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Makes you wonder why we allow the animal agriculture industry to jack up their profits with wildly excessive overuse of antibiotics and externalize the cost ont

Makes you wonder why we allow the animal agriculture industry to jack up their profits with wildly excessive overuse of antibiotics and externalize the cost onto the rest of us, not only in terms of dollars but in terms of loss of access to fundamental and essential medical procedures.

jopsen 9y ago
Yeah, we won't need rationing for humans if we just stop overuse in agriculture. Credits to the EU for regulation this aggressively.. I even think the US is doing something: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_use_in_livestock https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_use_in_livestock As with climate change, this is probably going to hit emerging economies the hardest.. due to lack of regulation and less ability to deal with cost of workarounds.
- hycaria 9y ago
  Wow wow wow, are you kidding ? You must be one of those regulators that constantly press breeders and veterinarians over lowering antibiotics usage in livestock, yet risible efforts in comparison are made in human medicine. Let's use latest generation antibiotics for the smallest procedures ! Who cares ?! Literally everyone is doing something about it in animal care (in the EU we lost availability of many specialties, or some are now usable only after antibiograms), yet it doesn't get better because MDs don't do shit. And what can they do after all, people can just go and find another practitioner. I just hope that with such reasoning you're ready to have your animal protein have its price tripled then or see your dog die of pneumonia, because that's what we're coming to. Or maybe everyone needs to brace themselves and endure having a cold for 2 more days and not resort to antibiotics for every little thing, or we will soon leave our YOPI (young, old, pregnant, immunosuppressed) to dying with no available care. By our current state of overpopulation, it's not a big deal after all.
  - alkonaut 9y ago
    What's your point? That the EU banning antibiotics in healthy livestock is a bad thing, because it drives up meat prices? I'm completely happy with meat prices where I live and our ban on antibiotics for growth (i.e. in health animals) predates the EU regulation. > Or maybe everyone needs to brace themselves and endure having a cold for 2 more days and not resort to antibiotics for every little thing The reduction in antibiotic use here by doctors is also pretty noticable. I certainly don't get antibiotics prescribed for every little thing. Also, it's important to remember that while doctors might seem like they throw antibiotics at every patient, they typically prescribe the same very narrow antibiotics for everyone and use broad spectrum ones more restrictively (which is a good thing). It would be terrible if people could buy broad spectrum antibiotics over the counter.
    - hycaria 9y ago
      Not everyone is prepared for higher animal protein prices (I don't think it's a bad thing, and I don't consume them anyways). But the people most prone to ask for radical measures are often the least aware of situations and their consequences. >our ban on antibiotics for growth Which were the only approved use of antibiotics in animals in your country without a doubt. >I certainly don't get antibiotics prescribed for every little thing Yeah me neither yet the spectacular decrease we should see is not there yet. Maybe there are other, more exigent patients then ?! >they typically prescribe the same very narrow antibiotics for everyone and use broad spectrum ones more restrictively (which is a good thing). It would be terrible if people could buy broad spectrum antibiotics over the counter. Well luckily some are only available in hospitals or such. But when I hear war stories from a veterinarian friend who switched to human medicine and sees lastest quinolones used systematically no matter the health status of the person for benign procedures, we just facepalm. They don't want to take the 5% risk that someone will need aftercare I guess. But MRSA and nosocomial infections are the real, growing threat...
      - alkonaut 9y ago
        > Which were the only approved use of antibiotics in animals in your country without a doubt. You mean countries had (or has) laws that prohibited antibiotics for its proper use (to treat infection) but allowed antibiotics in livestock for growth stimulation? Which countries were that? And what would be the reasoning behind that? As I understood it, the "bad" countries allow antibiotics for both purposes, whereas the "good" countries started restricting antibiotics for growth, and eventually banned it completely. Have I completely misunderstood you mean?
  - jopsen 9y ago
    > I just hope that with such reasoning you're ready to have your animal protein have its price tripled then or see your dog die of pneumonia Yes, absolutely. In fact higher meat prices probably wouldn't be a bad thing :) On topic: maybe I was a bit extreme, what I meant was that if we limit agriculture usage of antibiotics, then we can hopefully avoid the kind of dystopian rationing for humans that the article talks about. I'm certainly willing to see higher meat prices before we ration antibiotics away from humans who critically need it. (not talking about a cold that would go away on it's own)
- legulere 9y ago
  Sadly a lot of countries don’t enforce this properly: https://unisensor.be/sites/default/files/pictures/2016-08-01.jpg https://unisensor.be/sites/default/files/pictures/2016-08-01...
- kikoreis 9y ago
  Interestingly, in 2010 Brazil introduced legislation severely limiting access to antibiotics for humans. Since then you need to hand in a prescription with each purchase -- and it is kept by the pharmacy. Doctors still prescribe antibiotics more or less liberally, so it's not perfect, but most self medicated abuse has been drastically reduced.
  - majewsky 9y ago
    After the first sentence, I expected something much harsher. Handing out antibiotics only to patients with a prescription seems like common sense to me.
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      My understanding: Brazil was pretty freewheeling for a long time. At one time, I was internet acquainted with someone into alternative remedies who moved there so they could do whatever the heck they wanted without answering to anyone, basically.
      - cassianoleal 9y ago
        That's absolutely not true. Brazil has legislations and regulations for things many countries just use common sense. If by alternative medicine you mean homeopathy, that's highly regulated and you need to be a registered medical doctor to use it. If you mean something else, then that would depend on what remedies (s)he was using.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    - woliveirajr 9y ago
      In Brazil you can buy almost any medical drug in a drugstore without a prescription. For some drugs you need different kind of prescriptions: antibiotics just need a regular prescription, some others will need special prescriptions that are only available for doctors who have applied, and so on. So, yes, things were hardned few years ago.
tmalsburg2 9y ago
Because that gives us cheap burgers.
- deelowe 9y ago
  Do not underestimate the competitive advantage (read necessity considering that nations wage war against each other) for nations to have cheap access to food and energy.
bluGill 9y ago
It was never that bad. Yes they were overused, but the ones overused were not useful for humans so resistance isn't actually a factor.
- nate_meurer 9y ago
  > "the ones overused were not useful for humans so resistance isn't actually a factor" First of all, that's not true; there's substantial overlap between agricultural and human use, for example the Bacitracin we use in the U.S. to promote growth in livestock, and the colistin now flooding Chinese agriculture. Second, it wouldn't matter even if you were right; bacteria acquire resistance to classes of related antibiotics. So, for example, when bacteria become resistant to the fluoroquinolones that we regularly put in poultry feed in the U.S., those bacteria will likely be immune to Cipro when they infect you.
jackhack 9y ago
antibiotics (natamycin, in particular) are now routinely used in packaged shredded cheese, to inhibit mold growth. A sustained low-level dose of antibiotic is proven to foster antibiotic resistance.
- arpa 9y ago
  As the name (*mycin) (and purpose!) suggests, that's not an antibiotic, but rather antimycotic (anti-fungal) substance: antibiotics target microorganisms (i.e. bacteria), while antimycotics target fungi, a completely different _kingdom_. Sorry, but your comment is completely wrong.
  - jackhack 9y ago
    Greatly appreciate the clarification.
sliverstorm 9y ago
Reminds me of water rights. During droughts, huge campaigns against residential water use in California- meanwhile industrial agriculture consumes 80%+ of the water used in the state, and has no incentive to cut back.

jopsen 9y ago

Yeah, we won't need rationing for humans if we just stop overuse in agriculture. Credits to the EU for regulation this aggressively.. I even think the US is doing something: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_use_in_livestock https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_use_in_livestock As with climate change, this is probably going to hit emerging economies the hardest.. due to lack of regulation and less ability to deal with cost of workarounds.

hycaria 9y ago
Wow wow wow, are you kidding ? You must be one of those regulators that constantly press breeders and veterinarians over lowering antibiotics usage in livestock, yet risible efforts in comparison are made in human medicine. Let's use latest generation antibiotics for the smallest procedures ! Who cares ?! Literally everyone is doing something about it in animal care (in the EU we lost availability of many specialties, or some are now usable only after antibiograms), yet it doesn't get better because MDs don't do shit. And what can they do after all, people can just go and find another practitioner. I just hope that with such reasoning you're ready to have your animal protein have its price tripled then or see your dog die of pneumonia, because that's what we're coming to. Or maybe everyone needs to brace themselves and endure having a cold for 2 more days and not resort to antibiotics for every little thing, or we will soon leave our YOPI (young, old, pregnant, immunosuppressed) to dying with no available care. By our current state of overpopulation, it's not a big deal after all.
- alkonaut 9y ago
  What's your point? That the EU banning antibiotics in healthy livestock is a bad thing, because it drives up meat prices? I'm completely happy with meat prices where I live and our ban on antibiotics for growth (i.e. in health animals) predates the EU regulation. > Or maybe everyone needs to brace themselves and endure having a cold for 2 more days and not resort to antibiotics for every little thing The reduction in antibiotic use here by doctors is also pretty noticable. I certainly don't get antibiotics prescribed for every little thing. Also, it's important to remember that while doctors might seem like they throw antibiotics at every patient, they typically prescribe the same very narrow antibiotics for everyone and use broad spectrum ones more restrictively (which is a good thing). It would be terrible if people could buy broad spectrum antibiotics over the counter.
  - hycaria 9y ago
    Not everyone is prepared for higher animal protein prices (I don't think it's a bad thing, and I don't consume them anyways). But the people most prone to ask for radical measures are often the least aware of situations and their consequences. >our ban on antibiotics for growth Which were the only approved use of antibiotics in animals in your country without a doubt. >I certainly don't get antibiotics prescribed for every little thing Yeah me neither yet the spectacular decrease we should see is not there yet. Maybe there are other, more exigent patients then ?! >they typically prescribe the same very narrow antibiotics for everyone and use broad spectrum ones more restrictively (which is a good thing). It would be terrible if people could buy broad spectrum antibiotics over the counter. Well luckily some are only available in hospitals or such. But when I hear war stories from a veterinarian friend who switched to human medicine and sees lastest quinolones used systematically no matter the health status of the person for benign procedures, we just facepalm. They don't want to take the 5% risk that someone will need aftercare I guess. But MRSA and nosocomial infections are the real, growing threat...
    - alkonaut 9y ago
      > Which were the only approved use of antibiotics in animals in your country without a doubt. You mean countries had (or has) laws that prohibited antibiotics for its proper use (to treat infection) but allowed antibiotics in livestock for growth stimulation? Which countries were that? And what would be the reasoning behind that? As I understood it, the "bad" countries allow antibiotics for both purposes, whereas the "good" countries started restricting antibiotics for growth, and eventually banned it completely. Have I completely misunderstood you mean?
- jopsen 9y ago
  > I just hope that with such reasoning you're ready to have your animal protein have its price tripled then or see your dog die of pneumonia Yes, absolutely. In fact higher meat prices probably wouldn't be a bad thing :) On topic: maybe I was a bit extreme, what I meant was that if we limit agriculture usage of antibiotics, then we can hopefully avoid the kind of dystopian rationing for humans that the article talks about. I'm certainly willing to see higher meat prices before we ration antibiotics away from humans who critically need it. (not talking about a cold that would go away on it's own)
legulere 9y ago
Sadly a lot of countries don’t enforce this properly: https://unisensor.be/sites/default/files/pictures/2016-08-01.jpg https://unisensor.be/sites/default/files/pictures/2016-08-01...
kikoreis 9y ago
Interestingly, in 2010 Brazil introduced legislation severely limiting access to antibiotics for humans. Since then you need to hand in a prescription with each purchase -- and it is kept by the pharmacy. Doctors still prescribe antibiotics more or less liberally, so it's not perfect, but most self medicated abuse has been drastically reduced.
- majewsky 9y ago
  After the first sentence, I expected something much harsher. Handing out antibiotics only to patients with a prescription seems like common sense to me.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    My understanding: Brazil was pretty freewheeling for a long time. At one time, I was internet acquainted with someone into alternative remedies who moved there so they could do whatever the heck they wanted without answering to anyone, basically.
    - cassianoleal 9y ago
      That's absolutely not true. Brazil has legislations and regulations for things many countries just use common sense. If by alternative medicine you mean homeopathy, that's highly regulated and you need to be a registered medical doctor to use it. If you mean something else, then that would depend on what remedies (s)he was using.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - woliveirajr 9y ago
    In Brazil you can buy almost any medical drug in a drugstore without a prescription. For some drugs you need different kind of prescriptions: antibiotics just need a regular prescription, some others will need special prescriptions that are only available for doctors who have applied, and so on. So, yes, things were hardned few years ago.

tmalsburg2 9y ago

Because that gives us cheap burgers.

deelowe 9y ago
Do not underestimate the competitive advantage (read necessity considering that nations wage war against each other) for nations to have cheap access to food and energy.

bluGill 9y ago

It was never that bad. Yes they were overused, but the ones overused were not useful for humans so resistance isn't actually a factor.

nate_meurer 9y ago
> "the ones overused were not useful for humans so resistance isn't actually a factor" First of all, that's not true; there's substantial overlap between agricultural and human use, for example the Bacitracin we use in the U.S. to promote growth in livestock, and the colistin now flooding Chinese agriculture. Second, it wouldn't matter even if you were right; bacteria acquire resistance to classes of related antibiotics. So, for example, when bacteria become resistant to the fluoroquinolones that we regularly put in poultry feed in the U.S., those bacteria will likely be immune to Cipro when they infect you.

jackhack 9y ago

antibiotics (natamycin, in particular) are now routinely used in packaged shredded cheese, to inhibit mold growth. A sustained low-level dose of antibiotic is proven to foster antibiotic resistance.

arpa 9y ago
As the name (*mycin) (and purpose!) suggests, that's not an antibiotic, but rather antimycotic (anti-fungal) substance: antibiotics target microorganisms (i.e. bacteria), while antimycotics target fungi, a completely different _kingdom_. Sorry, but your comment is completely wrong.
- jackhack 9y ago
  Greatly appreciate the clarification.

sliverstorm 9y ago

Reminds me of water rights. During droughts, huge campaigns against residential water use in California- meanwhile industrial agriculture consumes 80%+ of the water used in the state, and has no incentive to cut back.