would choose to do something that a lot of people do accidentally, and then expect some sort of recognition for their supposed sacrifice. We as a society simply don't need more babies. The "sacrifice" is unnecessary at best, and possibly egotistical at worst.

whiddershins 9y ago
If we don’t have more children, we have population decline which comes with huge negatives. The economy contracts. Social Security implodes, etc. New generations innovate, and they take care of the aging. Having kids is actually a huge sacrifice on the part of the parents that ultimate benefits society as a whole.

rdtsc 9y ago

> What I do resent is when parents try to make their struggles look like some sort of noble sacrifice In that respect maybe it is not that different than climbing a mountain, or achieving mastery in a fencing or long distance running. Would you tell those people "I resent your complaints, you brought this upon yourself, should've stayed home and bother bother with your marathon running" say when they the talk about how hard it is and how they got injured or weather was bad.