6 ms·

There is no denying the fact that it's hard to get permanent residency in the US. But immigration should be a two way street, if people decide to stay in the US

There is no denying the fact that it's hard to get permanent residency in the US. But immigration should be a two way street, if people decide to stay in the US they should try to assimilate. Is there a "bamboo celing", yes there is; so is a "curry ceiling" and what have you "ceiling". But if you do not push yourself to better your communication skills and other relevant skills required to be successful, you can't expect to shatter this ceiling. This was true for other immigrants too (18th/19th century Irish, Italian etc.) It's hard not to overlook the fact that a lot of would be immigrants make no effort to assimilate and cluster themselves off from mainstream society; especially in a immigrant welcoming area like Silicon Valley. I bet if you were to go to China/India etc., no one's going to go out of their way to accept you. (BTW, I'm an Indian citizen on H1B and I'm saying this, you can downvote my post but it doesn't change ground realities)

Aloha 9y ago
The melting pot is what makes America strong. We are stronger together than any of our constituent parts. If you wish to become an American, I wish you all the best of luck (sorry for all the paperwork) and welcome you to our country with open arms.
- badpun 9y ago
  > The melting pot is what makes America strong. We are stronger together than any of our constituent parts. I am not American, so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the melting pot metaphor about taking people from different cultures and backgrounds and "melting" them together into one much more homogenous culture?
  - Aloha 9y ago
    Yes - its the Borg concept of multiculturalism - people come here, add their cultural distinctiveness to the whole and become an American by adopting a certain set of ideals.
    - Nearei 9y ago
      In theory, but I'm not actually too sure multiculturalism is actually the case for America, at least not from my personal experience. The American melting pot rejects plenty of aspects from other culture, and does more along the lines of "this is how we do things in USA, take it or leave it" rather than assimilation (at least from what I've observed in the recent decade). From elementary schools to the workplace environment, things have only been getting harder for immigrants, to the point where I'm not sure if USA can claim to be multicultural by strict terms. By contrast, a mosaic setup like in Canada, where every cultural aspect brought into the country are welcomed and celebrated, is much more comforting to immigrants. Because multiculturalism is actually incorporated into the Canadian federal policy thanks to, surprise surprise, the previous Trudeau.
      - Aloha 9y ago
        like I said, the Borg concept of multiculturalism we add elements from our immigrant cultures, food, some cultural customs, they are woven in like thread into a tapestry, but the whole remains American - no one who came here, even the folks from the UK had their culture in total preserved, instead they add some of their distinctiveness to the whole.
      - jimmywanger 9y ago
        > By contrast, a mosaic setup like in Canada, where every cultural aspect brought into the country are welcomed and celebrated, is much more comforting to immigrants. The point of moving to a country is to make a better life for yourself. We are not trying to comfort immigrants, we are trying to make countries stronger. There are plenty of abhorrent views held by people out there in the world. What part of the mosaic should that be part of?
- turkishgetup 9y ago
  America has never been a melting pot - more like a salad palette, with clear boundaries between constituent parts. Melting pot is but a nice-sounding rhetoric. Racial bias aside, people usually prefer to live closer to their own kind. For minorities, this is usually because of better access to their ethnic groceries and cultural engagements. I do not disagree with general idea in your post - I would just change the first sentence to "The salad palette is what makes America strong."
ryanianian 9y ago
> if people decide to stay in the US they should try to assimilate This is problematic. If you're a hard-working taxpayer who doesn't receive subsidies or cause a net negative on the economy, why do I care if you "assimilate" to my culture? In fact I'd rather you keep your culture proud and strong since it will make you happier and more productive. You may even encourage your hard-working friends to join you and make the economy even better. ("you" and "me" above are just rhetorical here...) Instead of "assimilate", you can reframe your thinking to "be overall positive to the economy." I think that's what you intend but I could be wrong.
- ashwinaj 9y ago
  When I mentioned assimilation, I meant a certain acceptance of the American culture. I did not in any way mean complete abandonment of your "native" culture. One of the most obvious things I saw different about Americans is their sense of individuality; you'd see a super conservative person living next to a hippie in peaceful co-existence (although these days the media would make you think otherwise). As an example, I'm mostly vegetarian (for staying healthy, I'm atheist) but I do like the occasional steak. If I say to a fellow Indian (or naturalized Indian American) that I eat beef, I will be mostly ostracized (I'm assuming that this person is Hindu, which may not be the case). I personally don't care what anyone thinks about my personal choices, but this is an example of people not assimilating and accepting what is generally accepted American trait of "individuality".
  - ta123456111 9y ago
    > As an example, I'm mostly vegetarian (for staying healthy, I'm atheist). That's a weird qualification to me, as if most other vegetarians do it because of their religion. I don't have any data/stats, but environmental destruction based on our farming practices, and cruelty to animals, both factor a lot higher than religion (has been my experience anyway, but it might be an interesting difference in the US given the deeply entrenched state of religion there).
    - ashwinaj 9y ago
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Indians do much better in SV/tech senior management positions than Chinese. Also, what does assimilate mean in an American context? It’s not like America really has a strong well defined culture in the first place, it’s been like ever since the country was founded.
- ryanianian 9y ago
  > Indians do much better in SV/tech senior management positions than Chinese. Please be careful about making generalizations based on race - they're generally incorrect/unprovable and rarely provide any value to a conversation. You can rephrase this to be "I've seen more Indians do better..."
  - lurr 9y ago
    Actually it's pretty easily provable, you just need diversity numbers. Doesn't explain the "why" though.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Huh? This is quantifiable. It’s no big mystery to anyone who works in tech, and is not saying anything about abilities, just outcomes.
    - ryanianian 9y ago
      I've experienced the opposite in general, but I've seen some huge outliers in both directions on both sides.
  - wenc 9y ago
    It's not a generalization, there's public data for this. Just take a sample of the top N SV companies, go to their Management/Staff page, and do a count. (note, we're talking senior management, not middle management) I do have some ideas about why, but it requires going into some sociological analysis. (note: I'm a minority so I speak from that experience).
  - dlwdlw 9y ago
neosat 9y ago
While I agree with both of your points individually; I fail to see how your two points are connected. The complicated process of getting a permanent residency has nothing to do with your willingness to assimilate or degree of assimilation. What exactly is the connection you are implying between the two?
- ashwinaj 9y ago
  Yes they aren't, and I'm arguing is that it should. My point was specifically towards "For MS and PhD students staple their passports with a green card immediately", although the op did not use this phrase it is somewhat implied that someone who has a graduate degree should be allowed to stay and work indefinitely.
lurr 9y ago
> But immigration should be a two way street Why? > if people decide to stay in the US they should try to assimilate oh I see. Apparently hte people who come to the US for school and try to live and work here right alongside you and me (white guy) aren't trying hard enough to assimilate. > BTW, I'm an Indian citizen on H1B and I'm saying this So? You're criticizing chinese people pretty explicitly. Don't try to hide behind your race.
- ashwinaj 9y ago
  > So? You're criticizing chinese people pretty explicitly. Don't try to hide behind your race. No it's true for Indians too. I said "It's hard not to overlook the fact that a lot of would be immigrants make no effort to assimilate" which includes Indians too.
sangnoir 9y ago
> This was true for other immigrants too (18th/19th century Irish, Italian etc.) Are you suggesting that the Irish and Italians brushed up their communication skills in order to succeed? The Irish and Italian immigrants weren't considered white initially - I can't say if there is a causal relationship between their success and this perception changing.
- ashwinaj 9y ago
  No. I used them as an example to highlight them as a group who had to assimilate in a mainly protestant country.
throwaway37383 9y ago
Hear, hear. The nausea inducing cries of a coconut on merits the of being white, you hear. Sarcasm aside, such creatures, deserving of great disdain, wouldn't exist were it not the case that the occident were not quite as wealthy. Indeed the parent's recipe is advisable, if wealth is what you're after in the short run. Broadly speaking this has been the policy of the Indian state, the follies and resulatant inanities of which are available to everyone with an eye for them. We know how it will be in the long run.
- ashwinaj 9y ago
  Cool so you had to make a "throwaway" account to make your point, very brave. If you see my other posts I am not sucking up to white people or any other people. I call a spade a spade.

Aloha 9y ago

The melting pot is what makes America strong. We are stronger together than any of our constituent parts. If you wish to become an American, I wish you all the best of luck (sorry for all the paperwork) and welcome you to our country with open arms.

badpun 9y ago
> The melting pot is what makes America strong. We are stronger together than any of our constituent parts. I am not American, so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the melting pot metaphor about taking people from different cultures and backgrounds and "melting" them together into one much more homogenous culture?
- Aloha 9y ago
  Yes - its the Borg concept of multiculturalism - people come here, add their cultural distinctiveness to the whole and become an American by adopting a certain set of ideals.
  - Nearei 9y ago
    In theory, but I'm not actually too sure multiculturalism is actually the case for America, at least not from my personal experience. The American melting pot rejects plenty of aspects from other culture, and does more along the lines of "this is how we do things in USA, take it or leave it" rather than assimilation (at least from what I've observed in the recent decade). From elementary schools to the workplace environment, things have only been getting harder for immigrants, to the point where I'm not sure if USA can claim to be multicultural by strict terms. By contrast, a mosaic setup like in Canada, where every cultural aspect brought into the country are welcomed and celebrated, is much more comforting to immigrants. Because multiculturalism is actually incorporated into the Canadian federal policy thanks to, surprise surprise, the previous Trudeau.
    - Aloha 9y ago
      like I said, the Borg concept of multiculturalism we add elements from our immigrant cultures, food, some cultural customs, they are woven in like thread into a tapestry, but the whole remains American - no one who came here, even the folks from the UK had their culture in total preserved, instead they add some of their distinctiveness to the whole.
    - jimmywanger 9y ago
      > By contrast, a mosaic setup like in Canada, where every cultural aspect brought into the country are welcomed and celebrated, is much more comforting to immigrants. The point of moving to a country is to make a better life for yourself. We are not trying to comfort immigrants, we are trying to make countries stronger. There are plenty of abhorrent views held by people out there in the world. What part of the mosaic should that be part of?
turkishgetup 9y ago
America has never been a melting pot - more like a salad palette, with clear boundaries between constituent parts. Melting pot is but a nice-sounding rhetoric. Racial bias aside, people usually prefer to live closer to their own kind. For minorities, this is usually because of better access to their ethnic groceries and cultural engagements. I do not disagree with general idea in your post - I would just change the first sentence to "The salad palette is what makes America strong."

ryanianian 9y ago

> if people decide to stay in the US they should try to assimilate This is problematic. If you're a hard-working taxpayer who doesn't receive subsidies or cause a net negative on the economy, why do I care if you "assimilate" to my culture? In fact I'd rather you keep your culture proud and strong since it will make you happier and more productive. You may even encourage your hard-working friends to join you and make the economy even better. ("you" and "me" above are just rhetorical here...) Instead of "assimilate", you can reframe your thinking to "be overall positive to the economy." I think that's what you intend but I could be wrong.

ashwinaj 9y ago
When I mentioned assimilation, I meant a certain acceptance of the American culture. I did not in any way mean complete abandonment of your "native" culture. One of the most obvious things I saw different about Americans is their sense of individuality; you'd see a super conservative person living next to a hippie in peaceful co-existence (although these days the media would make you think otherwise). As an example, I'm mostly vegetarian (for staying healthy, I'm atheist) but I do like the occasional steak. If I say to a fellow Indian (or naturalized Indian American) that I eat beef, I will be mostly ostracized (I'm assuming that this person is Hindu, which may not be the case). I personally don't care what anyone thinks about my personal choices, but this is an example of people not assimilating and accepting what is generally accepted American trait of "individuality".
- ta123456111 9y ago
  > As an example, I'm mostly vegetarian (for staying healthy, I'm atheist). That's a weird qualification to me, as if most other vegetarians do it because of their religion. I don't have any data/stats, but environmental destruction based on our farming practices, and cruelty to animals, both factor a lot higher than religion (has been my experience anyway, but it might be an interesting difference in the US given the deeply entrenched state of religion there).
  - ashwinaj 9y ago

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

Indians do much better in SV/tech senior management positions than Chinese. Also, what does assimilate mean in an American context? It’s not like America really has a strong well defined culture in the first place, it’s been like ever since the country was founded.

ryanianian 9y ago
> Indians do much better in SV/tech senior management positions than Chinese. Please be careful about making generalizations based on race - they're generally incorrect/unprovable and rarely provide any value to a conversation. You can rephrase this to be "I've seen more Indians do better..."
- lurr 9y ago
  Actually it's pretty easily provable, you just need diversity numbers. Doesn't explain the "why" though.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Huh? This is quantifiable. It’s no big mystery to anyone who works in tech, and is not saying anything about abilities, just outcomes.
  - ryanianian 9y ago
    I've experienced the opposite in general, but I've seen some huge outliers in both directions on both sides.
- wenc 9y ago
  It's not a generalization, there's public data for this. Just take a sample of the top N SV companies, go to their Management/Staff page, and do a count. (note, we're talking senior management, not middle management) I do have some ideas about why, but it requires going into some sociological analysis. (note: I'm a minority so I speak from that experience).
- dlwdlw 9y ago

neosat 9y ago

While I agree with both of your points individually; I fail to see how your two points are connected. The complicated process of getting a permanent residency has nothing to do with your willingness to assimilate or degree of assimilation. What exactly is the connection you are implying between the two?

ashwinaj 9y ago
Yes they aren't, and I'm arguing is that it should. My point was specifically towards "For MS and PhD students staple their passports with a green card immediately", although the op did not use this phrase it is somewhat implied that someone who has a graduate degree should be allowed to stay and work indefinitely.

lurr 9y ago

> But immigration should be a two way street Why? > if people decide to stay in the US they should try to assimilate oh I see. Apparently hte people who come to the US for school and try to live and work here right alongside you and me (white guy) aren't trying hard enough to assimilate. > BTW, I'm an Indian citizen on H1B and I'm saying this So? You're criticizing chinese people pretty explicitly. Don't try to hide behind your race.

ashwinaj 9y ago
> So? You're criticizing chinese people pretty explicitly. Don't try to hide behind your race. No it's true for Indians too. I said "It's hard not to overlook the fact that a lot of would be immigrants make no effort to assimilate" which includes Indians too.

sangnoir 9y ago

> This was true for other immigrants too (18th/19th century Irish, Italian etc.) Are you suggesting that the Irish and Italians brushed up their communication skills in order to succeed? The Irish and Italian immigrants weren't considered white initially - I can't say if there is a causal relationship between their success and this perception changing.

ashwinaj 9y ago
No. I used them as an example to highlight them as a group who had to assimilate in a mainly protestant country.

throwaway37383 9y ago

Hear, hear. The nausea inducing cries of a coconut on merits the of being white, you hear. Sarcasm aside, such creatures, deserving of great disdain, wouldn't exist were it not the case that the occident were not quite as wealthy. Indeed the parent's recipe is advisable, if wealth is what you're after in the short run. Broadly speaking this has been the policy of the Indian state, the follies and resulatant inanities of which are available to everyone with an eye for them. We know how it will be in the long run.

ashwinaj 9y ago
Cool so you had to make a "throwaway" account to make your point, very brave. If you see my other posts I am not sucking up to white people or any other people. I call a spade a spade.