7 ms·

I'm not a big fan of Elon Musk, but let's not get political. I do however, want to point out Buffalo .. its troubles with Solar City .. and its troubles with E

I'm not a big fan of Elon Musk, but let's not get political. I do however, want to point out Buffalo .. its troubles with Solar City .. and its troubles with Elon Musk. Key (non-disputed / non-political points) - Tesla did not hire local workers, and did not hold up on its end for diversity of work-force - SolarCity received 750$ million in the Billion to Buffalo at a time it hadn't operated at a profit in over 2 years (I believe) - Ciminelli, Buffalo's prior largest construction company that built SolarCity was charged with bid rigging / bribery by the Federal Government and it has all but folded up shop. - Panasonic / Tesla agreement / partnership existed in 2006, yet Cuomo said he brokered this deal (fabrication) The Riverbend site that SolarCity started has all but been successful in Erie County. That's my 2c, and the above is factual, non-disputed points. So .. my real question, is why is this not brought to the national level for discussion to what Elon is doing to communities like Buffalo, where I live? That's my question ...

jsight 9y ago
Most of the articles that I have read regarding the Buffalo plant have been about what a mess that it has been. This feels like an aberration, and maybe a sign that things are improving a little bit?
- JohnStudio 9y ago
  I don't want to digress here, but $345 million dollars has been spent in the last 5-7 years to promote growth in our region. However, entities like 43 North (our regions YC of sorts) has failed to retain / keep new businesses that they recruit for their yearly $1million VC contest. I think all but one company has stayed here since its inception. Secondly, the dollars here have all been spent on revitalization of Main St - which if you walk the 1 block to 800 block (basically Canal Side to Theater district) - one can make the argument of gentrification (controversial on its best day). The money / jobs / growing enthusiasm isn't reflected in a minority middle class. Bottom line, that's what I personally call success of any city trying to regain momentum. By all accounts, I am an educated, white, privileged, and successful conservative living in the suburbs. However, I take the post-Civil War northern Republican view of reconstruction by giving the vision of today should be the vision of 1865 .. and that's equality of all minorities with their white counterparts. The death of Abe Lincoln put us back 50 - 70 years in that movement, and as Andrew Johnson favored the status quote of Southern Democrats / Aristocratic colonialism ... it bleeds into the inequities that minorities today. I know that's long winded, but the historical throw-back .. plays out today, in cities like Buffalo .. where all I want is my black / latino / muslim communities of Buffalo to have the same equity that I have and live as well as I do. Unfortunately ... it's just not happening, despite the welfare dollar being so dominant here in New York (which I do not detest - I just want it used more strategically in regions of poverty). Anyway .. off my soap-box.
  - GiorgioG 9y ago
    > I know that's long winded, but the historical throw-back .. plays out today, in cities like Buffalo .. where all I want is my black / latino / muslim communities of Buffalo to have the same equity that I have and live as well as I do. Unfortunately ... it's just not happening, despite the welfare dollar being so dominant here in New York (which I do not detest - I just want it used more strategically in regions of poverty). I grew up in Buffalo (on the west side) among the minorities you mentioned - nothing stopped my peers (white, black, hispanic, etc) in school from succeeding except their own choices. It helps to have supportive parents, but it doesn't guarantee anything (my brother never got into any trouble but he's also never been motivated/driven either.) A friend who wound up being class valedictorian had two siblings that were both dropouts. poverty != lack of opportunity
    - JohnStudio 9y ago
      Cannot agree with you more, but poverty is still a limiting factor for a great many people that don't have "built in" survival skills.
      - GiorgioG 9y ago
        Poverty is like starting a race in last place. There's only one person who's responsible for making sure you don't finish last. No amount of welfare, coddling, etc is going to make up for lack of motivation and drive. My parents weren't poor, we were middle-class - but they lived paycheck to paycheck and that scared the daylights out of me as I got older. That's what motivated me to succeed IMO - and I'm obviously fortunate to have picked software dev as a profession. My grandparents were poor (my grandfather never learned to read - he went to work in the fields in Sicily at age 8) - that didn't stop him from working hard all of his life, buying a house, raising a family.
wmf 9y ago
Local governments never benefit from such incentives so this case isn't notable.
- JohnStudio 9y ago
  ... and why is that? why can we ask for benefits? Another irony is the hydro-power we get from the Niagara Falls energy generation, yet we pay the highest energy costs in the country in Erie County .. we sell most of that hydro power to PA and OH. It seems rather upside down, IMHO.
  - marnett 9y ago
    typically these massive corporate incentives are just a part of the corporatist strategy of pitting all American cities against each other in order to get a company to set up shop there (look no further than Amazon's scheme from this summer accepting 'applications' (per-se) from different cities for HQ2 - many suspect this is just a scheme to force Seattle into more favorable tax incentives, etc which they previously were unwilling to offer). Whether the city's leadership truly believe the corporation will aid them is up in the air, most of the time the city loses out, and the corporation leaves when the incentives dry up. If you're optimistic, than many city council members just get unlucky because it is 100% 'beneficial in theory and just not in practice'. If you're a little more skeptical, given this corporatist strong arming happens nationwide constantly, it is just the reality of corporations exploiting cities.
tw04 9y ago
> it hadn't operated at a profit in over 2 years (I believe) And how much of that is a direct result of the fact they are competing against Chinese-made panels that are directly funded by the Chinese government? There is literally no way you can have a discussion about ANY renewable energy without it being political. Either the US is going to protect US industry from Chinese goods being sold below-cost, or we're going to have to do the same thing to compete.
- JohnStudio 9y ago
  I don't dispute that point - however, investment in a company that can't turn a profit by a magnitude of $750 million of our tax dollars and area doesn't seem to be a wise use of dollars. That's really my overarching concern. There's no real benefit to the local economy, so why do it? That's my business mind, not my political mind on what's good or not for the environment. In the end it's tax dollars (rather high at that) that I'm putting directly into these incentives .. asking for some better investment is all.
  - GiorgioG 9y ago
    > There's no real benefit to the local economy, so why do it? You're assuming the politicians have the area's best interest at heart. Start by thinking - what's in it for them? Good press for bringing in a nationally recognized brand to the area. Maybe campaign contributions from said company. Maybe you get thrown some more campaign contributions from the construction companies that get work out of the deal.
  - zardo 9y ago
    The reality is, the companies have all the cards in these deals. They have more information, better information processing, and critically, they have options. Keep in mind the opportunity cost for these deals. Cut the company a tax break, or continue to not collect taxes on a vacant lot. If Buffalo actually brought cash to the table... that was quite a gamble.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
SolaceQuantum 9y ago
I also live in Buffalo and would point out I agree with the sentiment. I really wish SolarCity/Tesla would hire the workers here. Talent and good skills exist here and Buffalo is only growing. Why bring ambitious projects here and then have them go bust like this? The effect on the population here would be a lot more than that of a big city where people have a lot more opportunity and don't need to hope for one big project.
GiorgioG 9y ago
> So .. my real question, is why is this not brought to the national level for discussion to what Elon is doing to communities like Buffalo, where I live? That's my question ... Because Buffalo isn't a place that attracts much attention about anything outside of lake-effect snow and how terrible the Buffalo Bills are. These silver-bullet projects that promise to bring large number of high-paying jobs rarely pan out. Remember when Yahoo put in that data center in Lockport (just outside of Buffalo for everyone not familiar with the area)? It was touted as a big win...as of two years ago they have a whopping 98 employees (most making less than 6 figures according to Glassdoor.) https://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/blog/science-and-technology/2016/02/yahoo-job-count-pacing-well-in-lockport-as.html https://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/blog/science-and-technol... (I was born in Buffalo and lived there for 35 years before moving south.)
- JohnStudio 9y ago
  The Bills comment gave me a chuckle. :) Oddly enough its not the amount of snow, but rather the severity of it. I was born in Virginia - dad in Florida, mom in Georgia. :) I'm here because pops moved to Syracuse and I lived in Cortland area, before moving here (and a stint for college in AL). What really WAS the catalyst for downtown was not SolarCity or anything major, but the total opposite. Chris Collins (R) - despite his negative reputation - started out as our County Executive and in combination with Brian Higgins, balanced our budget and make Buffalo profitable for once after some dark economic times, while Higgins asked Bass Pro its intentions at the for Aud site (previous home of the Sabres). They (after several years of promising to build a mega-store) backed out and we created a ton of smaller projects - not continuing on the path of the "silver-bullet" approach to anchoring the downtown on. So ... Republican ideas (not dominant liberal thinking) IMHO was the catalyst. Collins comes from the business sector, much like Trump. Mind you, I am not trying to make a political point here - merely a strategic small business / economic en-devour that helped Buffalo get back on its right track. Mayor Brown is actually a good mayor. Thoughtful even .. but Collins set him up to be - again subjective opinion. I like Byron personally ... and lukewarm on his politics, however ... he has maintained great en-devours here. I just hope he goes into the East Side of Buffalo with as much as we have here as downtown. I remain optimistic that the leadership we have now, will see the benefits of making our minority populations ... better.
btian 9y ago
I don't understand your complaint. Can you explain further? Also would help if you can add links to for further reading.
rconti 9y ago
It's pretty difficult to parse some parts of your post ("did not hold up on its end for diversity of work-force" "Billion to Buffalo", etc). But I'm guessing these are not brought to the national level for discussion because none of them are unique to this company or that community?
fossuser 9y ago
I don't really understand this complaint (grew up in Buffalo myself and drove by the factory last week to check it out). The factory is in an area that's been basically abandoned since Bethlehem Steel closed up shop. A large factory with people working there is likely to increase people spending money at local places in the nearby area (restaurants, stores, apartments, etc.). The alternative for that area is a large empty field. I also knew Chris Collins as a kid growing up (he lived near me) and he seemed reasonable at the time, but his current Trump related political comments come across as ridiculous.
emusan 9y ago
Aside from maybe your first point, what do any of those points have to do with "troubles with Elon Musk"? After the second point I'm not even sure what they could have to do with Solar City in general. Your third point seems to be more of an issue with a local construction company and the last point seems to be an issue with Cuomo. Could you clarify? Am I missing some connections?
- Jesus_Jones 9y ago
  Yeah, if he hadn't merged solar city with tesla, it might have failed as a company. i'm just waiting till they merge tesla+solar city with space x. and the boring company.
m3kw9 9y ago
I’m not sure if they can discriminate and just hire locals and eliminate all others Have you ever seen that happen in the US without hearing the word lawsuit?

jsight 9y ago

Most of the articles that I have read regarding the Buffalo plant have been about what a mess that it has been. This feels like an aberration, and maybe a sign that things are improving a little bit?

JohnStudio 9y ago
I don't want to digress here, but $345 million dollars has been spent in the last 5-7 years to promote growth in our region. However, entities like 43 North (our regions YC of sorts) has failed to retain / keep new businesses that they recruit for their yearly $1million VC contest. I think all but one company has stayed here since its inception. Secondly, the dollars here have all been spent on revitalization of Main St - which if you walk the 1 block to 800 block (basically Canal Side to Theater district) - one can make the argument of gentrification (controversial on its best day). The money / jobs / growing enthusiasm isn't reflected in a minority middle class. Bottom line, that's what I personally call success of any city trying to regain momentum. By all accounts, I am an educated, white, privileged, and successful conservative living in the suburbs. However, I take the post-Civil War northern Republican view of reconstruction by giving the vision of today should be the vision of 1865 .. and that's equality of all minorities with their white counterparts. The death of Abe Lincoln put us back 50 - 70 years in that movement, and as Andrew Johnson favored the status quote of Southern Democrats / Aristocratic colonialism ... it bleeds into the inequities that minorities today. I know that's long winded, but the historical throw-back .. plays out today, in cities like Buffalo .. where all I want is my black / latino / muslim communities of Buffalo to have the same equity that I have and live as well as I do. Unfortunately ... it's just not happening, despite the welfare dollar being so dominant here in New York (which I do not detest - I just want it used more strategically in regions of poverty). Anyway .. off my soap-box.
- GiorgioG 9y ago
  > I know that's long winded, but the historical throw-back .. plays out today, in cities like Buffalo .. where all I want is my black / latino / muslim communities of Buffalo to have the same equity that I have and live as well as I do. Unfortunately ... it's just not happening, despite the welfare dollar being so dominant here in New York (which I do not detest - I just want it used more strategically in regions of poverty). I grew up in Buffalo (on the west side) among the minorities you mentioned - nothing stopped my peers (white, black, hispanic, etc) in school from succeeding except their own choices. It helps to have supportive parents, but it doesn't guarantee anything (my brother never got into any trouble but he's also never been motivated/driven either.) A friend who wound up being class valedictorian had two siblings that were both dropouts. poverty != lack of opportunity
  - JohnStudio 9y ago
    Cannot agree with you more, but poverty is still a limiting factor for a great many people that don't have "built in" survival skills.
    - GiorgioG 9y ago
      Poverty is like starting a race in last place. There's only one person who's responsible for making sure you don't finish last. No amount of welfare, coddling, etc is going to make up for lack of motivation and drive. My parents weren't poor, we were middle-class - but they lived paycheck to paycheck and that scared the daylights out of me as I got older. That's what motivated me to succeed IMO - and I'm obviously fortunate to have picked software dev as a profession. My grandparents were poor (my grandfather never learned to read - he went to work in the fields in Sicily at age 8) - that didn't stop him from working hard all of his life, buying a house, raising a family.

wmf 9y ago

Local governments never benefit from such incentives so this case isn't notable.

JohnStudio 9y ago
... and why is that? why can we ask for benefits? Another irony is the hydro-power we get from the Niagara Falls energy generation, yet we pay the highest energy costs in the country in Erie County .. we sell most of that hydro power to PA and OH. It seems rather upside down, IMHO.
- marnett 9y ago
  typically these massive corporate incentives are just a part of the corporatist strategy of pitting all American cities against each other in order to get a company to set up shop there (look no further than Amazon's scheme from this summer accepting 'applications' (per-se) from different cities for HQ2 - many suspect this is just a scheme to force Seattle into more favorable tax incentives, etc which they previously were unwilling to offer). Whether the city's leadership truly believe the corporation will aid them is up in the air, most of the time the city loses out, and the corporation leaves when the incentives dry up. If you're optimistic, than many city council members just get unlucky because it is 100% 'beneficial in theory and just not in practice'. If you're a little more skeptical, given this corporatist strong arming happens nationwide constantly, it is just the reality of corporations exploiting cities.

tw04 9y ago

> it hadn't operated at a profit in over 2 years (I believe) And how much of that is a direct result of the fact they are competing against Chinese-made panels that are directly funded by the Chinese government? There is literally no way you can have a discussion about ANY renewable energy without it being political. Either the US is going to protect US industry from Chinese goods being sold below-cost, or we're going to have to do the same thing to compete.

JohnStudio 9y ago
I don't dispute that point - however, investment in a company that can't turn a profit by a magnitude of $750 million of our tax dollars and area doesn't seem to be a wise use of dollars. That's really my overarching concern. There's no real benefit to the local economy, so why do it? That's my business mind, not my political mind on what's good or not for the environment. In the end it's tax dollars (rather high at that) that I'm putting directly into these incentives .. asking for some better investment is all.
- GiorgioG 9y ago
  > There's no real benefit to the local economy, so why do it? You're assuming the politicians have the area's best interest at heart. Start by thinking - what's in it for them? Good press for bringing in a nationally recognized brand to the area. Maybe campaign contributions from said company. Maybe you get thrown some more campaign contributions from the construction companies that get work out of the deal.
- zardo 9y ago
  The reality is, the companies have all the cards in these deals. They have more information, better information processing, and critically, they have options. Keep in mind the opportunity cost for these deals. Cut the company a tax break, or continue to not collect taxes on a vacant lot. If Buffalo actually brought cash to the table... that was quite a gamble.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

SolaceQuantum 9y ago

I also live in Buffalo and would point out I agree with the sentiment. I really wish SolarCity/Tesla would hire the workers here. Talent and good skills exist here and Buffalo is only growing. Why bring ambitious projects here and then have them go bust like this? The effect on the population here would be a lot more than that of a big city where people have a lot more opportunity and don't need to hope for one big project.

GiorgioG 9y ago

> So .. my real question, is why is this not brought to the national level for discussion to what Elon is doing to communities like Buffalo, where I live? That's my question ... Because Buffalo isn't a place that attracts much attention about anything outside of lake-effect snow and how terrible the Buffalo Bills are. These silver-bullet projects that promise to bring large number of high-paying jobs rarely pan out. Remember when Yahoo put in that data center in Lockport (just outside of Buffalo for everyone not familiar with the area)? It was touted as a big win...as of two years ago they have a whopping 98 employees (most making less than 6 figures according to Glassdoor.) https://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/blog/science-and-technology/2016/02/yahoo-job-count-pacing-well-in-lockport-as.html https://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/blog/science-and-technol... (I was born in Buffalo and lived there for 35 years before moving south.)

JohnStudio 9y ago
The Bills comment gave me a chuckle. :) Oddly enough its not the amount of snow, but rather the severity of it. I was born in Virginia - dad in Florida, mom in Georgia. :) I'm here because pops moved to Syracuse and I lived in Cortland area, before moving here (and a stint for college in AL). What really WAS the catalyst for downtown was not SolarCity or anything major, but the total opposite. Chris Collins (R) - despite his negative reputation - started out as our County Executive and in combination with Brian Higgins, balanced our budget and make Buffalo profitable for once after some dark economic times, while Higgins asked Bass Pro its intentions at the for Aud site (previous home of the Sabres). They (after several years of promising to build a mega-store) backed out and we created a ton of smaller projects - not continuing on the path of the "silver-bullet" approach to anchoring the downtown on. So ... Republican ideas (not dominant liberal thinking) IMHO was the catalyst. Collins comes from the business sector, much like Trump. Mind you, I am not trying to make a political point here - merely a strategic small business / economic en-devour that helped Buffalo get back on its right track. Mayor Brown is actually a good mayor. Thoughtful even .. but Collins set him up to be - again subjective opinion. I like Byron personally ... and lukewarm on his politics, however ... he has maintained great en-devours here. I just hope he goes into the East Side of Buffalo with as much as we have here as downtown. I remain optimistic that the leadership we have now, will see the benefits of making our minority populations ... better.

btian 9y ago

I don't understand your complaint. Can you explain further? Also would help if you can add links to for further reading.

rconti 9y ago

It's pretty difficult to parse some parts of your post ("did not hold up on its end for diversity of work-force" "Billion to Buffalo", etc). But I'm guessing these are not brought to the national level for discussion because none of them are unique to this company or that community?

fossuser 9y ago

I don't really understand this complaint (grew up in Buffalo myself and drove by the factory last week to check it out). The factory is in an area that's been basically abandoned since Bethlehem Steel closed up shop. A large factory with people working there is likely to increase people spending money at local places in the nearby area (restaurants, stores, apartments, etc.). The alternative for that area is a large empty field. I also knew Chris Collins as a kid growing up (he lived near me) and he seemed reasonable at the time, but his current Trump related political comments come across as ridiculous.

emusan 9y ago

Aside from maybe your first point, what do any of those points have to do with "troubles with Elon Musk"? After the second point I'm not even sure what they could have to do with Solar City in general. Your third point seems to be more of an issue with a local construction company and the last point seems to be an issue with Cuomo. Could you clarify? Am I missing some connections?

Jesus_Jones 9y ago
Yeah, if he hadn't merged solar city with tesla, it might have failed as a company. i'm just waiting till they merge tesla+solar city with space x. and the boring company.

m3kw9 9y ago

I’m not sure if they can discriminate and just hire locals and eliminate all others Have you ever seen that happen in the US without hearing the word lawsuit?