4 ms·

> if the ID was equally easy to get for all voters Who in this country is unable to get an ID? More specifically, who in NC is unable to get an ID?

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Those who can’t make it to the middle of nowhere DMV. Texas was particularly egregarious about this, at the same time they made voter ID required, they closed down DMV offices in poorer democratic areas. Heck, the reason IDs are so contentious in the first place is that southern states have abused them in the past to suppress minority voting rights.
- fortythirteen 9y ago
  While I don't disagree that that's part of the overall strategy, I have a hard time believing that someone can't find the time once to get an ID every four years. Poor people living literally in the middle of nowhere in a state like Texas work it out, so why can't people in the city? It's rather convenient that the Democrats are always against any measure that would make elections less easy to rig, and provide no active solutions to improve the situation.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    I didn’t have a valid state ID for ten years. I had a passport, but why do I need a state ID if I’m not driving? There are many reasons why people can’t or won’t get state IDs, even if you can’t fathom it. Until we have mandatory federal IDs (which, incidentally, Republicans are usually against because...facism or something), making them required for a civic duty is just dumb and unfair.
    - RightMillennial 9y ago
      You can get a state ID that's not a driver's license. I don't how you can get much of anything without an ID. In my experience you cannot bank, get a credit card, rent, setup utilities, get a cell phone, get car insurance (obviously requires a license), or fly (passports do work) without a state ID. What do you for those things without a state ID? Have your parents sign for everything?
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        Yes you can. Pay $100, provide your birth certificate, you can get a passport! But...uhm, what if you don't have your birth certificate lying around somewhere? What if its like California, you have to pay $50 and wait in line for a few hours? Or what if you try to get a state ID and they want a utility bill to pay your residence? There are billions of little things. You can do a lot without an ID card. You can even fly with evidence of identity that doesn't require an ID. You can actually bank as long as you know your SS# and can provide another form of identity (e.g. birth certificate). You might not be able to get a credit card, but those are rich people problems. Anyways, there is an entire world that you and I are not very familiar with.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
    > against any measure that would make elections less easy to rig Is there any evidence that this is happening, in a way that voter ID would prevent?
    - pjc50 9y ago
      Apparently not : https://thinkprogress.org/kris-kobach-voter-fraud-findings-ebe089540ede/amp/?__twitter_impression=true https://thinkprogress.org/kris-kobach-voter-fraud-findings-e...
      - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
        Nope. The idea that it's a necessary "measure that would make elections less easy to rig" is a bogus talking point. "It's not hard to get" is the other fallacy, which is subject to huge selection bias "because I found it easy and so did all the people that I know". Many comments here exhibit that, and I can't tell if they're made in good faith or not.
  - zolthrowaway 9y ago
    Have you ever been poor? Have you ever been poor and had kids? It's not as simple as taking a 15 minute drive to the DMV and waiting in line. Many of these people lack access to proper transit systems to get to these places. At least where I live, the DMV is open during normal business hours which may be impossible to get to without taking time off of work. Many of these people are paid hourly which makes this a financial decision as well. It's really hard to miss an hour of work when that could be food or rent. It's really hard to come up with a solution when large swaths of the country or totally opposed to anything that slightly resembles a national ID. While I agree that we could probably be doing something, it's not as simple as telling everyone to go to the DMV.
    - fortythirteen 9y ago
      Yes, I have been poor. I worked for minimum wage and could only get around by bus until my twenties and still had an official ID. Have you, or are you assuming what it's like to be poor from the outside?
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        Wait, are you claiming you grew up in poverty and still got an ID before you struck out on your own (I was young, worked for minimum wage, got around by bus, but I was far from poor considering my family background)? Did you grow up in a trailer in the middle of the boonies way off some highway somewhere? Did you burn your trash in your backyard in a barrel? I mean, there is, I was young, living on my own, getting around by bus poor, and then there is poor poor.
      - zolthrowaway 9y ago
        If my comment was a little ad hominem, I apologize. I watched my parents struggle growing up. My dad worked in a steel mill. My mom cut hair and cleaned businesses after work. I never saw them not busy. They made a ton of sacrifices to keep a roof over my head and food on the table. Getting an ID would not have been a simple task for them. We lived in public housing and we walked almost everywhere. I watched them struggle to get by every day and to hear someone say "just do something" really makes me upset. It's not that simple. Their life was planned down to the minute. Work, walking me home, second job, making dinner, managing finances down to the penny, etc. All that I am saying is, it's not that simple. People are in some really shitty situations despite doing everything right. Making it harder for these people to vote (who already have trouble finding the time to get to the polls) is just fundamentally wrong in my opinion.
pjc50 9y ago
Note that I said "equally easy", not "possible".
RightMillennial 9y ago
This is what I don't get. In my state at least, MI, it costs $18 for a 4-year license (less for just an ID). Sure, you might have to wait a couple hours depending on the location of the SOS (DMV), but that's one day every few years. If people are actually concerned that requiring a state ID to vote will disenfranchise the poor, then compromise and make IDs free or discounted based upon income.
- SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
  >If people are actually concerned that requiring a state ID to vote will disenfranchise the poor, then compromise and make IDs free or discounted based upon income. But that's the thing. What if the people pushing to require a state ID want to disenfranchise the poor?
  - RightMillennial 9y ago
    That "what if" isn't good enough without concrete evidence. I need an ID to do many more mundane things than vote. Why is voting, which is an important civil duty, the one thing that should not require proof of identity?
    - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
      > "what if" isn't good enough without concrete evidence. I refer you to this comment, which you should have seen by now. Court case, concrete evidence. No frivolous arguments please. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16116107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16116107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16115954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16115954 > Why is voting, which is an important civil duty, the one thing that should not require proof of identity? Are you saying that it might be abused? But is it actually abused, in reality? Your "what if" isn't good enough without concrete evidence. Enough double-think.
      - RightMillennial 9y ago
        > I refer you to this comment, which you should have seen by now. Court case, concrete evidence. No frivolous arguments please. There are a lot of comments in this post so I did not see that. In this case, it does appear that the NC legislature did intentionally act maliciously to affect who could vote. That being said, I still stand by my position that an ID should be required to vote, and that it should be easy acquire an ID. > Are you saying that ... it might be abused? But is it actually, in reality? Your "what if" isn't good enough without concrete evidence. I'm saying that not requiring an ID makes it easier for voting to be abused. I doubt it's abused much because it would be too fragile and require too much orchestration, but I don't think it's nonexistent. I think it's one of many safeguards to help ensure that elections are legitimate. > Enough double-think. I fail to see how I'm being logically inconsistent. I simply asked for evidence which you did provide. Most of the time people mention vague events without any citations.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

Those who can’t make it to the middle of nowhere DMV. Texas was particularly egregarious about this, at the same time they made voter ID required, they closed down DMV offices in poorer democratic areas. Heck, the reason IDs are so contentious in the first place is that southern states have abused them in the past to suppress minority voting rights.

fortythirteen 9y ago
While I don't disagree that that's part of the overall strategy, I have a hard time believing that someone can't find the time once to get an ID every four years. Poor people living literally in the middle of nowhere in a state like Texas work it out, so why can't people in the city? It's rather convenient that the Democrats are always against any measure that would make elections less easy to rig, and provide no active solutions to improve the situation.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  I didn’t have a valid state ID for ten years. I had a passport, but why do I need a state ID if I’m not driving? There are many reasons why people can’t or won’t get state IDs, even if you can’t fathom it. Until we have mandatory federal IDs (which, incidentally, Republicans are usually against because...facism or something), making them required for a civic duty is just dumb and unfair.
  - RightMillennial 9y ago
    You can get a state ID that's not a driver's license. I don't how you can get much of anything without an ID. In my experience you cannot bank, get a credit card, rent, setup utilities, get a cell phone, get car insurance (obviously requires a license), or fly (passports do work) without a state ID. What do you for those things without a state ID? Have your parents sign for everything?
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Yes you can. Pay $100, provide your birth certificate, you can get a passport! But...uhm, what if you don't have your birth certificate lying around somewhere? What if its like California, you have to pay $50 and wait in line for a few hours? Or what if you try to get a state ID and they want a utility bill to pay your residence? There are billions of little things. You can do a lot without an ID card. You can even fly with evidence of identity that doesn't require an ID. You can actually bank as long as you know your SS# and can provide another form of identity (e.g. birth certificate). You might not be able to get a credit card, but those are rich people problems. Anyways, there is an entire world that you and I are not very familiar with.
- SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
  > against any measure that would make elections less easy to rig Is there any evidence that this is happening, in a way that voter ID would prevent?
  - pjc50 9y ago
    Apparently not : https://thinkprogress.org/kris-kobach-voter-fraud-findings-ebe089540ede/amp/?__twitter_impression=true https://thinkprogress.org/kris-kobach-voter-fraud-findings-e...
    - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
      Nope. The idea that it's a necessary "measure that would make elections less easy to rig" is a bogus talking point. "It's not hard to get" is the other fallacy, which is subject to huge selection bias "because I found it easy and so did all the people that I know". Many comments here exhibit that, and I can't tell if they're made in good faith or not.
- zolthrowaway 9y ago
  Have you ever been poor? Have you ever been poor and had kids? It's not as simple as taking a 15 minute drive to the DMV and waiting in line. Many of these people lack access to proper transit systems to get to these places. At least where I live, the DMV is open during normal business hours which may be impossible to get to without taking time off of work. Many of these people are paid hourly which makes this a financial decision as well. It's really hard to miss an hour of work when that could be food or rent. It's really hard to come up with a solution when large swaths of the country or totally opposed to anything that slightly resembles a national ID. While I agree that we could probably be doing something, it's not as simple as telling everyone to go to the DMV.
  - fortythirteen 9y ago
    Yes, I have been poor. I worked for minimum wage and could only get around by bus until my twenties and still had an official ID. Have you, or are you assuming what it's like to be poor from the outside?
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Wait, are you claiming you grew up in poverty and still got an ID before you struck out on your own (I was young, worked for minimum wage, got around by bus, but I was far from poor considering my family background)? Did you grow up in a trailer in the middle of the boonies way off some highway somewhere? Did you burn your trash in your backyard in a barrel? I mean, there is, I was young, living on my own, getting around by bus poor, and then there is poor poor.
    - zolthrowaway 9y ago
      If my comment was a little ad hominem, I apologize. I watched my parents struggle growing up. My dad worked in a steel mill. My mom cut hair and cleaned businesses after work. I never saw them not busy. They made a ton of sacrifices to keep a roof over my head and food on the table. Getting an ID would not have been a simple task for them. We lived in public housing and we walked almost everywhere. I watched them struggle to get by every day and to hear someone say "just do something" really makes me upset. It's not that simple. Their life was planned down to the minute. Work, walking me home, second job, making dinner, managing finances down to the penny, etc. All that I am saying is, it's not that simple. People are in some really shitty situations despite doing everything right. Making it harder for these people to vote (who already have trouble finding the time to get to the polls) is just fundamentally wrong in my opinion.

pjc50 9y ago

Note that I said "equally easy", not "possible".

RightMillennial 9y ago

This is what I don't get. In my state at least, MI, it costs $18 for a 4-year license (less for just an ID). Sure, you might have to wait a couple hours depending on the location of the SOS (DMV), but that's one day every few years. If people are actually concerned that requiring a state ID to vote will disenfranchise the poor, then compromise and make IDs free or discounted based upon income.

SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
>If people are actually concerned that requiring a state ID to vote will disenfranchise the poor, then compromise and make IDs free or discounted based upon income. But that's the thing. What if the people pushing to require a state ID want to disenfranchise the poor?
- RightMillennial 9y ago
  That "what if" isn't good enough without concrete evidence. I need an ID to do many more mundane things than vote. Why is voting, which is an important civil duty, the one thing that should not require proof of identity?
  - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
    > "what if" isn't good enough without concrete evidence. I refer you to this comment, which you should have seen by now. Court case, concrete evidence. No frivolous arguments please. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16116107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16116107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16115954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16115954 > Why is voting, which is an important civil duty, the one thing that should not require proof of identity? Are you saying that it might be abused? But is it actually abused, in reality? Your "what if" isn't good enough without concrete evidence. Enough double-think.
    - RightMillennial 9y ago
      > I refer you to this comment, which you should have seen by now. Court case, concrete evidence. No frivolous arguments please. There are a lot of comments in this post so I did not see that. In this case, it does appear that the NC legislature did intentionally act maliciously to affect who could vote. That being said, I still stand by my position that an ID should be required to vote, and that it should be easy acquire an ID. > Are you saying that ... it might be abused? But is it actually, in reality? Your "what if" isn't good enough without concrete evidence. I'm saying that not requiring an ID makes it easier for voting to be abused. I doubt it's abused much because it would be too fragile and require too much orchestration, but I don't think it's nonexistent. I think it's one of many safeguards to help ensure that elections are legitimate. > Enough double-think. I fail to see how I'm being logically inconsistent. I simply asked for evidence which you did provide. Most of the time people mention vague events without any citations.