14 ms·

If given the choice I would choose to have my daughter again I would. But even so I can definitely empathize with many of the people in this article. My wife a

• mherchel 9y ago
  No one can ever be 100% prepared for children.
  • throwaway2016a 9y ago
    Excellent point. I removed the "100%" With some reflection I don't think I was 100% ready. But I did at least make sure my finances were in order, I knew what it would do to our budget, and my wife and I had expectations set going in who would bear what responsibility. It sounds like the people in this article didn't think of that stuff. And I'm not sure I entirely blame them. We as a society make it a taboo to talk about anything but good stuff when it comes to parenting.
• dominotw 9y ago
  I live an puerto rican neighboorhood in chicago. People live here in combined family structure with many generations living in the same building. I've become acquaintances with many of them and i've noticed that parenthood is much less of a burden for them since they have extended family to support them. Not just a matter of practical convenience but the immense moral and pshyclogical support you get from living next to your parents, cousins is immeasurable. I always see kids playing outside and everyone keeps an eye on them, you are not dealing with your kids 24x7 nonstop. I am convinced that if you are going to reproduce this is the way to do it. Even though I make significantly more money than them I am jealous of their lifestyle :D . These parents take vacations without their kids, which I know many of valley friends think is impossible.
  • scottishfiction 9y ago
    This is a major factor. I have a 2-year old girl with another baby imminent. I have 6 households of my family all within a 20 minute drive. Like you say, aside from the practical benefits and savings on childcare, clothing etc., the psychological benefit of knowing we have that support is immeasurable. Given the impending arrival of my second child, I find myself wondering about those with less support. What does a pregnant single mother of one do when she goes in to labor? Where does her child go? In to state care?? I have great respect for parents with less support than I have.
    • spookthesunset 9y ago
      > What does a pregnant single mother of one do when she goes in to labor? Where does her child go? In to state care?? Crazy to think, isn't it? It is hard enough during those first few years for a couple with a stay-at-home parent. I can only imagine how hard it is for a single parent who has to not only pay the bills, but take care of somebody who needs an adult 24/7. I don't think people can begin to fully appreciate this stuff until after they have kids.
  • throwaway2016a 9y ago
    > I am convinced that if you are going to reproduce this is the way to do it. I think that sounds awesome. Realistically not everyone has those choices though, and unfortunately I don't see that changing any time soon. My family for example, is spread out across 5 states. My nearest relative is 150 miles.
• LaurentVB 9y ago
  I try to always reply honestly when talking about having kids. And I'm lucky to only have friends who do the same. Usually I say something like "It's really hard, but it's so awesome at the same time that you forget how hard it is all the time. In the end, you feel like it's worth it." I confess I wasn't that positive when I was totally sleep deprived. I also have the impression that no two situations are the same... Some parents have it very tough while some others have quite an easy time with their kids. You gotta have some luck...
• SmellTheGlove 9y ago
  I totally agree with you. I have a 5 year old - I love her, she's great, and if I got to choose again I'd do it all over. But the first year is the hardest I ever worked. We knew it would be a lot of work, but nobody ever talks about just how much work it is with any kind of detail. Parenting has a lot of good, but the bad parts really do suck - lack of sleep, running to the doctor, the ER trips, etc. The story I usually tell my friends who are just becoming parents is about this one night the first month, we were up constantly most nights. I don't remember on this particular night what I was up doing, it's not important, but what I do remember is being in the bathroom, sitting on the can, and looking down and seeing the floor move under my feet. Vividly. However, that memory sticks as a turning point for me - I didn't have a whole lot of self doubt about doing a good job as a dad after getting through sleep deprivation induced hallucinations!
  • soofaloofa 9y ago
    Parents do talk about how hard it is – but if you do not have kids it’s hard to fully comprehend the message.
    • ASalazarMX 9y ago
      In my experience, they only repost pictures on Facebook about how motherly love is unconditional and infinite.
  • nothrabannosir 9y ago
    > but nobody ever talks about just how much work it is with any kind of detail. I don’t think I’ve ever heard young parents talk about anything else. If I am to believe the stories, until the age of 3 it’s not blood running through a child’s veins, but pure high-grade Colombian roast. To the point where I’m considering sardonically suggesting we suspend driver’s licenses for new parents.
    • lostlogin 9y ago
      It’s not a bad idea. Sleep deprivation combined with distraction is terrible. Try driving safely with them choking on something or screaming about something. It’s not good. Also, any excuse to avoid dealing with car seats.
• stdbrouw 9y ago
  All in favor of being open about the ups and downs of parenthood. What I do resent is when parents try to make their struggles look like some sort of noble sacrifice they've performed for the greater good, when ultimately having children is just a personal choice they made. I can sympathize up to a point, but when parents complain that they hate their lifestyle (or lack of one) now that they have children, it's hard not to think "well, gee, maybe should've considered that before making such a momentous decision."
  • seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    That’s a bit harsh. First, you really have no idea what you are getting into when you have a kid, no one can prepare you for it, all of what you think you know about having a baby is probably wrong (unless you’ve had one). We are also biologically inclined to ignore thinking about what kind of pain we are in for and just be...excited. Otherwise, I doubt anyone would have kids and humanity would just go instinct. Likewise, once the kid has arrived, nature pulls more tricks to keep us parents motivated (evolved cuteness, for example).
    • iopuy 9y ago
      You can definitely be prepared for what it is like to have a child before having one. Everything you know is not wrong. Yes, it may be a lot of work but it is not beyond the realm of comprehension for us mere mortals.
      • seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        We went to all the classes and read all the books. And no, we weren’t prepared, had way too many misconceptions about baby behavior, and this is above all babies being different.
        • taeric 9y ago
          To strengthen your point. This is ultimately my problem with any statistically based thing. If parenthood was deterministic, then it would be easy. So, is it possible that some folks are "fully prepared" for parenthood? Almost certainly. I'd expect that the numbers work out such that people like this do exist. Parents that were fully ready for the children they got. However, this is like expecting someone can know exactly how to play poker, following the rules on when to bet and when not to, and then getting shocked to see that you still don't win every game. Statistically, you will lose games. Best you can do is have the game setup so that the losses are small and the wins are leveraged.
• gpderetta 9y ago
  We choose to to have a child not because they are easy, but because they are hard.
  • brango 9y ago
    We choose not to have a child because they are not easy, but because they are hard.
  • iopuy 9y ago
    This comment is a spot on example of the behavior stdbrouw was advocating against further up in the thread. The nobility of having a child should not be factored into the decision. There is no "greater good" agenda pushing people to reproduce. It is a personal decision that each and every one of us need to come to terms with.
• andrewstuart2 9y ago
  I try to give both sides. It's easily the hardest thing I've ever done by a good margin. You pour work in and potentially don't see anything for it, or at least very little, for years. It's a huge lesson in selflessness and humility. It's required a lot of changes, and a lot of opportunities have come off the table, or had their overall "cost" adjusted (e.g. moving cross-country is still possible, but we'd think about it a lot more), because I want to make sure I invest appropriately in my family. And simultaneously, it's just about the most rewarding thing I've ever done. Watching them grow, seeing some of the hard work finally paying off, having little conversations with my 4-year-old, glimpsing the kind of guy he might grow up to be. There's this amazing bond that is really hard to describe. Whoever you are, you deserve to know the truth on both sides. Depending on your values, kids might be easily worth it (for us, they are), or you might want to wait, or you might decide that it's not the right choice for you.
  • matthoiland 9y ago
    > It's a huge lesson in selflessness and humility. We can all use more of these lessons.
  • aetherson 9y ago
    Fatherhood has made me keenly aware that there isn't just one sort of undifferentiated pile of warm emotion that we can call "happiness." I can feel exhausted and wrung out when my daughter responds to my attempts to make her life better and more comfortable by screaming at me and throwing things. I can feel angry when she does things that she knows are naughty and ignores our rules. And at the same time I can feel proud of her and connected to her and love her and be in awe of her learning and feel incredible when she tells me she loves me. And I don't think it makes sense to sort of try to treat those like they are just positive and negative numbers and say what does it sum up to, positive or negative? They coexist, they don't cancel each other out. No matter how much I feel great when she tells me she loves me, that doesn't make it less exhausting to worry about the absurd hoops that I have to jump through for an education for her. And no matter how upsetting it is to have someone kick you when you try to help her feel safe after a nightmare, that doesn't make me feel any less deep satisfaction that someone that I help create and teach will (hopefully) survive me and always be part of my life.
• jasonmaydie 9y ago
  > "It's the most work we have ever done in our life" (and I build startups!)... "We got no sleep last night, she woke up at 2 AM and wouldn't go back to bed." what do people expect when they have babies? that it will take care of itself? There's a thing called Postpartum Depression that is real and usually occurs right after having kids. Raising babies are hard but once they become toddlers it gets far easier. I don't have sympathy for anyone who complains about not getting enough sleep in the first 6 months. I was watching The Walking Dead at 1am in the mornings because baby woke up and had to feed him till he slept again. Oh and then right to work at 8am for almost 2 months. He's 3 now and now attempting to wipe his own ass for a change. You're a parent, deal with that responsibility.
  • monktastic1 9y ago
    I don't understand the "no sympathy" part. When a friend runs a marathon, yes, they expected to be totally out of breath and have jellified legs, but I still cheer them on and help them recover and celebrate. I don't think I'd be a very good friend if during the race I were saying (or even thinking) "I have no sympathy for you, what did you expect?" -- even if they're complaining. To me, this seems related to the purpose of the article: being a parent requires a stiff upper lip according to our culture, unlike most everything else in life.
    • ankjl 9y ago
      I think the difference in perception, as compared to running a marathon, is that parenting is more an equivalent of entering a marathon where you have no option to stop, regardless of circumstances, and your performance has a massive impact on the life of another person. If that were the way marathons worked, I think the reaction of the audience to someone's struggle to finish the race would be different.
      • monktastic1 9y ago
        > If that were the way marathons worked, I think the reaction of the audience to someone's struggle to finish the race would be different. Indeed, I would expect more support instead of less. "You should have known" may be accurate but it feels unhelpful.
• mattgreenrocks 9y ago
  > People who plan to have children were telling us "all I ever here is the bad stuff" That's how I felt. Now I see that parents either sugarcoat everything about parenting, or are eager to relay their current source of misery: "you think it's hard now? Just you wait until they are 2/3/5/10/12/16/18!" The truth is every stage of child development has its own unique joys and challenges, with previous challenges being replaced with new ones before you even get a chance to feel a sense of relief. But, if you aren't a parent, you don't really know this, and probably ask questions that bring out the sucky parts of parenting, and remember other people's negative experiences more. Now that I think about it, it seems difficult to really convey the full emotional experience of being a parent. Only seeing parts of it makes it easy to get an overly optimistic/pessimistic view of things.
• diyseguy 9y ago
  The first few times I casually mentioned I had never been interested in having kids, the reactions were unreasonably vitriolic: "Well, you aren't a good person and should stay away from them then!!" and "You look like the sort of person who doesn't want kids", etc. I eventually learned not to bring it up. Thankfully I was never forced into it by marriage or otherwise. People who want children can have them and people who don't want them should not be shamed into it. Kids would be better off being genuinely wanted. I personally was an accident kid, born before abortion was legalized and there was always a subtextual theme of being unwanted in my childhood. I decided early that I would not have a kid unless I really wanted one. And I never did have the desire. I'm glad I stuck to it and didn't give in to the immense peer pressure.
  • goatlover 9y ago
    More people should feel free not to have kids. There's enough humans as it is. We don't need everyone reproducing. Only the people who really want to and can support their offspring properly should do it. It's dumb to have a social pressure to reproduce when there are 7.5 billion of us.
    • diyseguy 9y ago
      I would draw the line at "really want to". An argument could be made that only rich people should have children and that would be fascist in the other direction.
      • syrak 9y ago
        What's fascist is to forbid people from having children based on arbitrary criteria, which is just one obvious but wrong way to address an otherwise reasonable idea, that not everyone is fit for parenting. It doesn't mean the idea itself should be discarded. Here's another solution that doesn't trample on anyone's freedom: better informing people about the costs and benefits of parenthood. That would go a long way to prevent people from having children without the means to raise them.
      • scotty79 9y ago
• anon1979 9y ago
  I have three boys, aged 6 months to 4 years. It is extremely hard work and a major life change, especially if you get started in your 30s (as I did) after having already established yourself financially and professionally (yes, the resources makes it easier, but you've also had the time and resources to habituate yourself to a comfortable and self-oriented life, and you're not quite as robust as you were in your 20s, when an all-nighter was not a big deal). It also puts strains on even strong marriages. But it has lots of irreplaceable moments and provides a general sense of satisfaction for well-spent effort. I echo several comments on the joy of seeing my boys develop as people, learn, ask questions, and explore. Even the squabbles bring back fond memories of my own childhood tussles with my two brothers, and how those interactions are part of children learning how to relate to other people. Aside from all that, once they are born (and beforehand for my wife and me), the profound sense of duty to care for them compels putting any thoughts of self aside. We alone chose to create them and we alone are responsible for raising them to be good adults. I'm not going to shirk such an important duty in life. Such a sense of duty is a cultural norm encouraged by community moral condemnation of those who fail to adhere. I reluctantly support such condemnation as essential for the successful continuation of our civilization. As such, I say that parents who shirk their duties are committing a moral wrong and should be criticized. The article doesn't come out and say it, but it seems to suggest that this is widespread. I don't think that is true. Watching my parents' generation embrace grand-parenthood, and the explicit statements that many of them make about the importance of family, convinces me that the vast majority push through the tough parts and find the overall experience to be the most important thing they did in life. Final point, and one that I am cautious to make for not wanting to offend anyone needlessly: I know plenty of singles and couples who are childless, and several that are childless by choice. Suffice it to say that my anecdotal view is that sadness, eccentricity, and empty hedonism seem to develop over time in these couples, especially in the women.
  • osullivj 9y ago
    Spot on with the final point. I have 3, now aged 22, 19 & 16. I like to joke that I have parentdar: it's like gaydar, I just know if someone is a parent or not without them telling me. There's a selfcentredness about the childless that gives itself away in a thousand minor tells. It's more pronounced in women than men.
• Callmenorm 9y ago
  My brothers and I (we all have quite 3-4 kids) joke that kids ruin everything. It's hyperbole, but feels true a lot of the time. They are also fun, goofy, beautiful, and potential life long friends. It's also hard to see that sometimes when you're kids are screaming at 2am and you're seeing a shitty day at work or caring for kids ahead of you.
  • baldfat 9y ago
    Here this will make you feel okay about the kids ruining things. This is the best song ever about parenting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LrZ01A6Q_M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LrZ01A6Q_M
• jasonkostempski 9y ago
  How do you answer when someone asks if you're enjoying building a startup?
• pascalxus 9y ago
  When asked, I always give a honest and unbiased response. I tell my friends and family the truth: it's hard work, you won't get much sleep in the 6 months and the nonstop crying is a huge huge source of pain. but, I talk about the good stuff too. Kids says the cutest things. And, in my opinion, parenthood gets easier every year because the child's behavior improves every year.
• foobarian 9y ago
  My little one makes me so deeply happy that none of the downsides are really that bad, but I tend to overplay them because I feel like doing otherwise would be gloating. I noticed a similar pattern with other parents I talk with. They all have complaints, they got no sleep last night, child cried all morning, wouldn't eat dinner, etc. but behind all those words you can see a glimmer of something in their face that tells me they are downplaying as well.
  • cvsh 9y ago
    >I tend to overplay them because I feel like doing otherwise would be gloating. A lot of life events are the same way. When someone asks how work's going, I don't want to be honest and talk about how goddamn happy I am seeing that fat number land in my Mint sidebar every two weeks since that promotion. So I say "It's hard work!" instead.
• microcolonel 9y ago
  > But at the same time I think this whole "you're not allowed to say anything bad about parenthood" is unhealthy. I tend to agree, but I think the limits apply to voicing regret for having specific children, especially in front of said children. I think about the most sickening thing that anyone has ever described to me is meeting somebody who, in front of his own (tween and teenage) children, referred to them as basically a regrettable burden foisted upon him by his wife. It's bad enough suspecting that your parents don't care for you, I'll bet it hurts more to know for certain. Still, it is nuts to receive backlash for saying that it's incredibly hard work. Of course it's hard work!
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• amorphid 9y ago
  When you're up to your neck in hard work, it's kind of hard to sugarcoat how damn tired you are. Anyone who "only here's the bad stuff" sounds like someone who isn't prepared to work harder than they've ever worked before.
• avip 9y ago
  Worth noting that extreme difficulty of being new parents is in large thanks to the weird NA/EU habit of raising kids without extended family. I think that's a relatively novel "disruption" of how kids should grow - and a fairly failed one.
• e40 9y ago
  Even people that think they want children are sometimes unprepared. My son is now 17, but when he was in grade school he had a friend that was always in trouble and generally a very unhappy kid. I understood perfectly when I hung out with him and his friend at the park, when his mother was around. She was well meaning, but one of the worst parents I have ever witnessed. She constantly threatened him with punishment, but it was clear she never followed through with it, so the kid basically completely ignore her. At one point, she turned to me and commented how good my son was and how she really just didn't know what to do. I firmed bit my tongue and said nothing. Those conversations never go well. As a parent, I was appalled how much bad advice there is out there. Some was from books and some from other parents or family. It seems to be that every human (at least here in the US) starts from scratch and uses their gut to guide them in parenting. Most people don't learn much from previous generations, and that seems crazy to me. If I were to do it over again, I would definitely do better the 2nd time around, but I have no interest. Raising my son (with my wife) was the hardest thing I've ever done, and I'm enjoying life now that he's 17.