7 ms·

Jack in the Box CEO reconsiders automation, kiosks

18 points by artsandsci 9y ago

samfisher83 9y ago
In Europe the McDonalds I have been to already have screen everywhere where you can order food. There still seems to be a bunch of people working there. I think this might is problem with automation. If you automate everything and you hire no people then who will buy your products. I think its why Henry Ford paid his people so well. So they could buy cars.
- elsurudo 9y ago
  Yeah, but each company just thinks in isolation. It's a bit of a prisoner's dilemma.
  - samfisher83 9y ago
    Edit: I think my comment was misunderstood.
    - harryh 9y ago
      This is wrong. From the perspective of, say, 200 years ago everything has been automated. But everyone definitely hasn't lost. It's actually the opposite. Automation makes us all better off.
    - elsurudo 9y ago
      Exactly right.
      - pc86 9y ago
        Please actually provide substantive content to the discussion or don't comment.
    - jnwatson 9y ago
      Yes, but if only all the fast food restaurants automate, only a small part of demand is lost. Clearly, it is optimal strategy to automate because other industries will take longer to automate.
- danielfoster 9y ago
  Henry Ford paid a high wage because his new assembly line concept required specialization. It would be highly inefficient to constantly rehire and retrain works. One worker missing probably had a much greater financial impact in Ford factories than in other car factories at the time. Henry Ford would have automated if he could.
- harryh 9y ago
  That Henry Ford story is apocryphal. If you think about it, it doesn't really make any sense.
  - elsurudo 9y ago
    Maybe, but he was a bit of an idealist and has strong thoughts about how people should and how society should be structured. And the resources to make a noticeable change. HAve you heard of Fordlandia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordlândia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordlândia
- zitterbewegung 9y ago
  Just because a lot of people are working at McDonalds does not mean that the automation has not replaced people's jobs. For example there are a lot of people that work in a law firm but there are no secretaries typing up what someone else is dictating.
danielfoster 9y ago
I'm curious if higher minimum wages in a small number of states will also impact jobs in low-wage states. I would imagine a fair bit of the cost of installing these machines is fixed (software development, machine design), and chains might as well roll them out in low-wage states as well.
- bluGill 9y ago
  Maybe. Well trained humans give better customer service when you are talking to them. (try to tell the kiosk the restroom is out of toilet paper) Thus there are advantages to humans who are easy to talk to. However a kiosk allows 1 person to work the 10pm->5am shift - this shift is not profitable with 3 high wage employees, but if one person can cook and deliver food it might make sense.
csbrooks 9y ago
Is it really true that the minimum wage before was JUST at the point where replacing workers wasn't worth the cost, and now it's going just over that threshold? If they can find a way to replace workers with machines, my guess is they will. My local walmart has one worker managing about ten self-checkout stations now. Panera Bread has stations where you order your food; no cashier needed. And the wage they are paying here is well above minimum wage, anyway. CEOs will eliminate all the employees they can, because they consider that their job. And then they'll give out executive bonuses as massive as they can get away with. There is no reason why the minimum wage should be so low that no one could make a living off it.
- astr0n0m3r 9y ago
  Actually, there are perfectly good reasons the minimum wage should be below a "living wage".
  - KozmoNau7 9y ago
    No, there are literally no good reasons for that. If you work a full-time job, and I don't care what that job is, your employer absolutely should adequately compensate you, for the amount of time spent on your job. Your employer is buying your time, the most precious and absolutely non-renewable resource you have. Don't sell it too cheaply.
    - kahnpro 9y ago
      Especially if your full-time job contract specifically prohibits you from getting a second job or doing side jobs. If the company is buying all of your working time then they had damn well better be paying you at least a living wage.
    - mrkstu 9y ago
      So teenagers working part-time need to earn a living wage? Having a one-size-fits-all number is damaging. The problem is workers who don't hone a useful skill and create a record of reliability. Anyone that does that won't be making the minimum wage after a little while, at least in the current economy.
Daniel_sk 9y ago
McDonalds around the Europe already have those kiosks (not all, yet). Same like self-checkout in stores - it’ not uncommon.
- mulletbum 9y ago
  They have them in the US too. It is funny, if you go in and there is a line at register, almost all the kiosks sit empty. You can order your food and have it handed to you before even part of the line is served. It tends to get you dirty looks.
jnwatson 9y ago
Reminds me of an oldie but a goodie: Manna, a short story by Marshall Brain. It is speculative fiction from 2003 that starts with the first burger joints being automated. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manna_(novel) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manna_(novel) It is available to read for free on the author’s web site.
schnevets 9y ago
The Target near my apartment in Brooklyn is not giant, but due to population density it has a ton of registers. Over the holidays, the replaced a sizable chunk of these registers with self-checkout kiosks. Although there was a long line to use the self-checkout kiosks, it was a faster and better experience than waiting for a register to open. More importantly, there were still a lot of people working in this section. People were directing customers to registers, guiding people through checkout, and (my favorite) putting things that people left behind back on shelves immediately. Although it was still hard work, the job definitely seemed preferable to standing behind a register and moving things past the scanner. I am still confident that short-term automation will improve environments and turn bottom-tier jobs into more productive roles (in Jack-in-the-Box's case, maintenance teams for the kiosks, software developers to code the kiosks). In the debate about minimum wage increases, a lot of people see automation as a negative. It may hurt in the short-term but we will see a major benefit faster than people assume.
- kahnpro 9y ago
  One major concern about "turning bottom-tier jobs into more productive roles" is about the number of jobs. If 10,000 cashier jobs gets turned into 1,000 maintenance and guidance jobs, you've still put 90% of your workforce out of work. While I don't think we should artificially protect such bottom-tier jobs, this transformation is still going to be very disruptive.
  - jnet 9y ago
    The other problem is that the 10,000 cashiers likely won't be qualified to fill the 1,000 maintenance/programming positions.
    - dagw 9y ago
      We're not talking about programming the machines, we're talking about walking people through how to use the machines, help customers troubleshoot when somethings go wrong and knowing where to kick the machines when they crash. You'll easily find 1000 people qualified to do that among your 10k cashiers.
throwawaymanbot 9y ago
Cant blame the higher minimum wage in some states (that still does not pay an actual living) on fast food firms using automation. It just makes sense for firms to do this. If a job is pointless to a human (ie a human is STILL using food stamps while gainfully employed) then its a garbage job. We need to get rid of all the garbage jobs and the companies that supply them.
baldeagle 9y ago
I used a Jack in the Box kiosk in San Diego. It was awesome; I almost always order the same thing and it would ring my usual by just swiping the credit card to pay for it. Normally, I wouldn't bother to the cashier with the extras, since I had only ok success with them being done correctly. The kiosk order was always on point though. The only friction was the time to make the food. (and in retrospect, the caloric content).
zghst 9y ago
Most Jack in the Box orders are through the driv-thru, there’s not nearly as many people coming in to eat compared to McDonald’s. Adding Kiosks to their 10 urban locations would be a waste of money at this point.
taoistextremist 9y ago
These kiosks are already in tons of McDonald's locations from what I understand (I've only seen them in Canada but I'm told they're elsewhere) so I don't get the hesitation. They work well, especially if there's a long line or you're hungover and don't want to talk to anybody. What I'm wondering is when they're gonna figure out how to replace the cooks with machines (though that's a different task from kiosks, you need actual robotics) and staff the place with a single manager to deal with customer complaints.
- tonylemesmer 9y ago
  The kiosks have been in all the McDonald's in the UK I've been to in the past 3 years (probably only about 6 tbh). They're great because you can get exactly what you want, down to the pickle and mustard and it entertains the kids whilst you're in the restaurant. In busy restaurants the kiosks do allow a massive backlog of orders to build up. The kitchens cannot keep up. edit: added 2nd para.
  - taoistextremist 9y ago
    >In busy restaurants the kiosks do allow a massive backlog of orders to build up. The kitchens cannot keep up This sounds like it could be understaffing, but if not, they should just put a pause on all orders. Of course, managers would never want that because they're averse to turning down business even if it worsens the quality for everyone.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- bluGill 9y ago
  When I was at McDonalds (mid 1990s) they already has robotic french fry machines - I didn't see it but my understanding (and faulty memory) is frozen fries went in one end, cooked (not boxed) fries came out the others. I remember our managers discussing it and really wanting it for the safety, but they couldn't make the payments (the current fry vat was failing so they already had to pay for the labor and a fryer, but the additional cost of the robot was too high) Note that I said safety. They were not thinking about labor costs, they were thinking about how it would not splash hot oil on kids. I think it is fair to say that every fast food would accept a 1% loss of profit margin (that 4% to 3% profit margin) just to not have humans interact with burning hot machines.
searine 9y ago
My local Burger King has transitioned to this. I don't often eat there, but I'll admit it is a guilty pleasure. One interesting thing I've noticed is that with ordering kiosks, I'm much more likely to be upsold. Having all the option laid out in front of me, and no pressure from someone trying to "sell" me I find it far easier to select add ons. This says to me that there is a profit motive beyond simple efficiency. It creates opportunity for better sales as well.

18 points by artsandsci 9y ago

In Europe the McDonalds I have been to already have screen everywhere where you can order food. There still seems to be a bunch of people working there. I think this might is problem with automation. If you automate everything and you hire no people then who will buy your products. I think its why Henry Ford paid his people so well. So they could buy cars.

elsurudo 9y ago
Yeah, but each company just thinks in isolation. It's a bit of a prisoner's dilemma.
- samfisher83 9y ago
  Edit: I think my comment was misunderstood.
  - harryh 9y ago
    This is wrong. From the perspective of, say, 200 years ago everything has been automated. But everyone definitely hasn't lost. It's actually the opposite. Automation makes us all better off.
  - elsurudo 9y ago
    Exactly right.
    - pc86 9y ago
      Please actually provide substantive content to the discussion or don't comment.
  - jnwatson 9y ago
    Yes, but if only all the fast food restaurants automate, only a small part of demand is lost. Clearly, it is optimal strategy to automate because other industries will take longer to automate.
danielfoster 9y ago
Henry Ford paid a high wage because his new assembly line concept required specialization. It would be highly inefficient to constantly rehire and retrain works. One worker missing probably had a much greater financial impact in Ford factories than in other car factories at the time. Henry Ford would have automated if he could.
harryh 9y ago
That Henry Ford story is apocryphal. If you think about it, it doesn't really make any sense.
- elsurudo 9y ago
  Maybe, but he was a bit of an idealist and has strong thoughts about how people should and how society should be structured. And the resources to make a noticeable change. HAve you heard of Fordlandia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordlândia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordlândia
zitterbewegung 9y ago
Just because a lot of people are working at McDonalds does not mean that the automation has not replaced people's jobs. For example there are a lot of people that work in a law firm but there are no secretaries typing up what someone else is dictating.

danielfoster 9y ago

I'm curious if higher minimum wages in a small number of states will also impact jobs in low-wage states. I would imagine a fair bit of the cost of installing these machines is fixed (software development, machine design), and chains might as well roll them out in low-wage states as well.

bluGill 9y ago
Maybe. Well trained humans give better customer service when you are talking to them. (try to tell the kiosk the restroom is out of toilet paper) Thus there are advantages to humans who are easy to talk to. However a kiosk allows 1 person to work the 10pm->5am shift - this shift is not profitable with 3 high wage employees, but if one person can cook and deliver food it might make sense.

csbrooks 9y ago

Is it really true that the minimum wage before was JUST at the point where replacing workers wasn't worth the cost, and now it's going just over that threshold? If they can find a way to replace workers with machines, my guess is they will. My local walmart has one worker managing about ten self-checkout stations now. Panera Bread has stations where you order your food; no cashier needed. And the wage they are paying here is well above minimum wage, anyway. CEOs will eliminate all the employees they can, because they consider that their job. And then they'll give out executive bonuses as massive as they can get away with. There is no reason why the minimum wage should be so low that no one could make a living off it.

astr0n0m3r 9y ago
Actually, there are perfectly good reasons the minimum wage should be below a "living wage".
- KozmoNau7 9y ago
  No, there are literally no good reasons for that. If you work a full-time job, and I don't care what that job is, your employer absolutely should adequately compensate you, for the amount of time spent on your job. Your employer is buying your time, the most precious and absolutely non-renewable resource you have. Don't sell it too cheaply.
  - kahnpro 9y ago
    Especially if your full-time job contract specifically prohibits you from getting a second job or doing side jobs. If the company is buying all of your working time then they had damn well better be paying you at least a living wage.
  - mrkstu 9y ago
    So teenagers working part-time need to earn a living wage? Having a one-size-fits-all number is damaging. The problem is workers who don't hone a useful skill and create a record of reliability. Anyone that does that won't be making the minimum wage after a little while, at least in the current economy.

Daniel_sk 9y ago

McDonalds around the Europe already have those kiosks (not all, yet). Same like self-checkout in stores - it’ not uncommon.

mulletbum 9y ago
They have them in the US too. It is funny, if you go in and there is a line at register, almost all the kiosks sit empty. You can order your food and have it handed to you before even part of the line is served. It tends to get you dirty looks.

jnwatson 9y ago

Reminds me of an oldie but a goodie: Manna, a short story by Marshall Brain. It is speculative fiction from 2003 that starts with the first burger joints being automated. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manna_(novel) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manna_(novel) It is available to read for free on the author’s web site.

schnevets 9y ago

The Target near my apartment in Brooklyn is not giant, but due to population density it has a ton of registers. Over the holidays, the replaced a sizable chunk of these registers with self-checkout kiosks. Although there was a long line to use the self-checkout kiosks, it was a faster and better experience than waiting for a register to open. More importantly, there were still a lot of people working in this section. People were directing customers to registers, guiding people through checkout, and (my favorite) putting things that people left behind back on shelves immediately. Although it was still hard work, the job definitely seemed preferable to standing behind a register and moving things past the scanner. I am still confident that short-term automation will improve environments and turn bottom-tier jobs into more productive roles (in Jack-in-the-Box's case, maintenance teams for the kiosks, software developers to code the kiosks). In the debate about minimum wage increases, a lot of people see automation as a negative. It may hurt in the short-term but we will see a major benefit faster than people assume.

kahnpro 9y ago
One major concern about "turning bottom-tier jobs into more productive roles" is about the number of jobs. If 10,000 cashier jobs gets turned into 1,000 maintenance and guidance jobs, you've still put 90% of your workforce out of work. While I don't think we should artificially protect such bottom-tier jobs, this transformation is still going to be very disruptive.
- jnet 9y ago
  The other problem is that the 10,000 cashiers likely won't be qualified to fill the 1,000 maintenance/programming positions.
  - dagw 9y ago
    We're not talking about programming the machines, we're talking about walking people through how to use the machines, help customers troubleshoot when somethings go wrong and knowing where to kick the machines when they crash. You'll easily find 1000 people qualified to do that among your 10k cashiers.

throwawaymanbot 9y ago

Cant blame the higher minimum wage in some states (that still does not pay an actual living) on fast food firms using automation. It just makes sense for firms to do this. If a job is pointless to a human (ie a human is STILL using food stamps while gainfully employed) then its a garbage job. We need to get rid of all the garbage jobs and the companies that supply them.

baldeagle 9y ago

I used a Jack in the Box kiosk in San Diego. It was awesome; I almost always order the same thing and it would ring my usual by just swiping the credit card to pay for it. Normally, I wouldn't bother to the cashier with the extras, since I had only ok success with them being done correctly. The kiosk order was always on point though. The only friction was the time to make the food. (and in retrospect, the caloric content).

zghst 9y ago

Most Jack in the Box orders are through the driv-thru, there’s not nearly as many people coming in to eat compared to McDonald’s. Adding Kiosks to their 10 urban locations would be a waste of money at this point.

taoistextremist 9y ago

These kiosks are already in tons of McDonald's locations from what I understand (I've only seen them in Canada but I'm told they're elsewhere) so I don't get the hesitation. They work well, especially if there's a long line or you're hungover and don't want to talk to anybody. What I'm wondering is when they're gonna figure out how to replace the cooks with machines (though that's a different task from kiosks, you need actual robotics) and staff the place with a single manager to deal with customer complaints.

tonylemesmer 9y ago
The kiosks have been in all the McDonald's in the UK I've been to in the past 3 years (probably only about 6 tbh). They're great because you can get exactly what you want, down to the pickle and mustard and it entertains the kids whilst you're in the restaurant. In busy restaurants the kiosks do allow a massive backlog of orders to build up. The kitchens cannot keep up. edit: added 2nd para.
- taoistextremist 9y ago
  >In busy restaurants the kiosks do allow a massive backlog of orders to build up. The kitchens cannot keep up This sounds like it could be understaffing, but if not, they should just put a pause on all orders. Of course, managers would never want that because they're averse to turning down business even if it worsens the quality for everyone.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
bluGill 9y ago
When I was at McDonalds (mid 1990s) they already has robotic french fry machines - I didn't see it but my understanding (and faulty memory) is frozen fries went in one end, cooked (not boxed) fries came out the others. I remember our managers discussing it and really wanting it for the safety, but they couldn't make the payments (the current fry vat was failing so they already had to pay for the labor and a fryer, but the additional cost of the robot was too high) Note that I said safety. They were not thinking about labor costs, they were thinking about how it would not splash hot oil on kids. I think it is fair to say that every fast food would accept a 1% loss of profit margin (that 4% to 3% profit margin) just to not have humans interact with burning hot machines.

searine 9y ago

My local Burger King has transitioned to this. I don't often eat there, but I'll admit it is a guilty pleasure. One interesting thing I've noticed is that with ordering kiosks, I'm much more likely to be upsold. Having all the option laid out in front of me, and no pressure from someone trying to "sell" me I find it far easier to select add ons. This says to me that there is a profit motive beyond simple efficiency. It creates opportunity for better sales as well.