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This is just back of the envelope math here, but I think it will cost the US a significant amount more dollars per fatality reduction. We have a huge number mor

This is just back of the envelope math here, but I think it will cost the US a significant amount more dollars per fatality reduction. We have a huge number more cars and a very different culture and driving mindset. One relative small country with a pretty singular culture and a much, much smaller amount of roads is just going to have an easier time addressing the issue. It is still worth pursuing, but the scale of it is tremendous. I am hoping technology can outpace the politics myself.

weavie 9y ago
Could you expound on how the culture and mindset is different? I can imagine what it would be, but don't want to just jump to stereotypes..
- DarronWyke 9y ago
  Not the OP, but my take on it would be that every State is different from each other, and even within the State there's differences. Take a look at where I live, Texas. Dallas will be different than Austin which will be different than Houston. Any metropolitan area, even within the same borders, will have different culture and mindset than another. Compare that to another State and the divide only widens. Most countries are fairly homogenous, which lends itself to a singular-ish mindset and culture. The US is not really one country, it's a melting pot (remember that word from social studies?) of many different cultures and ideas. That's one of the big reasons why we can't really be compared to any other country on many topics. Every locale is different, in many cases fundamentally, and that's part of the point of the Federal-State system we have.
  - bryanlarsen 9y ago
    Stockholm and Lapland have significantly different cultures, infrastructure requirements, populations et cetera. We can argue which has the bigger difference, but we should be able to agree that the differences are similar in kind.
    - mcguire 9y ago
      Lapland (Sweden) is about 100,000 km^2, about the same as Kentucky, although if you add Finland's Lapland, you something much more comparable to Wyoming, which is a good match density wise, too: about 2 / km^2.
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    > Most countries are fairly homogenous, which lends itself to a singular-ish mindset and culture. I see this stated a lot by folks in Europe vs. the US discussions, but having visited both I'm pretty baffled by it. Switzerland has four national languages - hop on a train for an hour or two and you may go from French to German areas. The folks in Paris would laugh at the idea that they've got the same culture as Provence. Same with northern vs. southern Italy, Moscow vs. Siberia, etc.
    - rhino369 9y ago
      America may be made of up people with anncestry from all over the world, but we have a very homogenous culture. The only major differences are urban, suburuban and rural, but rural people in California are pretty similar to rural people in Virigina.
      - DarronWyke 9y ago
        I'd disagree. I've been to both. Rural California has a very different mindset than say the rural parts of the Appalachians. Out there, there's a fierce push for independence and self-sufficiency. A lot of that comes from just regional outlooks on life, government, rights, and more. Having been from California, the whole "Southern Hospitality" thing surprised me and just the general way people treat random strangers, as a very simple example.
- ebikelaw 9y ago
  You’re reading the cultural difference right now. The story is about a dead kid but we are invited mainly to sympathize with the perpetrator. We are also expected to take on faith the “he darted out of nowhere” narrative that is very common in fatal collisions where the victim is unable to testify. Finally, we are treated to a dose of the “it could have been any of us” windshield perspective that prevents the USA from having any kind of fairness or justice for traffic violence.
  - deleted 9y ago
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  - jessaustin 9y ago
    Yeah, if the child had been 7yo rather than 4yo one rather suspects he would have been accused of riding a bicycle, putting him firmly beyond the pale of what a driver in a hurry should have to worry about...
- tinco 9y ago
  In Europe you generally have to be 18 to get your drivers license, and rigorous study is required to obtain a drivers license. 40-50 hours of driving with an instructor (depending on your talent), and a test that I as a reasonably intelligent person had to take three times to pass. Note that this makes getting your license fairly expensive (on the order of 1500 to 2000 euro), some parents save up for this like American parents save for their childrens college, others simply work a part time job or wait until they've finished college to get the license. I feel that the way the US is structured this alone makes it infeasible to implement these requirements, you can't be 30 and not have a license in US suburbs.
  - adventured 9y ago
    It's infeasible for a lot of reasons. The €1500 cost would be meaningless in the US for most people. The median parents purchase a vehicle for their children directly or otherwise assist them in acquiring one, at far greater cost. That level of license cost wouldn't have any impact for the average person. Where those variations would have a huge impact, is for poor people, overwhelmingly black and hispanic in the US. Any attempt to implement that licensing approach would be called out as being racist or otherwise discriminatory. I'm not exaggerating or making light of it, I'm being dead serious. That's exactly what would occur. I'll leave it to others to debate whether it would in fact be racist, I'm sure some (most?) of that opinion is determined by one's position in society and how each person feels discriminated against or not. The US has a substantial bifurcation between the top ~60% and the bottom ~40%, roughly speaking. The top 60% is overwhelmingly white + asian. The gap between access to quality driving instruction / education, the ability to pay licensing costs of €1500, etc. would separate along that division (ie white/asian and black/hispanic). It would impact poorer people in a significant way, and barely impact non poor people. If the US were to adopt a stricter approach, to convince everyone that it was fair, it'd be necessary to put meaningful resources into providing greater driving education opportunities to poorer people, and probably adjusting the licensing cost based on household income (if your family makes $30,000 the fee is $250; if your family makes $90,000 the fee is $1500 or whatever).
  - zuppy 9y ago
    Depends of what you mean by Europe... For example, in Romania it's a few hundred euros (~300-400€).
bryanlarsen 9y ago
If the US has more cars per capita and more fatalities per capita, that increases the denominator, meaning that these policies would be cheaper per fatality and per car than they are in Sweden.
- deleted 9y ago
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Broken_Hippo 9y ago
Save for the interstate highway infrastructure, most roads are done at the state or county level anyway. If you simply start doing this stuff a roads are upgraded (some can be done now and might bring in money), you aren't really spending lots more. You can change the driving culture and mindset, starting by designing roads that generally cause folks to drive slower, implemented at next upgrade. You can more strictly enforce driving laws, especially things like speeding or being distracted. Revamp curves that have lots of accidents. Offer larger access to public transportation.
- pixl97 9y ago
  > Broken_Hippo 1 hour ago [-] Save for the interstate highway infrastructure, most roads are done at the state or county level anyway. If you simply start doing this stuff a roads are upgraded (some can be done now and might bring in money), you aren't really spending lots more. You can change the driving culture and mindset, starting by designing roads that generally cause folks to drive slower, implemented at next upgrade You mean you can get voted out of office for implementing these policies.
  - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
    Haha. Very possible, but also depends if people feel inconvenienced enough to be angry afterwards. If it also improves traffic flow, it might be a win most ways.
    - pnathan 9y ago
      Read up on the dynamic tolling political fights. Whoo boy, when you start actually charging people for driving (or inconvieniencing them in any fashion), the flamewars get pretty hot pretty fast.
      - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
        See, that's the thing. There are a lot of thing we can do without actually charging folks outside of tax dollars. Take one of the more simple ones: Stricter traffic policing, especially in neighborhoods and people-prone (and therefore pedestrian-prone) areas. People can avoid any fines, and we can even pre-warn folks about it. Now, some folks will be upset they can't go as fast and stuff, but they get used to it. Some things aren't even obvious to folks, like roads designed to decrease speed. Generally, they are narrower rather than wider. I'm not sure folks will put the two together. Roundabouts? Well-timed streetlights, so long as you are going the speed limit? The first folks complain about, the second gets folks to go the speed limit. The thing I'd personally implement that would get outcry is increased drivers education, which would increase cost. Id' have everyone take an actual course unless they have previously held a license in recent years. I think some exception could probably be made for farm families (special license for equipment and off-road vehicles) and quell the outcry a little bit.

weavie 9y ago

Could you expound on how the culture and mindset is different? I can imagine what it would be, but don't want to just jump to stereotypes..

DarronWyke 9y ago
Not the OP, but my take on it would be that every State is different from each other, and even within the State there's differences. Take a look at where I live, Texas. Dallas will be different than Austin which will be different than Houston. Any metropolitan area, even within the same borders, will have different culture and mindset than another. Compare that to another State and the divide only widens. Most countries are fairly homogenous, which lends itself to a singular-ish mindset and culture. The US is not really one country, it's a melting pot (remember that word from social studies?) of many different cultures and ideas. That's one of the big reasons why we can't really be compared to any other country on many topics. Every locale is different, in many cases fundamentally, and that's part of the point of the Federal-State system we have.
- bryanlarsen 9y ago
  Stockholm and Lapland have significantly different cultures, infrastructure requirements, populations et cetera. We can argue which has the bigger difference, but we should be able to agree that the differences are similar in kind.
  - mcguire 9y ago
    Lapland (Sweden) is about 100,000 km^2, about the same as Kentucky, although if you add Finland's Lapland, you something much more comparable to Wyoming, which is a good match density wise, too: about 2 / km^2.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  > Most countries are fairly homogenous, which lends itself to a singular-ish mindset and culture. I see this stated a lot by folks in Europe vs. the US discussions, but having visited both I'm pretty baffled by it. Switzerland has four national languages - hop on a train for an hour or two and you may go from French to German areas. The folks in Paris would laugh at the idea that they've got the same culture as Provence. Same with northern vs. southern Italy, Moscow vs. Siberia, etc.
  - rhino369 9y ago
    America may be made of up people with anncestry from all over the world, but we have a very homogenous culture. The only major differences are urban, suburuban and rural, but rural people in California are pretty similar to rural people in Virigina.
    - DarronWyke 9y ago
      I'd disagree. I've been to both. Rural California has a very different mindset than say the rural parts of the Appalachians. Out there, there's a fierce push for independence and self-sufficiency. A lot of that comes from just regional outlooks on life, government, rights, and more. Having been from California, the whole "Southern Hospitality" thing surprised me and just the general way people treat random strangers, as a very simple example.
ebikelaw 9y ago
You’re reading the cultural difference right now. The story is about a dead kid but we are invited mainly to sympathize with the perpetrator. We are also expected to take on faith the “he darted out of nowhere” narrative that is very common in fatal collisions where the victim is unable to testify. Finally, we are treated to a dose of the “it could have been any of us” windshield perspective that prevents the USA from having any kind of fairness or justice for traffic violence.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- jessaustin 9y ago
  Yeah, if the child had been 7yo rather than 4yo one rather suspects he would have been accused of riding a bicycle, putting him firmly beyond the pale of what a driver in a hurry should have to worry about...
tinco 9y ago
In Europe you generally have to be 18 to get your drivers license, and rigorous study is required to obtain a drivers license. 40-50 hours of driving with an instructor (depending on your talent), and a test that I as a reasonably intelligent person had to take three times to pass. Note that this makes getting your license fairly expensive (on the order of 1500 to 2000 euro), some parents save up for this like American parents save for their childrens college, others simply work a part time job or wait until they've finished college to get the license. I feel that the way the US is structured this alone makes it infeasible to implement these requirements, you can't be 30 and not have a license in US suburbs.
- adventured 9y ago
  It's infeasible for a lot of reasons. The €1500 cost would be meaningless in the US for most people. The median parents purchase a vehicle for their children directly or otherwise assist them in acquiring one, at far greater cost. That level of license cost wouldn't have any impact for the average person. Where those variations would have a huge impact, is for poor people, overwhelmingly black and hispanic in the US. Any attempt to implement that licensing approach would be called out as being racist or otherwise discriminatory. I'm not exaggerating or making light of it, I'm being dead serious. That's exactly what would occur. I'll leave it to others to debate whether it would in fact be racist, I'm sure some (most?) of that opinion is determined by one's position in society and how each person feels discriminated against or not. The US has a substantial bifurcation between the top ~60% and the bottom ~40%, roughly speaking. The top 60% is overwhelmingly white + asian. The gap between access to quality driving instruction / education, the ability to pay licensing costs of €1500, etc. would separate along that division (ie white/asian and black/hispanic). It would impact poorer people in a significant way, and barely impact non poor people. If the US were to adopt a stricter approach, to convince everyone that it was fair, it'd be necessary to put meaningful resources into providing greater driving education opportunities to poorer people, and probably adjusting the licensing cost based on household income (if your family makes $30,000 the fee is $250; if your family makes $90,000 the fee is $1500 or whatever).
- zuppy 9y ago
  Depends of what you mean by Europe... For example, in Romania it's a few hundred euros (~300-400€).

bryanlarsen 9y ago

If the US has more cars per capita and more fatalities per capita, that increases the denominator, meaning that these policies would be cheaper per fatality and per car than they are in Sweden.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

Broken_Hippo 9y ago

Save for the interstate highway infrastructure, most roads are done at the state or county level anyway. If you simply start doing this stuff a roads are upgraded (some can be done now and might bring in money), you aren't really spending lots more. You can change the driving culture and mindset, starting by designing roads that generally cause folks to drive slower, implemented at next upgrade. You can more strictly enforce driving laws, especially things like speeding or being distracted. Revamp curves that have lots of accidents. Offer larger access to public transportation.

pixl97 9y ago
> Broken_Hippo 1 hour ago [-] Save for the interstate highway infrastructure, most roads are done at the state or county level anyway. If you simply start doing this stuff a roads are upgraded (some can be done now and might bring in money), you aren't really spending lots more. You can change the driving culture and mindset, starting by designing roads that generally cause folks to drive slower, implemented at next upgrade You mean you can get voted out of office for implementing these policies.
- Broken_Hippo 9y ago
  Haha. Very possible, but also depends if people feel inconvenienced enough to be angry afterwards. If it also improves traffic flow, it might be a win most ways.
  - pnathan 9y ago
    Read up on the dynamic tolling political fights. Whoo boy, when you start actually charging people for driving (or inconvieniencing them in any fashion), the flamewars get pretty hot pretty fast.
    - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
      See, that's the thing. There are a lot of thing we can do without actually charging folks outside of tax dollars. Take one of the more simple ones: Stricter traffic policing, especially in neighborhoods and people-prone (and therefore pedestrian-prone) areas. People can avoid any fines, and we can even pre-warn folks about it. Now, some folks will be upset they can't go as fast and stuff, but they get used to it. Some things aren't even obvious to folks, like roads designed to decrease speed. Generally, they are narrower rather than wider. I'm not sure folks will put the two together. Roundabouts? Well-timed streetlights, so long as you are going the speed limit? The first folks complain about, the second gets folks to go the speed limit. The thing I'd personally implement that would get outcry is increased drivers education, which would increase cost. Id' have everyone take an actual course unless they have previously held a license in recent years. I think some exception could probably be made for farm families (special license for equipment and off-road vehicles) and quell the outcry a little bit.