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It would be mind boggling if pain killers were connected to dropping male fertility. It might even explain why so many cultures had rites to male adulthood inv

by MollyR 9y ago

It would be mind boggling if pain killers were connected to dropping male fertility. It might even explain why so many cultures had rites to male adulthood involving extreme pain.

nisten 9y ago
Would that bring a testosterone boost then, or like milder balls or something?
kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago
I sometimes imagine, with horror, what would happen if after 500 years of progress, humanity were to realize that almost all cultural practices they painfully, one by one, undid, were all sensible to begin with for reasons that humanity didn't previously understand.
- rdruxn 9y ago
  What an interesting writing prompt
  - lloeki 9y ago
    Indeed, and submitted[0] right away. [0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/WritingPrompts/comments/7p2ubq/wp_a_group_of_scientists_and_philosophers_realize/?st=JC6UO8ZG&sh=e56b9ee7 https://www.reddit.com/r/WritingPrompts/comments/7p2ubq/wp_a...
- Chaebixi 9y ago
  > I sometimes imagine, with horror, what would happen if after 500 years of progress, humanity were to realize that almost all cultural practices they painfully, one by one, undid, were all sensible to begin with for reasons that humanity didn't previously understand. Especially since modern cultural change seems to have a tendency to be driven by the youngest politically-aware cohorts. Not a lot of time to acquire wisdom that might prevent that, if you're so young you haven't even collected enough knowledge yet.
- inciampati 9y ago
  Beautifully written. This thought that I have often half-pondered has now become unified and unforgettable. Thank you.
- acchow 9y ago
  “If the stars should appear one night in a thousand years, how would men believe and adore; and preserve for many generations the remembrance of the city of God”
  - deadmetheny 9y ago
    Or, alternatively, you'll be driven mad by the sight and your entire civilization will collapse. http://www.astro.sunysb.edu/fwalter/AST389/TEXTS/Nightfall.htm http://www.astro.sunysb.edu/fwalter/AST389/TEXTS/Nightfall.h...
- Dylan16807 9y ago
  Tiny positive effects are not worth the downsides of most of those. So even if that's somehow true it's okay.
- Retra 9y ago
  You're just describing evolution. We almost assuredly don't practice most of the habits of whatever sludge we evolved from, regardless of how useful it is to sludge to continue such practices. And if we stop doing things, we will probably do so for reasons just as valid as why our ancestors started them.
- User23 9y ago
  This is basically the position of the alt-right, neoreaction, and similar "movements."
disconnected 9y ago
> It might even explain why so many cultures had rites to male adulthood involving extreme pain. Right. And a notable trend among those cultures is that they are all nearly extinct. So much for their fertility. Of course this observation could biased due to my own ignorance. I only remember, like, 3 such cultures, and they were your typical African/Amazonian/Aboriginal tribes that still live in near-neolithic conditions. Is there any industrialized culture that still follows such rituals?
- jgust 9y ago
  See: The NFL
  - disconnected 9y ago
    When I think "painful initiation ritual", I think "glove made out of bullet ants" [1] not "organized sporting event in which everyone is wearing armor and hurting someone badly is grounds for stopping the game and rushing him/her to the hospital". Even if you pick something like Boxing or similar contact sports where the goal is to intentionally hurt your opponent, it is still a far-cry from sticking your hand into a whiting mass of animals that have the most painful bite ever recorded. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraponera_clavata#Initiation_rites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraponera_clavata#Initiation_...
    - badosu 9y ago
      Ironically maybe having a glove full of ants once in a while is safer than shocking your head repeatedly every week for years...
    - pas 9y ago
      Isn't that inferal tree in Australia more painful?
      - guitarbill 9y ago
        Pedantic: it's a tree so it doesn't bite? But yeah, the gympie gympie [0] sounds horrible - potentially too horrible/long-lasting effects for a rite of passage? Luckily, it's in Australia! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrocnide_moroides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrocnide_moroides
palgraham 9y ago
are you Dwight from the office?
cookiecaper 9y ago
Where can I read about "dropping male fertility" as a medical thing? Just taking a blind guess, as someone who doesn't follow the medical field, I would suggest that increases in "infertility" are much more likely to be caused by the older age at which people are becoming interested in "fertilization" than environmental factors causing biological malfunctions. In other words, it's not that reproductive systems are breaking faster, it's just that people aren't using them until they're worse for wear.
- badosu 9y ago
  There are some metrics that are related to fertility like ejaculation volume and sperm motility[0]. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_motility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_motility
- sreaching 9y ago
  testosterone levels have declined in most developed countries when comparing similar age cohorts over time. See the following studies: from Finland - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23161753 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23161753. from USA - https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/92/1/196/2598434 https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/92/1/196/2598434 it is a bit of a medical mystery because the trend cannot be fully explained by lifestyle factors like weight gain.
  - 52-6F-62 9y ago
    This discussion came up sometime within the past few months. It was really interesting. I recall mentioning some research into the effects of food/organics preservatives (namely Parabens) and low testosterone: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12419695 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12419695
edmccard 9y ago
>It might even explain why so many cultures had rites to male adulthood involving extreme pain. Unless you believe that the rites were created to address the problem of "one day, there will be analgesics with antiandrogen effects, so we'll have a few centuries of practice at enduring extreme pain", then I don't see how there could be any connection.
User23 9y ago
You are absolutely correct. Pain is far more than a simple signaling mechanism to tell you to take your hand off the stove. One of its more interesting applications is as a pathway to mystical experiences. In the Christian tradition for example one uses one's own pain to come into a kind of spiritual alignment with Christ's experience and in that way become closer to God. I'm not particularly familiar with other spiritual traditions, but I'd be shocked if every single major one doesn't have some kind of mystical algetic praxis.

by MollyR 9y ago

It would be mind boggling if pain killers were connected to dropping male fertility. It might even explain why so many cultures had rites to male adulthood involving extreme pain.

nisten 9y ago

Would that bring a testosterone boost then, or like milder balls or something?

kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago

I sometimes imagine, with horror, what would happen if after 500 years of progress, humanity were to realize that almost all cultural practices they painfully, one by one, undid, were all sensible to begin with for reasons that humanity didn't previously understand.

rdruxn 9y ago
What an interesting writing prompt
- lloeki 9y ago
  Indeed, and submitted[0] right away. [0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/WritingPrompts/comments/7p2ubq/wp_a_group_of_scientists_and_philosophers_realize/?st=JC6UO8ZG&sh=e56b9ee7 https://www.reddit.com/r/WritingPrompts/comments/7p2ubq/wp_a...
Chaebixi 9y ago
> I sometimes imagine, with horror, what would happen if after 500 years of progress, humanity were to realize that almost all cultural practices they painfully, one by one, undid, were all sensible to begin with for reasons that humanity didn't previously understand. Especially since modern cultural change seems to have a tendency to be driven by the youngest politically-aware cohorts. Not a lot of time to acquire wisdom that might prevent that, if you're so young you haven't even collected enough knowledge yet.
inciampati 9y ago
Beautifully written. This thought that I have often half-pondered has now become unified and unforgettable. Thank you.
acchow 9y ago
“If the stars should appear one night in a thousand years, how would men believe and adore; and preserve for many generations the remembrance of the city of God”
- deadmetheny 9y ago
  Or, alternatively, you'll be driven mad by the sight and your entire civilization will collapse. http://www.astro.sunysb.edu/fwalter/AST389/TEXTS/Nightfall.htm http://www.astro.sunysb.edu/fwalter/AST389/TEXTS/Nightfall.h...
Dylan16807 9y ago
Tiny positive effects are not worth the downsides of most of those. So even if that's somehow true it's okay.
Retra 9y ago
You're just describing evolution. We almost assuredly don't practice most of the habits of whatever sludge we evolved from, regardless of how useful it is to sludge to continue such practices. And if we stop doing things, we will probably do so for reasons just as valid as why our ancestors started them.
User23 9y ago
This is basically the position of the alt-right, neoreaction, and similar "movements."

disconnected 9y ago

> It might even explain why so many cultures had rites to male adulthood involving extreme pain. Right. And a notable trend among those cultures is that they are all nearly extinct. So much for their fertility. Of course this observation could biased due to my own ignorance. I only remember, like, 3 such cultures, and they were your typical African/Amazonian/Aboriginal tribes that still live in near-neolithic conditions. Is there any industrialized culture that still follows such rituals?

jgust 9y ago
See: The NFL
- disconnected 9y ago
  When I think "painful initiation ritual", I think "glove made out of bullet ants" [1] not "organized sporting event in which everyone is wearing armor and hurting someone badly is grounds for stopping the game and rushing him/her to the hospital". Even if you pick something like Boxing or similar contact sports where the goal is to intentionally hurt your opponent, it is still a far-cry from sticking your hand into a whiting mass of animals that have the most painful bite ever recorded. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraponera_clavata#Initiation_rites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraponera_clavata#Initiation_...
  - badosu 9y ago
    Ironically maybe having a glove full of ants once in a while is safer than shocking your head repeatedly every week for years...
  - pas 9y ago
    Isn't that inferal tree in Australia more painful?
    - guitarbill 9y ago
      Pedantic: it's a tree so it doesn't bite? But yeah, the gympie gympie [0] sounds horrible - potentially too horrible/long-lasting effects for a rite of passage? Luckily, it's in Australia! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrocnide_moroides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrocnide_moroides

palgraham 9y ago

are you Dwight from the office?

cookiecaper 9y ago

Where can I read about "dropping male fertility" as a medical thing? Just taking a blind guess, as someone who doesn't follow the medical field, I would suggest that increases in "infertility" are much more likely to be caused by the older age at which people are becoming interested in "fertilization" than environmental factors causing biological malfunctions. In other words, it's not that reproductive systems are breaking faster, it's just that people aren't using them until they're worse for wear.

badosu 9y ago
There are some metrics that are related to fertility like ejaculation volume and sperm motility[0]. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_motility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_motility
sreaching 9y ago
testosterone levels have declined in most developed countries when comparing similar age cohorts over time. See the following studies: from Finland - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23161753 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23161753. from USA - https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/92/1/196/2598434 https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/92/1/196/2598434 it is a bit of a medical mystery because the trend cannot be fully explained by lifestyle factors like weight gain.
- 52-6F-62 9y ago
  This discussion came up sometime within the past few months. It was really interesting. I recall mentioning some research into the effects of food/organics preservatives (namely Parabens) and low testosterone: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12419695 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12419695

edmccard 9y ago

>It might even explain why so many cultures had rites to male adulthood involving extreme pain. Unless you believe that the rites were created to address the problem of "one day, there will be analgesics with antiandrogen effects, so we'll have a few centuries of practice at enduring extreme pain", then I don't see how there could be any connection.

User23 9y ago

You are absolutely correct. Pain is far more than a simple signaling mechanism to tell you to take your hand off the stove. One of its more interesting applications is as a pathway to mystical experiences. In the Christian tradition for example one uses one's own pain to come into a kind of spiritual alignment with Christ's experience and in that way become closer to God. I'm not particularly familiar with other spiritual traditions, but I'd be shocked if every single major one doesn't have some kind of mystical algetic praxis.