20 ms·

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the Ja

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organizations, trying to sue Google and retire off the proceeds, or leaving tech and becoming a noname blue collar or a freelancer forever hiding his face. I hope they will settle for an amount sufficient for retirement and the dude's life won't get ruined due to a stupid political game he didn't even realize he was playing.

carrja99 9y ago
> So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organizations Isn't that what he's been doing through his twitter account where he muses whether people join the KKK because they have cool titles? Or his interviews with people like Milo?
- xeeeeeeeeeeenu 9y ago
  >Isn't that what he's been doing through his twitter account where he muses whether people join the KKK because they have cool titles? That was just a joke, stop pretending he is a neo-nazi.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - geofft 9y ago
    I'm very tired of this "joking" thing. Neo-Nazis (and historical Nazis before them) use jokes to cover their actual, earnest beliefs, and then go "it's just a joke bro" to shield themselves from criticism from those who disagree while gaining earnest support from those who agree. From the Daily Stormer style guide: "The unindoctrinated should not be able to tell if we are joking or not. There should also be a conscious awareness of mocking stereotypes of hateful racists. I usually think of this as self-deprecating humor - I am a racist making fun of stereotype of racists, because I don't take myself super-seriously. "This is obviously a ploy and I actually do want to gas kikes. But that's neither here nor there." I admit that he's almost certainly not playing by the alt-right's playbook - but he should be smart enough to realize that he's playing into the alt-right's playbook, and if he's not that smart, he doesn't have any business getting a job at Google or Microsoft. There are absolutely ways to express the points he's trying to make without letting yourself be turned into an alt-right poster-boy (and they're also more effective at convincing his ostensible target audience, namely senior decision-makers in large tech companies).
    - xeeeeeeeeeeenu 9y ago
      > I'm very tired of this "joking" thing. Neo-Nazis (and historical Nazis before them) use jokes to cover their actual, earnest beliefs, and then go "it's just a joke bro" to shield themselves from criticism from those who disagree while gaining earnest support from those who agree. From the Daily Stormer style guide: So basically your whole argument is that no one is allowed to joke because that's what nazis are doing? Let me quote his whole tweet: >The KKK is horrible and I don't support them in any way, but can we admit that their internal title names are cool, e.g. "Grand Wizard"? There are no shades of gray. This joke isn't even remotely offensive. The only reason why anyone could think otherwise is their prejudice against Damore.
      - geofft 9y ago
        > So basically your whole argument is that no one is allowed to joke because that's what nazis are doing? No, that is not my argument. This is about the second time in one week where I've posted "x was a bad idea in context", and someone else has replied with "So, your argument is no one should be allowed to do x ever?", so clearly I am being very bad at communicating. As with last time, I'll try to explain my position in a little more detail in the hope that it will help. My position is that, if you are already at risk of being an alt-right poster-boy (thanks to having been forced to do interviews with alt-right YouTubers because nobody else would interview you fairly, or something), and if you are not actually a supporter of the alt-right position, it is probably a good idea to avoid doing and saying things that give the further impression that you are and want to be an alt-right poster boy. (If you do want to be a supporter of the alt-right position, by all means, more power to you, but then arguments about joking are moot - you're an intentional and happy member of the alt-right and we can continue discussions having established that. But for now I'm assuming that's not the case.) This is a different position from "Don't tell jokes," or "Don't tell jokes about the KKK," or even "Don't tell jokes that make it sound like you support the KKK," or even "Don't make non-joking commentary that supports certain things the KKK is doing." A brief aside there - I don't understand how that tweet is a joke. I think it's meant earnestly, and I think it stands up as a piece of earnest commentary and I think it does him and his position a disservice to read it as a joke. The internal title names are cool. That's why they picked them. The KKK wanted, and still wants, to attract membership, and cool-sounding titles are something that pushes people from neutral to excited. This isn't a particularly novel observation, but it's certainly a true one. (And the KKK isn't alone; plenty of secret societies of varying levels of racism have done similar things through history.) The job of smart, non-KKK-sympathizing people is to recognize that this is a tactic, and to go find some other less racist outlet for your desire to be called "Grand Wizard," like tabletop gaming, instead of expressing approval for the KKK's marketing tactics. This is also a different position from "That joke is offensive." I did not claim that the joke was offensive, nor did anyone else, and I think "Actually, that's not offensive and you're wrong because you were offended" is a terribly fallacious rhetorical strategy when nobody has claimed to be offended.
- MBCook 9y ago
  But can he sustain that? Or is he something of a ‘flavor of the month’ that people will stop carrying about in a year or two? Is this just an attempt to extend his relevance a bit longer?
  - hkmurakami 9y ago
    If his settlement is 7 figures, he can retire off of that.
    - MBCook 9y ago
      Certainly. But it doesn’t seem like he has a case to me. He’s basically trying to get a new protected class created to protect actions that clearly constituted creating a hostile work space based on long established precedent. Whatever you think of him it seems like a REALLY big hurdle. And that’s assuming no ‘mandatory binding arbitration’ issues from his work contract. Even if he wins this could take a very long time (and trips up and down the levels of courts).
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > He’s basically trying to get a new protected class created No, he's not; none of race or sex discrimination (both under federal and state law), nor political coercion (under California state law) are new protections. > to protect actions that clearly constituted creating a hostile work space based on long established precedent. That would be a problem in a direct action suit over his firing, but what he has actually filed is a class action alleging a pattern and policy of discrimination on three different prohibited bases. While there are challenges in doing that, they are different than the challenges in a direct action.
        MBCook 9y ago
        I don’t think he has a chance of proving he’s being discriminated against because he’s a man (way too many guys at google) or white (same issue). I think his only hope is persecution for his ‘belief’, which isn’t a religion and this would be a new protection (IANAL, unsurprisingly). I didn’t see the class action bit. I wonder if he can even find enough people to join him to be certified as a class. He has a giant ‘don’t hire me’ target on him now (weather you think just or not)... will people want to throw their lot in with him and risk the same label?
- korzun 9y ago
  People like you should be prosecuted for spreading misinformation.
thenayr 9y ago
Or, you know, he could realize what a monumental fuck up he made and try and make a difference for the better. The dude literally let himself be paraded around by the alt-right and neo-nazi groups as a hero. -----------EDIT below--------------- Zero sympathy for this dirtbag. He's un-hireable because he deserves to be. Future advice for Damore wannabees When alt-right Twitter agrees with your world-views, you're doing something WRONG.
- DoofusOfDeath 9y ago
  I'm not sure how many people have the PR-savvy needed to avoid that kind of problem. So even if the consequences of not avoiding that landmine are awful, I'm not sure it's fair to castigate him for that. (N.B.: I haven't looked carefully into how he handled that affair, so my comment might be misinformed.)
  - pm90 9y ago
    Most people have enough sense to not post something so inflammatory in an office system where it can be accessed by random coworkers. He could have been more nuanced about it but the controversy seems intentional and deliberate and he absolutely deserves the whole shitstorm he's facing.
    - rainbowmverse 9y ago
      I don't know where exactly I heard it, but: email like it might be read aloud in a deposition.
  - ebbv 9y ago
    The fact that literally nobody else is famous for doing something so breathtakingly stupid tells us that basically everybody else is not as stupid as this guy.
- viridian 9y ago
  I largely agreed with the memo. I have coworkers and friends who fell on either side of the camp, but more in the agree camp than disagree. Should we just purge half the developers in Columbus for Silicon Valley wrongthink? edit: looks like thenayr updated his post a couple of times since my reply. When written only the first two lines were present.
dmourati 9y ago
I hope the Google lawyers make an example out of him and he gets nothing.
- mbrumlow 9y ago
  The problem is Google at all levels publicly misrepresented his arguments. Google replied with a knee jerk reaction publicly. If anything Google will settle because the proof of misrepresentation is in James's favor. Sure there are lots of things you could and Google could have argued. But they chose to respond to what had to be either a different paper or their emotions.
coloneltcb 9y ago
he could be CTO of Breitbart
- dopamean 9y ago
  This actually seems like a very realistic outcome.
  - splintercell 9y ago
    Gab.ai would hire him in a minute.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  Or Cambridge Analytica or Project Veritas or Fox News or Sky or the Wall Street Journal or Heritage Foundation, it's not that small a pool, off the top of my head.
threeseed 9y ago
No that just isn't how life does or should work. You make mistakes in an industry and you own the impacts to your reputation. He has done serious harm to the work of so many by his actions and absolutely deserves to own the consequences. And let's be serious here he has zero chance of winning against Google.
- TheRealPomax 9y ago
  You seem unfamiliar with the power of litigation. The case won't be about "him being fired", but about showing there is any pattern for bias in Google with respects to the three stated criteria. And if they can show that bias exists, then still without making this about him, specifically, the court can be asked to apply punitive measures against google (which their client "happens to benefit from, being part of the group that Google has demonstrated bias against"). Initial filing for a court case is crucial for establishing what we're actually sueing over, and this will be an interesting one, because the chances of his legal team winning this one are definitely non-zero.
  - threeseed 9y ago
    Explain to me where Google asks when you are hired whether you are white, male or conservative. I have worked for a dozen Fortune 500 sized companies now and not once has it ever come up. He wasn't fired for any of those aspects anyway. He was fired because he chose to act in an unprofessional manner.
    - yazaddaruvala 9y ago
      Regardless of our personal feelings about the matter, the sad fact is, it might be as simple as the lawyers finding female Googlers who have public statements remotely anti-male who were not fired. I am not a lawyer but that, while trivial, might be enough for a court to rule against Google.
      - MollyR 9y ago
        That and also There was also google managers talking about having personal blacklists on twitter. It's why I think this google will settle with Damore for a very high amount, because discovery will not be good for them.
lilycaliber 9y ago
Ummm very interesting "trick" comment youve made here! [but youve outed your true intentions. LOL] HE HAS AN IMMENSE OppORTUNITY if he wins a settlement, to START UP HIS OWN COMPETING OPEN SOURCE SEARCH ENGINE ENTITY!! I HOPE HE DOES!! IF I HAD THE FINANCES I WOULD WELCOME HIM AND 1000s of OTHERS who are JUST WAITING FOR THE CHANCE to MAKE IT BETTER AND MAKE IT RIGHT [you know, just like all the progressives claim they wanted?] LOLOL F*n hypocrite troll of doom you are nothing more! Great biz modeller,you are eh?
xyzzyz 9y ago
I agree that he is at significant disadvantage when it comes to getting hired at Microsoft or Apple or other megacorps, but nevertheless, there are still plenty of companies that will hire him. There's more to this industry than just FAGMA megacorps.
jgh 9y ago
I notice none of those options include "admit he was wrong and apologize". I'm sure he doesn't have to work for a top-tier tech company either.
- DoofusOfDeath 9y ago
  It sounds like you're suggesting he both lies, and acts with disingenuity. I don't think it's reasonable to ask him to do that.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - criddell 9y ago
    I would assume that any apology would be backed up by some king of statement about what he has learned since the memo. At the very least he should have learned how important soft skills are and that his idea of what makes a good engineer was woefully incomplete. If he hasn't learned anything, then why would anybody hire the guy?
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      But out of the things he could have learned, which ones would make for a good public apology? If he goes public, and says - "I honestly apologize for my mistake, I never realized you people could so violently overreact to what's essentially politely expressed feasibility comment backed by scientific consensus, and that in the process you'll so maliciously misrepresent me and lie about my intentions and the contents of my memo" - how will that sound to the crowd? Because that's what his mistake really was - not realizing he's not dealing with rational people.
      - jgh 9y ago
        That's not an apology, that's being a passive-aggressive nerd.
Uhhrrr 9y ago
I would imagine he could pretty easily get contracting work at a place that doesn't care. Or create "Not James Damore Consulting, Inc." and hire himself out through that.
chasing 9y ago
> I hope they will settle for an amount sufficient for retirement and the dude's life won't get ruined due to a stupid political game he didn't even realize he was playing. "Ruined?" Because he might have to take a non-tech job? Please. He went to a diversity training event which should've given him a clear idea of Google's stance on the issue. Then he published an internal memo arguing against that stance. He knew the game he was playing. He just played it poorly. Regardless, he'll be fine.
- x3n0ph3n3 9y ago
  Actually, someone else released his memo externally.
  - chasing 9y ago
    "Then he published an internal memo arguing against that stance."
    - mpweiher 9y ago
      Feedback was explicitly solicited, and he published it in that forum. If the company doesn't want views that might contradict current policy, it should not solicit feedback.
      - lurr 9y ago
        He should have made a better argument then.
        mpweiher 9y ago
        "We have a verdict, and darn it, we will find a crime to fit that verdict."
      - Bainos 9y ago
        Asking for feedback doesn't mean allowing the employees to make discriminatory statements contradicting the company's policies and degrading its image (whether hurting the image of the company was intentional or not).
mightykan 9y ago
“... a stupid political game he didn’t even realize he was playing.” Bullshit! He’s smart enough to work at Google but didn’t realize he was playing a stupid game? I am glad that his life is ruined and that he is toxic and non-hirable. I hope this lawsuit doesn’t go anywhere (very likely since Google has all the money, resources and motivation to crush it).
- jrs95 9y ago
  > I am glad that his life is ruined There’s nothing toxic about that! As for whether or not he knew what he was doing...he may have written this thing, but he did so in an area that was designated for that sort of thing. He wasn’t the one that started emailing it to the entire company. So it’s fair to say he thought he was just having a discussion in the topic with whatever this skeptic group at Google was, and other people decided to turn it into a national political issue to get him fired for it.
  - lurr 9y ago
    If it's internal then don't write shit that will get you fired. I think forwarding it is a shitty thing to do, but he should have kept in mind that potential.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      Maybe he had faith in Google being managed by smart people, who understand the necessity of not policing internal feedback.
- SilasX 9y ago
  So you're saying it's impossible to be analytically intelligent but politically inept?
- DanAndersen 9y ago
  A recent article on Quillette actually addresses your assumption quite well: http://quillette.com/2018/01/05/empathy-gap-tech-interview-software-engineer/ http://quillette.com/2018/01/05/empathy-gap-tech-interview-s... Basically, the assumption that there's a single kind of "smartness" that generalizes equally across technical competence, social competence, and awareness of political trends is not a valid assumption. The number of non-neurotypical people that work in tech fields should make this clear. It's also unfortunate to see such glee at the idea of someone's life being ruined and happiness at the thought of a large megacorporation's large amount of resources being able to do it.
MollyR 9y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a fast 7 figure settlement. Conservatives/Populists groups are literally salivating for discovery to nail google on other things. EDIT: Also reminder some googlers kept politically motivated blacklists, if those blacklists were on company computers, Google will be hammered for it. Discovery could go wrong for Google in a million ways. https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/google-manifesto-blacklists.html https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/google-manifesto-blacklists.h...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- DoofusOfDeath 9y ago
  > Conservatives/Populists groups are literally salivating for discovery to nail google on other things. This is probably a discussion where painting with a broad brush muddies the waters. Specifically because we're talking about distinctions between individuals within the group you're calling "conservatives". Also, I get the impression that you're conflating conservatives and populists on this issue. Is that intentional? Because populism and conservatism seem pretty orthogonal to me.
- lurr 9y ago
  Really, because "We have emails from coworkers saying they won't work you anymore, we have numerous news stories that paint this in a terrible light, we have internal emails that show we spent a stupid amount of time dealing with PR issues from this, etc..." sounds like a pretty good argument for why he got fired. or do you mean google settles? maybe. I kind of wish they would just let their lawyers run wild with this though.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > EDIT: Also reminder some googlers kept politically motivated blacklists, if those blacklists were on company computers, Google will be hammered for it. Since they were G+ blocklists, they were obviously on company computers. OTOH, it's not clear (despite the lawsuits characterization, which is pretty directly contradicted by the posts and emails offered to support it) that these were motivated by ideology rather than disruptive manner of expressing that in the workplace. Moreover, it's not clear they they were, in fact, used for any problematic purpose. > Discovery could go wrong for Google in a million ways Which is why there won't be a settlement; it's clearly a politically motivated suit aimed to hurt Google as badly as possible; if Damore and the other individually named plaintiff were seeking to maximize the probability and magnitude of personal recompense, this would be a direct action. A settlement with no admission of guilt, no discovery, and just a go-away cash payment that’ll mostly be assigned to the attorneys won't achieve the goals for which they are filing the suit.
vowelless 9y ago
This is true. If the memo wasn't enough, him immediately going to right wing YouTubers like Stefan Molyneux, Jordan Peterson, Mike cernovich, Joe Rogan, Dave Rubin, Steven Crowder, etc. is suspicious. [1] Generally I wouldn't have minded if he went to right wing outlets, as long as he had also gone to left wing outlets. I was willing to listen to his reasoning. But it became clear after the memo came out that he didn't engage with left wingers and maybe he was indeed just appealing to the right. [1] I don't want to use "right wing" in a disparaging way. I think classical liberalism is perhaps right of center today. I think some of the right wing narratives make sense, but with big caveats. The far right is just a slip away, though. And they would hunt people like me down... Edit: I don't mean right wing in a disparaging way. I enjoy Joe Rogan (his interviews with NDT and Lawrence Krause are a lot of fun), Dave Rubin (his interview with Faisal is fantastic) and Jordan Peterson. But they are clearly classical liberal, which is arguably right of center today. Maybe I was extreme in saying far right is just a slip away. I think similar things can happen on the left too of course. Let just not go to the "far-*"...
- fzeroracer 9y ago
  It's really sad that we have people still arguing about the intent of his memo when his actions afterwards make it quite clear what his stance actually was. And to make sure that people know: He's a liar. Even if you ignore him intentionally misrepresenting his PhD status, he boldly lied about his FIDE chess master status.
- echoBravoDelta 9y ago
  The fact you'd like a gay liberal as right-wing is disconcerting but I agree, and independently, came to the same conclusion that is is strange how many shows he popped up on so fast.
- ddlsmurf 9y ago
  Or maybe the "left-wing" like tech crunch just flat out lie about him repeatedly. I don't appreciate any the right wing youtubers you cite, but judging by the quality of this article, I'm glad he had other opportunities to speak. In this instance I do think the left wing is stifling expression and I can't abide by that, if you think I'm exaggerating, read the memo he didn't publish but request internal criticism of, and he was fired for it by google.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
koonsolo 9y ago
You must be from US. As a European, I find all these things very absurd. Like the guys with the "dongle" joke that both got fired [1], and if I remember correctly, so did the woman reporting them. Maybe you should all start by treating each other with more respect, whoever it is. And don't go witch-hunting. [1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/how-dongle-jokes-got-two-people-fired-and-led-to-ddos-attacks/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/how-dongle-jokes...
- john_moscow 9y ago
  I actually lived in Germany for a few years before moving on to North America, so I can somewhat compare. IMO, people in US are generally more competitive than in Europe, but in the current political climate this unfortunately leads to more backstabbing and more dirty play. Europe has its holy cows as well. Try publicly questioning the Syrian refugee program or come up with scientific evidence that nationals coming from war conflict zones have a higher chance of becoming criminals - you'll get crucified the same way.
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    > Europe has its holy cows as well. Try publicly questioning the Syrian refugee program or come up with scientific evidence that nationals coming from war conflict zones have a higher chance of becoming criminals - you'll get crucified the same way. Boy, and don't even begin to mention that refugee programmes in Europe are probably the least effective way to evacuate people from a warzone (and that the majority of people coming in are likely not in fact refugees).
    - kpdxxx 9y ago
      European governments don't actively evacuate people from warzones at grand scale. Stop with the propaganda.
    - belorn 9y ago
      Looking at the numbers here in Sweden, it is interesting how close the numbers really are. About 55% of people get asylum, and of those about 66% are refugees from wars. So according to this government, that majority of people coming in are not refugees, or at least not refugees that qualify for asylum. The majority of people that get to legally stay is however refugees. Naturally people from both side of the political spectrum disagree with how the government assess applications, and it should be noted that party in power is currently the social democratic party.
mdarens 9y ago
ironically if he had a union he likely would've had the protection of a grievance process and not been subject to summary termination, regardless of how sexist his views were
- dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
  I see no irony here. The anti-union feeling is prevalent in SV and has little to do with this affair.
  - mdarens 9y ago
    the irony is that the subcultural current with which damore sympathizes is generally pretty anti-union as well, but being represented by one probably would've provided him some protection.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
      I don't think it's about keeping a job any more.
pyrrhotech 9y ago
Did your read the memo? It is hardly a far-right opinion piece...
- bertil 9y ago
  The memo might not be, but his public speaking record since seems to be further right than that.
- justherefortart 9y ago
  He'd be a bleeding heart CA liberal in Texas. I'm with you.
paulcole 9y ago
> due to a stupid political game he didn't even realize he was playing If he didn't know exactly what he was doing he deserves whatever happens to him for being so oblivious to the world around him.
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago
  Perhaps you should read up a little on Autism Spectrum Disorder. James Damore almost certainly tends to the autistic, and it can lead to both some insensitive statements not intended the way they were taken, and being unable to recognize some of the social situations he was put in.
  - omegaworks 9y ago
    Autism is not an excuse. Damore has openly sympathized with white supremacist groups. The common practice of diagnosing and pathologizing white men that have been radicalized by white supremacy and seek to shape institutional policies around white supremacy, prevents us from fully engaging with the harm they cause. Autism does not cause you to be a bigot. https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/931599879238967296 https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/931599879238967296
    - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
      I don't agree that Damore has "openly sympathized" with white supremacist groups. Unless you consider admitting "Grand Wizard" is a pretty cool title to be... "sympathizing". (It's a pretty cool title. Reprehensible humans have that title, but it's a cool title.) The fact that he didn't anticipate how badly this post would be received by the public though... a clear symptom of his presence on the spectrum. As a fellow member of the spectrum, I can fully see where Damore fits on it. In some ways I agree with his actual points (not what the media has claimed they are), but his presentation was poor, and insensitive to how it would be received. And a good chunk of his memo was just... not good. He never intended it to be public, and it certainly wasn't fit to be (I believe he considered it a work in progress, and was looking for constructive feedback), but someone angry at him decided to make him a public figure overnight by leaking it and ruined his career. He obviously made some very poor choices on who to associate with afterwards, not realizing the political implications that came with them. He failed to see how free publicity provided by certain parties would associate him with them.
Chaebixi 9y ago
> Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. I predict he'll be able to find a nice tech job eventually, and the biggest barrier he'll have to overcome is this lawsuit. There are plenty of companies who aren't so sensitive to this kind of PR and and flap around his hiring will die out quickly.
bertil 9y ago
There are many companies with very opinionated managers who are hiring developers: Breitbart as a large website comes to mind, so do some libertarian cryptocurrency companies. His reputation probably limits his research but I can see how his fame might convince some people to reach out to him at the same time. I was once identified as a chartered statistician, presumably sympathetic, by a fringe group (fun people collecting Nazi memorabilia, something that happens to get you in jail where I was at the time). Several members reached out to me to draft or sign op-eds on things like homosexual parenthood, sexuality transmittable disease and ethnicity, etc. They were clearly well financed and they had an opinion to defend (which actually makes the job easier). I refused because they didn’t have any data to support their claim so I wasn’t sure what I could do other than discrediting myself instantly (I was not very politically savvy at the time). I had a clear feeling there was a path from paid drafts to signed papers, to book deals that would have made me rich. Whether James Damore is willing to go there is a more difficult question.
- wellboy 9y ago
  He can get a job in any republican state, people will probably silently agree about the things he said, or the media painted him to have said.
tanilama 9y ago
> no big company will ever hire him Palantir or Peter Thiel will just have him well.

carrja99 9y ago

> So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organizations Isn't that what he's been doing through his twitter account where he muses whether people join the KKK because they have cool titles? Or his interviews with people like Milo?

xeeeeeeeeeeenu 9y ago
>Isn't that what he's been doing through his twitter account where he muses whether people join the KKK because they have cool titles? That was just a joke, stop pretending he is a neo-nazi.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- geofft 9y ago
  I'm very tired of this "joking" thing. Neo-Nazis (and historical Nazis before them) use jokes to cover their actual, earnest beliefs, and then go "it's just a joke bro" to shield themselves from criticism from those who disagree while gaining earnest support from those who agree. From the Daily Stormer style guide: "The unindoctrinated should not be able to tell if we are joking or not. There should also be a conscious awareness of mocking stereotypes of hateful racists. I usually think of this as self-deprecating humor - I am a racist making fun of stereotype of racists, because I don't take myself super-seriously. "This is obviously a ploy and I actually do want to gas kikes. But that's neither here nor there." I admit that he's almost certainly not playing by the alt-right's playbook - but he should be smart enough to realize that he's playing into the alt-right's playbook, and if he's not that smart, he doesn't have any business getting a job at Google or Microsoft. There are absolutely ways to express the points he's trying to make without letting yourself be turned into an alt-right poster-boy (and they're also more effective at convincing his ostensible target audience, namely senior decision-makers in large tech companies).
  - xeeeeeeeeeeenu 9y ago
    > I'm very tired of this "joking" thing. Neo-Nazis (and historical Nazis before them) use jokes to cover their actual, earnest beliefs, and then go "it's just a joke bro" to shield themselves from criticism from those who disagree while gaining earnest support from those who agree. From the Daily Stormer style guide: So basically your whole argument is that no one is allowed to joke because that's what nazis are doing? Let me quote his whole tweet: >The KKK is horrible and I don't support them in any way, but can we admit that their internal title names are cool, e.g. "Grand Wizard"? There are no shades of gray. This joke isn't even remotely offensive. The only reason why anyone could think otherwise is their prejudice against Damore.
    - geofft 9y ago
      > So basically your whole argument is that no one is allowed to joke because that's what nazis are doing? No, that is not my argument. This is about the second time in one week where I've posted "x was a bad idea in context", and someone else has replied with "So, your argument is no one should be allowed to do x ever?", so clearly I am being very bad at communicating. As with last time, I'll try to explain my position in a little more detail in the hope that it will help. My position is that, if you are already at risk of being an alt-right poster-boy (thanks to having been forced to do interviews with alt-right YouTubers because nobody else would interview you fairly, or something), and if you are not actually a supporter of the alt-right position, it is probably a good idea to avoid doing and saying things that give the further impression that you are and want to be an alt-right poster boy. (If you do want to be a supporter of the alt-right position, by all means, more power to you, but then arguments about joking are moot - you're an intentional and happy member of the alt-right and we can continue discussions having established that. But for now I'm assuming that's not the case.) This is a different position from "Don't tell jokes," or "Don't tell jokes about the KKK," or even "Don't tell jokes that make it sound like you support the KKK," or even "Don't make non-joking commentary that supports certain things the KKK is doing." A brief aside there - I don't understand how that tweet is a joke. I think it's meant earnestly, and I think it stands up as a piece of earnest commentary and I think it does him and his position a disservice to read it as a joke. The internal title names are cool. That's why they picked them. The KKK wanted, and still wants, to attract membership, and cool-sounding titles are something that pushes people from neutral to excited. This isn't a particularly novel observation, but it's certainly a true one. (And the KKK isn't alone; plenty of secret societies of varying levels of racism have done similar things through history.) The job of smart, non-KKK-sympathizing people is to recognize that this is a tactic, and to go find some other less racist outlet for your desire to be called "Grand Wizard," like tabletop gaming, instead of expressing approval for the KKK's marketing tactics. This is also a different position from "That joke is offensive." I did not claim that the joke was offensive, nor did anyone else, and I think "Actually, that's not offensive and you're wrong because you were offended" is a terribly fallacious rhetorical strategy when nobody has claimed to be offended.
MBCook 9y ago
But can he sustain that? Or is he something of a ‘flavor of the month’ that people will stop carrying about in a year or two? Is this just an attempt to extend his relevance a bit longer?
- hkmurakami 9y ago
  If his settlement is 7 figures, he can retire off of that.
  - MBCook 9y ago
    Certainly. But it doesn’t seem like he has a case to me. He’s basically trying to get a new protected class created to protect actions that clearly constituted creating a hostile work space based on long established precedent. Whatever you think of him it seems like a REALLY big hurdle. And that’s assuming no ‘mandatory binding arbitration’ issues from his work contract. Even if he wins this could take a very long time (and trips up and down the levels of courts).
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > He’s basically trying to get a new protected class created No, he's not; none of race or sex discrimination (both under federal and state law), nor political coercion (under California state law) are new protections. > to protect actions that clearly constituted creating a hostile work space based on long established precedent. That would be a problem in a direct action suit over his firing, but what he has actually filed is a class action alleging a pattern and policy of discrimination on three different prohibited bases. While there are challenges in doing that, they are different than the challenges in a direct action.
      - MBCook 9y ago
        I don’t think he has a chance of proving he’s being discriminated against because he’s a man (way too many guys at google) or white (same issue). I think his only hope is persecution for his ‘belief’, which isn’t a religion and this would be a new protection (IANAL, unsurprisingly). I didn’t see the class action bit. I wonder if he can even find enough people to join him to be certified as a class. He has a giant ‘don’t hire me’ target on him now (weather you think just or not)... will people want to throw their lot in with him and risk the same label?
korzun 9y ago
People like you should be prosecuted for spreading misinformation.

thenayr 9y ago

Or, you know, he could realize what a monumental fuck up he made and try and make a difference for the better. The dude literally let himself be paraded around by the alt-right and neo-nazi groups as a hero. -----------EDIT below--------------- Zero sympathy for this dirtbag. He's un-hireable because he deserves to be. Future advice for Damore wannabees When alt-right Twitter agrees with your world-views, you're doing something WRONG.

DoofusOfDeath 9y ago
I'm not sure how many people have the PR-savvy needed to avoid that kind of problem. So even if the consequences of not avoiding that landmine are awful, I'm not sure it's fair to castigate him for that. (N.B.: I haven't looked carefully into how he handled that affair, so my comment might be misinformed.)
- pm90 9y ago
  Most people have enough sense to not post something so inflammatory in an office system where it can be accessed by random coworkers. He could have been more nuanced about it but the controversy seems intentional and deliberate and he absolutely deserves the whole shitstorm he's facing.
  - rainbowmverse 9y ago
    I don't know where exactly I heard it, but: email like it might be read aloud in a deposition.
- ebbv 9y ago
  The fact that literally nobody else is famous for doing something so breathtakingly stupid tells us that basically everybody else is not as stupid as this guy.
viridian 9y ago
I largely agreed with the memo. I have coworkers and friends who fell on either side of the camp, but more in the agree camp than disagree. Should we just purge half the developers in Columbus for Silicon Valley wrongthink? edit: looks like thenayr updated his post a couple of times since my reply. When written only the first two lines were present.

dmourati 9y ago

I hope the Google lawyers make an example out of him and he gets nothing.

mbrumlow 9y ago
The problem is Google at all levels publicly misrepresented his arguments. Google replied with a knee jerk reaction publicly. If anything Google will settle because the proof of misrepresentation is in James's favor. Sure there are lots of things you could and Google could have argued. But they chose to respond to what had to be either a different paper or their emotions.

coloneltcb 9y ago

he could be CTO of Breitbart

dopamean 9y ago
This actually seems like a very realistic outcome.
- splintercell 9y ago
  Gab.ai would hire him in a minute.
stevenwoo 9y ago
Or Cambridge Analytica or Project Veritas or Fox News or Sky or the Wall Street Journal or Heritage Foundation, it's not that small a pool, off the top of my head.

threeseed 9y ago

No that just isn't how life does or should work. You make mistakes in an industry and you own the impacts to your reputation. He has done serious harm to the work of so many by his actions and absolutely deserves to own the consequences. And let's be serious here he has zero chance of winning against Google.

TheRealPomax 9y ago
You seem unfamiliar with the power of litigation. The case won't be about "him being fired", but about showing there is any pattern for bias in Google with respects to the three stated criteria. And if they can show that bias exists, then still without making this about him, specifically, the court can be asked to apply punitive measures against google (which their client "happens to benefit from, being part of the group that Google has demonstrated bias against"). Initial filing for a court case is crucial for establishing what we're actually sueing over, and this will be an interesting one, because the chances of his legal team winning this one are definitely non-zero.
- threeseed 9y ago
  Explain to me where Google asks when you are hired whether you are white, male or conservative. I have worked for a dozen Fortune 500 sized companies now and not once has it ever come up. He wasn't fired for any of those aspects anyway. He was fired because he chose to act in an unprofessional manner.
  - yazaddaruvala 9y ago
    Regardless of our personal feelings about the matter, the sad fact is, it might be as simple as the lawyers finding female Googlers who have public statements remotely anti-male who were not fired. I am not a lawyer but that, while trivial, might be enough for a court to rule against Google.
    - MollyR 9y ago
      That and also There was also google managers talking about having personal blacklists on twitter. It's why I think this google will settle with Damore for a very high amount, because discovery will not be good for them.

lilycaliber 9y ago

Ummm very interesting "trick" comment youve made here! [but youve outed your true intentions. LOL] HE HAS AN IMMENSE OppORTUNITY if he wins a settlement, to START UP HIS OWN COMPETING OPEN SOURCE SEARCH ENGINE ENTITY!! I HOPE HE DOES!! IF I HAD THE FINANCES I WOULD WELCOME HIM AND 1000s of OTHERS who are JUST WAITING FOR THE CHANCE to MAKE IT BETTER AND MAKE IT RIGHT [you know, just like all the progressives claim they wanted?] LOLOL F*n hypocrite troll of doom you are nothing more! Great biz modeller,you are eh?

xyzzyz 9y ago

I agree that he is at significant disadvantage when it comes to getting hired at Microsoft or Apple or other megacorps, but nevertheless, there are still plenty of companies that will hire him. There's more to this industry than just FAGMA megacorps.

jgh 9y ago

I notice none of those options include "admit he was wrong and apologize". I'm sure he doesn't have to work for a top-tier tech company either.

DoofusOfDeath 9y ago
It sounds like you're suggesting he both lies, and acts with disingenuity. I don't think it's reasonable to ask him to do that.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- criddell 9y ago
  I would assume that any apology would be backed up by some king of statement about what he has learned since the memo. At the very least he should have learned how important soft skills are and that his idea of what makes a good engineer was woefully incomplete. If he hasn't learned anything, then why would anybody hire the guy?
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    But out of the things he could have learned, which ones would make for a good public apology? If he goes public, and says - "I honestly apologize for my mistake, I never realized you people could so violently overreact to what's essentially politely expressed feasibility comment backed by scientific consensus, and that in the process you'll so maliciously misrepresent me and lie about my intentions and the contents of my memo" - how will that sound to the crowd? Because that's what his mistake really was - not realizing he's not dealing with rational people.
    - jgh 9y ago
      That's not an apology, that's being a passive-aggressive nerd.

Uhhrrr 9y ago

I would imagine he could pretty easily get contracting work at a place that doesn't care. Or create "Not James Damore Consulting, Inc." and hire himself out through that.

chasing 9y ago

> I hope they will settle for an amount sufficient for retirement and the dude's life won't get ruined due to a stupid political game he didn't even realize he was playing. "Ruined?" Because he might have to take a non-tech job? Please. He went to a diversity training event which should've given him a clear idea of Google's stance on the issue. Then he published an internal memo arguing against that stance. He knew the game he was playing. He just played it poorly. Regardless, he'll be fine.

x3n0ph3n3 9y ago
Actually, someone else released his memo externally.
- chasing 9y ago
  "Then he published an internal memo arguing against that stance."
  - mpweiher 9y ago
    Feedback was explicitly solicited, and he published it in that forum. If the company doesn't want views that might contradict current policy, it should not solicit feedback.
    - lurr 9y ago
      He should have made a better argument then.
      - mpweiher 9y ago
        "We have a verdict, and darn it, we will find a crime to fit that verdict."
    - Bainos 9y ago
      Asking for feedback doesn't mean allowing the employees to make discriminatory statements contradicting the company's policies and degrading its image (whether hurting the image of the company was intentional or not).

mightykan 9y ago

“... a stupid political game he didn’t even realize he was playing.” Bullshit! He’s smart enough to work at Google but didn’t realize he was playing a stupid game? I am glad that his life is ruined and that he is toxic and non-hirable. I hope this lawsuit doesn’t go anywhere (very likely since Google has all the money, resources and motivation to crush it).

jrs95 9y ago
> I am glad that his life is ruined There’s nothing toxic about that! As for whether or not he knew what he was doing...he may have written this thing, but he did so in an area that was designated for that sort of thing. He wasn’t the one that started emailing it to the entire company. So it’s fair to say he thought he was just having a discussion in the topic with whatever this skeptic group at Google was, and other people decided to turn it into a national political issue to get him fired for it.
- lurr 9y ago
  If it's internal then don't write shit that will get you fired. I think forwarding it is a shitty thing to do, but he should have kept in mind that potential.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Maybe he had faith in Google being managed by smart people, who understand the necessity of not policing internal feedback.
SilasX 9y ago
So you're saying it's impossible to be analytically intelligent but politically inept?
DanAndersen 9y ago
A recent article on Quillette actually addresses your assumption quite well: http://quillette.com/2018/01/05/empathy-gap-tech-interview-software-engineer/ http://quillette.com/2018/01/05/empathy-gap-tech-interview-s... Basically, the assumption that there's a single kind of "smartness" that generalizes equally across technical competence, social competence, and awareness of political trends is not a valid assumption. The number of non-neurotypical people that work in tech fields should make this clear. It's also unfortunate to see such glee at the idea of someone's life being ruined and happiness at the thought of a large megacorporation's large amount of resources being able to do it.

MollyR 9y ago

I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a fast 7 figure settlement. Conservatives/Populists groups are literally salivating for discovery to nail google on other things. EDIT: Also reminder some googlers kept politically motivated blacklists, if those blacklists were on company computers, Google will be hammered for it. Discovery could go wrong for Google in a million ways. https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/google-manifesto-blacklists.html https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/google-manifesto-blacklists.h...

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
DoofusOfDeath 9y ago
> Conservatives/Populists groups are literally salivating for discovery to nail google on other things. This is probably a discussion where painting with a broad brush muddies the waters. Specifically because we're talking about distinctions between individuals within the group you're calling "conservatives". Also, I get the impression that you're conflating conservatives and populists on this issue. Is that intentional? Because populism and conservatism seem pretty orthogonal to me.
lurr 9y ago
Really, because "We have emails from coworkers saying they won't work you anymore, we have numerous news stories that paint this in a terrible light, we have internal emails that show we spent a stupid amount of time dealing with PR issues from this, etc..." sounds like a pretty good argument for why he got fired. or do you mean google settles? maybe. I kind of wish they would just let their lawyers run wild with this though.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> EDIT: Also reminder some googlers kept politically motivated blacklists, if those blacklists were on company computers, Google will be hammered for it. Since they were G+ blocklists, they were obviously on company computers. OTOH, it's not clear (despite the lawsuits characterization, which is pretty directly contradicted by the posts and emails offered to support it) that these were motivated by ideology rather than disruptive manner of expressing that in the workplace. Moreover, it's not clear they they were, in fact, used for any problematic purpose. > Discovery could go wrong for Google in a million ways Which is why there won't be a settlement; it's clearly a politically motivated suit aimed to hurt Google as badly as possible; if Damore and the other individually named plaintiff were seeking to maximize the probability and magnitude of personal recompense, this would be a direct action. A settlement with no admission of guilt, no discovery, and just a go-away cash payment that’ll mostly be assigned to the attorneys won't achieve the goals for which they are filing the suit.

vowelless 9y ago

This is true. If the memo wasn't enough, him immediately going to right wing YouTubers like Stefan Molyneux, Jordan Peterson, Mike cernovich, Joe Rogan, Dave Rubin, Steven Crowder, etc. is suspicious. [1] Generally I wouldn't have minded if he went to right wing outlets, as long as he had also gone to left wing outlets. I was willing to listen to his reasoning. But it became clear after the memo came out that he didn't engage with left wingers and maybe he was indeed just appealing to the right. [1] I don't want to use "right wing" in a disparaging way. I think classical liberalism is perhaps right of center today. I think some of the right wing narratives make sense, but with big caveats. The far right is just a slip away, though. And they would hunt people like me down... Edit: I don't mean right wing in a disparaging way. I enjoy Joe Rogan (his interviews with NDT and Lawrence Krause are a lot of fun), Dave Rubin (his interview with Faisal is fantastic) and Jordan Peterson. But they are clearly classical liberal, which is arguably right of center today. Maybe I was extreme in saying far right is just a slip away. I think similar things can happen on the left too of course. Let just not go to the "far-*"...

fzeroracer 9y ago
It's really sad that we have people still arguing about the intent of his memo when his actions afterwards make it quite clear what his stance actually was. And to make sure that people know: He's a liar. Even if you ignore him intentionally misrepresenting his PhD status, he boldly lied about his FIDE chess master status.
echoBravoDelta 9y ago
The fact you'd like a gay liberal as right-wing is disconcerting but I agree, and independently, came to the same conclusion that is is strange how many shows he popped up on so fast.
ddlsmurf 9y ago
Or maybe the "left-wing" like tech crunch just flat out lie about him repeatedly. I don't appreciate any the right wing youtubers you cite, but judging by the quality of this article, I'm glad he had other opportunities to speak. In this instance I do think the left wing is stifling expression and I can't abide by that, if you think I'm exaggerating, read the memo he didn't publish but request internal criticism of, and he was fired for it by google.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

koonsolo 9y ago

You must be from US. As a European, I find all these things very absurd. Like the guys with the "dongle" joke that both got fired [1], and if I remember correctly, so did the woman reporting them. Maybe you should all start by treating each other with more respect, whoever it is. And don't go witch-hunting. [1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/how-dongle-jokes-got-two-people-fired-and-led-to-ddos-attacks/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/how-dongle-jokes...

john_moscow 9y ago
I actually lived in Germany for a few years before moving on to North America, so I can somewhat compare. IMO, people in US are generally more competitive than in Europe, but in the current political climate this unfortunately leads to more backstabbing and more dirty play. Europe has its holy cows as well. Try publicly questioning the Syrian refugee program or come up with scientific evidence that nationals coming from war conflict zones have a higher chance of becoming criminals - you'll get crucified the same way.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  > Europe has its holy cows as well. Try publicly questioning the Syrian refugee program or come up with scientific evidence that nationals coming from war conflict zones have a higher chance of becoming criminals - you'll get crucified the same way. Boy, and don't even begin to mention that refugee programmes in Europe are probably the least effective way to evacuate people from a warzone (and that the majority of people coming in are likely not in fact refugees).
  - kpdxxx 9y ago
    European governments don't actively evacuate people from warzones at grand scale. Stop with the propaganda.
  - belorn 9y ago
    Looking at the numbers here in Sweden, it is interesting how close the numbers really are. About 55% of people get asylum, and of those about 66% are refugees from wars. So according to this government, that majority of people coming in are not refugees, or at least not refugees that qualify for asylum. The majority of people that get to legally stay is however refugees. Naturally people from both side of the political spectrum disagree with how the government assess applications, and it should be noted that party in power is currently the social democratic party.

mdarens 9y ago

ironically if he had a union he likely would've had the protection of a grievance process and not been subject to summary termination, regardless of how sexist his views were

dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
I see no irony here. The anti-union feeling is prevalent in SV and has little to do with this affair.
- mdarens 9y ago
  the irony is that the subcultural current with which damore sympathizes is generally pretty anti-union as well, but being represented by one probably would've provided him some protection.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
    I don't think it's about keeping a job any more.

pyrrhotech 9y ago

Did your read the memo? It is hardly a far-right opinion piece...

bertil 9y ago
The memo might not be, but his public speaking record since seems to be further right than that.
justherefortart 9y ago
He'd be a bleeding heart CA liberal in Texas. I'm with you.

paulcole 9y ago

> due to a stupid political game he didn't even realize he was playing If he didn't know exactly what he was doing he deserves whatever happens to him for being so oblivious to the world around him.

ocdtrekkie 9y ago
Perhaps you should read up a little on Autism Spectrum Disorder. James Damore almost certainly tends to the autistic, and it can lead to both some insensitive statements not intended the way they were taken, and being unable to recognize some of the social situations he was put in.
- omegaworks 9y ago
  Autism is not an excuse. Damore has openly sympathized with white supremacist groups. The common practice of diagnosing and pathologizing white men that have been radicalized by white supremacy and seek to shape institutional policies around white supremacy, prevents us from fully engaging with the harm they cause. Autism does not cause you to be a bigot. https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/931599879238967296 https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/931599879238967296
  - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
    I don't agree that Damore has "openly sympathized" with white supremacist groups. Unless you consider admitting "Grand Wizard" is a pretty cool title to be... "sympathizing". (It's a pretty cool title. Reprehensible humans have that title, but it's a cool title.) The fact that he didn't anticipate how badly this post would be received by the public though... a clear symptom of his presence on the spectrum. As a fellow member of the spectrum, I can fully see where Damore fits on it. In some ways I agree with his actual points (not what the media has claimed they are), but his presentation was poor, and insensitive to how it would be received. And a good chunk of his memo was just... not good. He never intended it to be public, and it certainly wasn't fit to be (I believe he considered it a work in progress, and was looking for constructive feedback), but someone angry at him decided to make him a public figure overnight by leaking it and ruined his career. He obviously made some very poor choices on who to associate with afterwards, not realizing the political implications that came with them. He failed to see how free publicity provided by certain parties would associate him with them.

Chaebixi 9y ago

> Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. I predict he'll be able to find a nice tech job eventually, and the biggest barrier he'll have to overcome is this lawsuit. There are plenty of companies who aren't so sensitive to this kind of PR and and flap around his hiring will die out quickly.

bertil 9y ago

There are many companies with very opinionated managers who are hiring developers: Breitbart as a large website comes to mind, so do some libertarian cryptocurrency companies. His reputation probably limits his research but I can see how his fame might convince some people to reach out to him at the same time. I was once identified as a chartered statistician, presumably sympathetic, by a fringe group (fun people collecting Nazi memorabilia, something that happens to get you in jail where I was at the time). Several members reached out to me to draft or sign op-eds on things like homosexual parenthood, sexuality transmittable disease and ethnicity, etc. They were clearly well financed and they had an opinion to defend (which actually makes the job easier). I refused because they didn’t have any data to support their claim so I wasn’t sure what I could do other than discrediting myself instantly (I was not very politically savvy at the time). I had a clear feeling there was a path from paid drafts to signed papers, to book deals that would have made me rich. Whether James Damore is willing to go there is a more difficult question.

wellboy 9y ago
He can get a job in any republican state, people will probably silently agree about the things he said, or the media painted him to have said.

tanilama 9y ago

> no big company will ever hire him Palantir or Peter Thiel will just have him well.