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This just reminds me of that subthread in yesterday's Facebook home device post where people were ranking tech companies. A lot of people put Apple first on res

This just reminds me of that subthread in yesterday's Facebook home device post where people were ranking tech companies. A lot of people put Apple first on respect for privacy. It's good to have a reminder of the nature of corporations so soon after that. Tools for users to take privacy and security into their own hands need to be made accessible enough to make it truly matter. Its like herd immunity with vaccinations: it doesn't matter that you use encryption and block trackers if all the people around you provide enough data to make inferences about the private few.

klodolph 9y ago
A counterpoint here: Consider American subpoenas, court order, FISA warrants and the like. Remember that FISA warrants are secret! Having the data managed by a US company has these consequences. Perhaps you trust the US government more than you trust the Chinese government... that is very reasonable, to be sure. But it makes so much more sense that your data is subject to the law in the country you reside in, rather than the laws of a foreign power. This is not even remotely hypothetical. Making everyone's data accessible to organizations and people subject to US court orders is bad for privacy. This kind of thing will be happening more and more, and not just China and Russia, but also the EU. So it won't just be that Chinese users can be spied upon by the Chinese government. It will also be true that it will be more difficult for the US to spy on citizens of other countries.
- rainbowmverse 9y ago
  If that's a counterpoint, my point must have been unclear. I think we're in agreement.
  - klodolph 9y ago
    I think I did not read your original comment very well.
- jstanley 9y ago
  In some respects I'd rather have my data managed by a Chinese company than a British one. It's exponentially more difficult for the Chinese government to wield data against me than it is for the British government, as I do not live somewhere where the Chinese government has any power over me.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    It's exponentially more difficult for the Chinese government to wield data against me than it is for the British government, as I do not live somewhere where the Chinese government has any power over me. It depends mostly on the nature of the data, and how much interest they have in you. If the data is damning enough, and they would find value in using it against you, then the Chinese government is perfectly able to hire someone to do so. Anyone in China who is significantly wealthy is effectively involved in politics, with potentially life and death consequences. To stay under the radar, you have to stay at the level of inconsequential small fry.
    - jstanley 9y ago
      Right, but if you're not in China at all, the Chinese government don't care about you. So it's (in some respects) safer to have your data managed in a foreign country than in the country you live in, as a counterpoint to the claim that "it makes so much more sense that your data is subject to the law in the country you reside in".
      - stcredzero 9y ago
        Right, but if you're not in China at all, the Chinese government don't care about you. In the vast majority of cases, yes. In an absolute sense, no. So it's (in some respects) safer to have your data managed in a foreign country than in the country you live in, as a counterpoint to the claim that "it makes so much more sense that your data is subject to the law in the country you reside in". There is a point to that.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > Right, but if you're not in China at all, the Chinese government don't care about you. That’s ,at best, less than clear, considering the actions attributed to PLA Unit 61398.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
I'm not sure Apple had any choice here. They can still be good for privacy in your country but they still have to play by the rules of the country they are operating in.
- SauciestGNU 9y ago
  They have the choice to exit the Chinese market rather than comply with these insidious demands. The point OP is making I think is that if Apple valued privacy, then exiting the market rather than comply is the decision they would have made.
chrchang523 9y ago
Facebook's "shadow profiles" (see e.g. https://spideroak.com/articles/facebook-shadow-profiles-a-profile-of-you-that-you-never-created/ https://spideroak.com/articles/facebook-shadow-profiles-a-pr... ) are a concrete example of this that should be better-known.
- madez 9y ago
  I'm interest what is going to happen about that starting from 25 May 2018 when the GDPR from the EU becomes enforceable. A good thing about these data regulations is that they can not only be brought to court by private individuals, but by also by dedicated officials from the nations.

klodolph 9y ago

A counterpoint here: Consider American subpoenas, court order, FISA warrants and the like. Remember that FISA warrants are secret! Having the data managed by a US company has these consequences. Perhaps you trust the US government more than you trust the Chinese government... that is very reasonable, to be sure. But it makes so much more sense that your data is subject to the law in the country you reside in, rather than the laws of a foreign power. This is not even remotely hypothetical. Making everyone's data accessible to organizations and people subject to US court orders is bad for privacy. This kind of thing will be happening more and more, and not just China and Russia, but also the EU. So it won't just be that Chinese users can be spied upon by the Chinese government. It will also be true that it will be more difficult for the US to spy on citizens of other countries.

rainbowmverse 9y ago
If that's a counterpoint, my point must have been unclear. I think we're in agreement.
- klodolph 9y ago
  I think I did not read your original comment very well.
jstanley 9y ago
In some respects I'd rather have my data managed by a Chinese company than a British one. It's exponentially more difficult for the Chinese government to wield data against me than it is for the British government, as I do not live somewhere where the Chinese government has any power over me.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  It's exponentially more difficult for the Chinese government to wield data against me than it is for the British government, as I do not live somewhere where the Chinese government has any power over me. It depends mostly on the nature of the data, and how much interest they have in you. If the data is damning enough, and they would find value in using it against you, then the Chinese government is perfectly able to hire someone to do so. Anyone in China who is significantly wealthy is effectively involved in politics, with potentially life and death consequences. To stay under the radar, you have to stay at the level of inconsequential small fry.
  - jstanley 9y ago
    Right, but if you're not in China at all, the Chinese government don't care about you. So it's (in some respects) safer to have your data managed in a foreign country than in the country you live in, as a counterpoint to the claim that "it makes so much more sense that your data is subject to the law in the country you reside in".
    - stcredzero 9y ago
      Right, but if you're not in China at all, the Chinese government don't care about you. In the vast majority of cases, yes. In an absolute sense, no. So it's (in some respects) safer to have your data managed in a foreign country than in the country you live in, as a counterpoint to the claim that "it makes so much more sense that your data is subject to the law in the country you reside in". There is a point to that.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > Right, but if you're not in China at all, the Chinese government don't care about you. That’s ,at best, less than clear, considering the actions attributed to PLA Unit 61398.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

I'm not sure Apple had any choice here. They can still be good for privacy in your country but they still have to play by the rules of the country they are operating in.

SauciestGNU 9y ago
They have the choice to exit the Chinese market rather than comply with these insidious demands. The point OP is making I think is that if Apple valued privacy, then exiting the market rather than comply is the decision they would have made.

chrchang523 9y ago

Facebook's "shadow profiles" (see e.g. https://spideroak.com/articles/facebook-shadow-profiles-a-profile-of-you-that-you-never-created/ https://spideroak.com/articles/facebook-shadow-profiles-a-pr... ) are a concrete example of this that should be better-known.

madez 9y ago
I'm interest what is going to happen about that starting from 25 May 2018 when the GDPR from the EU becomes enforceable. A good thing about these data regulations is that they can not only be brought to court by private individuals, but by also by dedicated officials from the nations.