8 ms·

I am a Norwegian in Silicon Valley that have spent most of my career with Chinese colleagues, both in academia and industry, and my anecdata seem to indicate th

I am a Norwegian in Silicon Valley that have spent most of my career with Chinese colleagues, both in academia and industry, and my anecdata seem to indicate that my highly talented China-born colleagues are sadly leaving because; - China has great opportunities for riches - Getting a US VISA is hard and painful when you come from a populous country like China or India - My China-born colleagues seem to in general be more conservative, and Silicon Valley has become violently intolerant of anyone that holds an opinion different than the predominant view Only the first reason is somewhat objective, while the two others cause stress in their daily life as their ability to provide can at any time be removed due to what is perceived as arbitrary reasons. Everything being equal, many of them have told me they would prefer the less crowded Silicon Valley.

cwzwarich 9y ago
> Getting a US VISA is hard and painful when you come from a populous country like China or India Getting a green card is harder if you were born in China or India, not getting a visa, but once you've been on an H-1B for a sufficiently long period of time, you can only keep that status with a pending green card application. Switching employers at this stage is more difficult.
- golem14 9y ago
  Aren't there rumblings that the current administration wants to actually remove the opportunity to indefinitely linger on H1B/advance parole status while the green card application is pending ? Sounds credible as far as current administration goes, and would certainly be a huge long term problem for the US, but there we are.
  - cwzwarich 9y ago
    There was a rumored proposal, but USCIS announced the other day that it was unlikely to happen, and also mentioned that if it did happen it would not apply to existing AC-21 holders, as their employers could file extensions in one year increments. The DHS has said that they want to propose the end of the H-4 visa giving work authorization for spouses of H-1B holders.
drb91 9y ago
> My China-born colleagues seem to in general be more conservative, and Silicon Valley has become violently intolerant of anyone that holds an opinion different than the predominant view What exactly does this mean? Are they evangelical baptists, libertarians, reactionaries, nationalist, homophobic, misogynist, racist, anti-atheist, pro family-values, pro corporation, skeptical of global warming, pro fossil fuel energy, war hawks, or something else altogether? It's really quite difficult to interpret your statement as anything meaningful without clarification, and there are ten thousand different ways to be "conservative". And to be clear, "conservative" is anything but a dirty word or something I'm trying to critique here--just a context-sensitive one. It could be a pejorative or a value. Otherwise it doesn't add much to the conversation--it is itself a reactionary statement.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Conservative socially does not have much to do with religion. Chinese will often claim they “aren’t as open as” westerners for some definition of open. Most of my Chinese gay colleagues in china were in the closet, there was just no way you could be open about that, even in an american company. Otherwise, the cultures are very different, which can’t be discounted. Oddly enough, many things in china would be considered too open for Americans, so it isn’t clear cut at all.
  - drb91 9y ago
    Right, making it doubly confusing to use a culturaly bound one dimensional adjective to describe differences between people of wholly different cultures. It’s not a meaningful comparison. Edit: I suppose my confusion is incorrect...?
  - lurr 9y ago
    > Conservative socially does not have much to do with religion It does in the US. Absolutely does.
    - gozur88 9y ago
      It does in certain regions. In others, not so much.
lurr 9y ago
> sadly leaving Why is it sad? They get to go back home instead of on the other side of the planet from the place they grew up, and they don't have to give up nearly as much to do it. Good for them. > My China-born colleagues seem to in general be more conservative, and Silicon Valley has become violently intolerant of anyone that holds an opinion different than the predominant view Had to get that "oppressed conservatives" narrative in. I keep asking what views people are so intolerant of. Tend not to get real answers.
- javajosh 9y ago
  These are both weasel words and willfully ignorant of what the OP is talking about. You don't have to agree with conservative views to understand that certain views are not tolerated (e.g. women are worse workers, etc.)
- gozur88 9y ago
  >Had to get that "oppressed conservatives" narrative in. >I keep asking what views people are so intolerant of. Tend not to get real answers. Because this is HN and people are less willing to let you derail the conversation with politics.
- ogre_magi 9y ago
  For your last point, I think you don't get "real" answers because there are totally different worldviews and perspectives clashing. You'd probably feel that any earnest response was a person just trying justify some "-ism" that you think is worthy of ostracism. They wouldn't see it that way.
- asabjorn 9y ago
  As I said below I do not find it useful at all to try to list out the views that are not tolerated as there is no way that you can reduce a huge population groups opinions into neat categories, people can hold both conservative and liberal opinions as well as everything outside those at the same time, and I believe doing so would distract from the real conversation which is the intolerance. There are also plenty of leaked examples of how people with other opinions are treated to even shock me that generally agree with the predominant view, and I encourage you to look it up and form your own opinion. > Why is it sad? They get to go back home instead of on the other side of the planet from the place they grew up, and they don't have to give up nearly as much to do it. As an immigrant myself I can tell you that leaving my network and life here would come at a huge cost. There are benefits of cause, especially since my home country Norway has a much better social support system. In my opinion nobody should have to do this out of fear, and that I perceive fear to sometimes be a contributing reason is what I find sad. Including the fact that I loose great colleauges that I love working with.
gozur88 9y ago
>Getting a US VISA is hard and painful when you come from a populous country like China or India Which is funny in the specific context of Chinese people, since you essentially have to get an internal visa to move to the city from the countryside, and it's difficult to get.
xster 9y ago
I'd add 2 more anecdata points - The strong sense of rapid progress, culturally, technologically, socially, infrastructure-wise. Everything transforms every few years and there's still the sense that everyone's hard work goes towards making the pie bigger instead of fighting each other for pieces of the pie. In relative terms, there's more stagnation in the Silicon Valley. I don't know when's the last time there has been a brand new shiny mall built. POS are still routinely being plugged with a card so you revert to using a magnetic stripe. NIMBY movements are still trying to revert society to an agrarian state. - The comfort feeling that your hard work translates to social approval and your personal wealth vs the feeling at least in the Silicon Valley that your hard work translates to your landlord's wealth and increased vilification of the tech working class.
- asabjorn 9y ago
  Yes, I think supply constraints on housing has in the last three decades only made the Bay Area worse. I donate to YIMBY and any other organization that fight to increase housing supply. I am tired of people claiming to fight for the poor and working class by fighting market rate housing and offices. Their position is objectively wrong and they are at this point inarguably causing damage to vast groups lives.

cwzwarich 9y ago

> Getting a US VISA is hard and painful when you come from a populous country like China or India Getting a green card is harder if you were born in China or India, not getting a visa, but once you've been on an H-1B for a sufficiently long period of time, you can only keep that status with a pending green card application. Switching employers at this stage is more difficult.

golem14 9y ago
Aren't there rumblings that the current administration wants to actually remove the opportunity to indefinitely linger on H1B/advance parole status while the green card application is pending ? Sounds credible as far as current administration goes, and would certainly be a huge long term problem for the US, but there we are.
- cwzwarich 9y ago
  There was a rumored proposal, but USCIS announced the other day that it was unlikely to happen, and also mentioned that if it did happen it would not apply to existing AC-21 holders, as their employers could file extensions in one year increments. The DHS has said that they want to propose the end of the H-4 visa giving work authorization for spouses of H-1B holders.

drb91 9y ago

> My China-born colleagues seem to in general be more conservative, and Silicon Valley has become violently intolerant of anyone that holds an opinion different than the predominant view What exactly does this mean? Are they evangelical baptists, libertarians, reactionaries, nationalist, homophobic, misogynist, racist, anti-atheist, pro family-values, pro corporation, skeptical of global warming, pro fossil fuel energy, war hawks, or something else altogether? It's really quite difficult to interpret your statement as anything meaningful without clarification, and there are ten thousand different ways to be "conservative". And to be clear, "conservative" is anything but a dirty word or something I'm trying to critique here--just a context-sensitive one. It could be a pejorative or a value. Otherwise it doesn't add much to the conversation--it is itself a reactionary statement.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Conservative socially does not have much to do with religion. Chinese will often claim they “aren’t as open as” westerners for some definition of open. Most of my Chinese gay colleagues in china were in the closet, there was just no way you could be open about that, even in an american company. Otherwise, the cultures are very different, which can’t be discounted. Oddly enough, many things in china would be considered too open for Americans, so it isn’t clear cut at all.
- drb91 9y ago
  Right, making it doubly confusing to use a culturaly bound one dimensional adjective to describe differences between people of wholly different cultures. It’s not a meaningful comparison. Edit: I suppose my confusion is incorrect...?
- lurr 9y ago
  > Conservative socially does not have much to do with religion It does in the US. Absolutely does.
  - gozur88 9y ago
    It does in certain regions. In others, not so much.

lurr 9y ago

> sadly leaving Why is it sad? They get to go back home instead of on the other side of the planet from the place they grew up, and they don't have to give up nearly as much to do it. Good for them. > My China-born colleagues seem to in general be more conservative, and Silicon Valley has become violently intolerant of anyone that holds an opinion different than the predominant view Had to get that "oppressed conservatives" narrative in. I keep asking what views people are so intolerant of. Tend not to get real answers.

javajosh 9y ago
These are both weasel words and willfully ignorant of what the OP is talking about. You don't have to agree with conservative views to understand that certain views are not tolerated (e.g. women are worse workers, etc.)
gozur88 9y ago
>Had to get that "oppressed conservatives" narrative in. >I keep asking what views people are so intolerant of. Tend not to get real answers. Because this is HN and people are less willing to let you derail the conversation with politics.
ogre_magi 9y ago
For your last point, I think you don't get "real" answers because there are totally different worldviews and perspectives clashing. You'd probably feel that any earnest response was a person just trying justify some "-ism" that you think is worthy of ostracism. They wouldn't see it that way.
asabjorn 9y ago
As I said below I do not find it useful at all to try to list out the views that are not tolerated as there is no way that you can reduce a huge population groups opinions into neat categories, people can hold both conservative and liberal opinions as well as everything outside those at the same time, and I believe doing so would distract from the real conversation which is the intolerance. There are also plenty of leaked examples of how people with other opinions are treated to even shock me that generally agree with the predominant view, and I encourage you to look it up and form your own opinion. > Why is it sad? They get to go back home instead of on the other side of the planet from the place they grew up, and they don't have to give up nearly as much to do it. As an immigrant myself I can tell you that leaving my network and life here would come at a huge cost. There are benefits of cause, especially since my home country Norway has a much better social support system. In my opinion nobody should have to do this out of fear, and that I perceive fear to sometimes be a contributing reason is what I find sad. Including the fact that I loose great colleauges that I love working with.

gozur88 9y ago

>Getting a US VISA is hard and painful when you come from a populous country like China or India Which is funny in the specific context of Chinese people, since you essentially have to get an internal visa to move to the city from the countryside, and it's difficult to get.

xster 9y ago

I'd add 2 more anecdata points - The strong sense of rapid progress, culturally, technologically, socially, infrastructure-wise. Everything transforms every few years and there's still the sense that everyone's hard work goes towards making the pie bigger instead of fighting each other for pieces of the pie. In relative terms, there's more stagnation in the Silicon Valley. I don't know when's the last time there has been a brand new shiny mall built. POS are still routinely being plugged with a card so you revert to using a magnetic stripe. NIMBY movements are still trying to revert society to an agrarian state. - The comfort feeling that your hard work translates to social approval and your personal wealth vs the feeling at least in the Silicon Valley that your hard work translates to your landlord's wealth and increased vilification of the tech working class.

asabjorn 9y ago
Yes, I think supply constraints on housing has in the last three decades only made the Bay Area worse. I donate to YIMBY and any other organization that fight to increase housing supply. I am tired of people claiming to fight for the poor and working class by fighting market rate housing and offices. Their position is objectively wrong and they are at this point inarguably causing damage to vast groups lives.