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While there are obvious concerns about the effects of spending too much time playing video games, it doesn't seem like people are focusing much on the possible

While there are obvious concerns about the effects of spending too much time playing video games, it doesn't seem like people are focusing much on the possible psychological impact of the kind of surveillance that modern technology affords parents. Kids need some privacy to explore and express themselves, and I'm worried that as we try to let parents take their natural risk aversion to further and further extremes, we're going to hamper that.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Limiting device usage electronically or physically is a far cry away from snooping on your kids’ browsing or messaging histories. As far as intrusions go, this is a level 0. As a kid, we were limited by technology, so no limits were needed (SMB just wasn’t that replayable, and the TI/99 was even worse). Perhaps the solution to creativity here is to simply give your kids older computers to play with.
- thomastjeffery 9y ago
  If my parents had limited my amount of time spent using a computer or paying video games, I would never have gone down the path that led me to here. I have extended family who have done this, and the difference is palpable.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Me too, but back then, computers required much more intellectual work to get some satisfaction out of them. Today, you can just consume intensively on an iPad, and never learn anything about computers.
    - scotty79 9y ago
      I have a childhood friend who played as much on the computer as I did. He even wrote some simple games himself (as I did) but he is not a software developer now and I am. You can give hundred kids lego technic and most of them won't become engineers.
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        But some will. And not all those that play with them creatively will become engineers. Also, some kids who just consume iPad content will become programmers, but not because of the device. Some kid who never saw a computer before will also be men one. That’s just how statistics work.
      - whywhywhywhy 9y ago
        Not everyone who is capable of becoming an engineer sees it as something they actually want to spend their lives doing but the skills children develop with toys like Technic are still valuable and have applications beyond just engineering.
      - thomastjeffery 9y ago
        That doesn't mean he learned nothing, or that his experience was detrimental. I'm simply concerned about the collective fear parents have of their own children's liberty.
  - chc 9y ago
    I don't think that's so certain. My parents did limit the amount of time we could spend playing video games (IIRC two hours a day) and I still ended up here.
  - dwaltrip 9y ago
    It's hard to draw vast conclusions from a few anecdotes. My parents limited video game time, and I think they were right to do so. I still managed to become a (fairly skilled, I hope) software developer.
    - thomastjeffery 9y ago
      It sucks when conclusions are drawn that ignore anecdotes. I am not totally against parents controlling their children's behavior, but I am wary of how trivial it is to take that to the extreme, without even realizing it, because of a collective fear that is promoted by those around you. I am quite certain that measures of control over my "computer use" would have been detrimental. It's important to not throw that aside in discussions like this.
      - dwaltrip 9y ago
        I'm not saying strict controls are always the right thing, I just wanted to provide a counterpoint. I agree that balance is important and that not all situations are alike.
  - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
    We restricted our kids computer time and it hasn't stopped them entering the industry.
    - thomastjeffery 9y ago
      Did they get to install Linux during their early teenage years? How much restriction? What aspects of "the industry"? What sort of experiences might they have missed? Will you ever know?
      - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
        What sort of experiences might they have missed? Will you ever know? Well, I know what activities didn't get crowded out by unfettered access to a computer. It wasn't about a monastic existence, it was just keeping things in balance.
  - watwut 9y ago
    Many kids act very badly when allowed unlimited play. Aggressive, acts very annoying whenever does not have tablet, refuses to put it down even for homework or any kind of familly activity. Putting predictable enforced limits goes long way to stop that. It just works and still allows them game time. People tend to relax those rules as kids grow and problems disappear. I knew multiple people who had trouble later in school because of inability to not play till morning before major test. You really want your child to be able to stop game after a while of playing.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      If you're the one forcing them to stop, does that really teach them to stop on their own?
      - watwut 9y ago
        Yes overtime it does. First step is to get used to stop without major temper tamtrum. And clear rules set in advance work much better then seemingly random attempts to remove device when parent feel like it. They get used to stop playing, they are forced not to treat game as number one priority in life and because they find other things to do with time. And maybe also because they cease to feel entitled to tablet all the time. It prevents them into getting into habit. And makes it harder to join social groups where your game score is you social standing (thus feeding addiction via social pressure).
        TeMPOraL 9y ago
        > They get used to stop playing, they are forced not to treat game as number one priority in life and because they find other things to do with time. Basically, they're forced to learn to never immerse themselves in any activity. I'm not sure it's a good thing to ask for. At least the clear and predictable rules you describe help some. The kid will know in advance not to immerse themselves, because there isn't enough time. Beats the hell getting into an activity, and then being suddenly dragged out of it.
  - mintplant 9y ago
    Mine tried, but then bypassing those restrictions became just another challenge.
  - gambiting 9y ago
    I mean....I work as a professional C++ programmer in the games industry, and until I was about 12-14, my computer time was limited to 1 hour a day during the week days, 2 hours a day during the weekend. But then I would spend all my other free time reading, and I would read programming books and game guides instead. I have "experienced" many games by reading their game guides from start to finish, without having actually played the game itself(with such strict time limit it wasn't a good investment of time in my mind). I got my first programming book when I was 9 or 10(Visual Basic for Kids) and I would write out the code in my notebook first, check for errors with the book, and then type it in during my alloted time. Was it restrictive? Incredibly so. But maybe I wouldn't be doing what I do today if it was any different - if my computer access was unlimited and "common" - because it was so restricted I spent an inordinate amount of time preparing for each use which obviously had effects on my entire career later on.
    - BoorishBears 9y ago
      I mean, I represent the opposite story. My parents didn't really support my computer endeavors (which distracted from my academics), but on the laptops and PCs I scrounged my computer time was unlimited. Again, not without a great gnashing of teeth and frequent complaints from my parents, but kids will find a way... I recall hours and hours programming graphing calculators (and teachers seizing my calculator for programming in classes not related to math [and even some related]) I learned by spending inordinate amounts of time trying, throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks, from Assembly to Game Maker-like programs to C via SDCC for my little graphing calculator. There was little preparation and very few books, and just insane amounts of time on computers. I had "imposter syndrome" while I was learning, so I always spent time trying to do things "how the professionals" did. I remember trying TDD while I was still in early high school and worshipping XML with nicely made schemas and codegen for my RPC libraries because I thought that's what "real programmers" did. All the time spent doing things like that shaped my ability to pick and choose what "works" and what doesn't in so many other applications today And as a result today I'm a professional developer who never went to college. But maybe I wouldn't be doing what I do today if it was any different - if my computer access wasn't unlimited and "common" - because it was so unrestricted I spent an inordinate amount of time programming, which obviously had effects on my entire career later on ;)
  - JCSato 9y ago
    I wonder how much of this has to do with lack of reexamination on the parents' part. Limiting 6 year olds to 30 minutes a day (or whatever) is fine - the same limitation is less appropriate for a 10 year old and even less appropriate for a teen. It makes the most sense to me to expand time to use in adolescence, and what can be used in teenage years.
  - kale 9y ago
    My daughter has an Android tablet. For a while it was vanilla Android until I realized she was downloading an app, tapping the initial ad on the app, which lead to another app. Repeat ad nauseam until she couldn't install anything else. She isn't able to distinguish quality of apps, and was installing apps that were one giant copyright violation (My little Ponies, Mickey Mouse, and a Minion, all in the same app!). For the life of me I can't figure out how these apps make money. They're like flotsam in the Google App store, so they're making money somehow. For all I know they turn on the microphone and send the data to a rogue organization. This is very different to when I grew up. I had to write my games in Basic (I got them in the back of a catalog!) and I learned how to modify them. I plan on giving her free use of any of my Raspberry Pis, Arduinos, and if she shows interest in those big, expensive RGB LED matrices, I'll buy those for her. She can go nuts with those!
- mistercow 9y ago
  I'm not really concerned about the time limit function. But the video also says that it gives you a "report" of how much time your kids are spending on each game, and I think that may go too far. Keep in mind that this isn't just about how good parents can misuse technology in raising their kids. I think people tend to think of "parents" as a group as something different from the individual parents they've actually encountered. A lot of parents are actually pretty terrible, and when we talk about "giving parents tools" we need to keep in mind that we're also empowering those parents. So while the tendency might be to imagine some wholesome mom who just wants to know her kid isn't playing Murder-Fuck 2018, we should also remember the homophobic dad worried about his son playing a My Little Pony game.
  - astura 9y ago
    I really can't understand this comment, the homophobic dad just wouldn't buy my little pony in the first place.
    - mistercow 9y ago
      Kids have other ways of obtaining games than their parents buying them. And most kids have more than one parent. And that one example prevents you from understanding my entire comment?
      - icebraining 9y ago
        With parental controls, kids do not have other ways of obtaining games, unless it's something like a browser game, and then it won't be recorded either. So your comment seems to be based on an impossible premise.
        sah2ed 9y ago
        > With parental controls, kids do not have other ways of obtaining games ... Still possible outside the home or at school. Borrowing a device from the next door neighbor who could care less about parental controls is one way for kids who are intent on playing a game their peers are raving about. Then there is the option of using an older (teenage) sibling's device for the same purpose if left lying around in the house.
tuxidomasx 9y ago
The new Black Mirror season had an episode about this very concept called Arkangel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkangel_(Black_Mirror) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkangel_(Black_Mirror) This episode explores some of the risks that monitoring and censoring children can have on their development and also the effect it can have on the parents themselves.
- majewsky 9y ago
  That's an old theme. See e.g. the fairy tale Rapunzel.
  - b-zee 9y ago
    Could you elaborate? I fail to see the connection.
    - sirclueless 9y ago
      I suppose it's a sort of shallow reference to keeping a child locked up in a tower away from the world. Not sure it's a great comparison since the woman raising Rapunzel disowns her when she discovers she's been sleeping with a prince, and blinds him. But they find each other by her voice, her tears heal his eyes, and he takes her back to his kingdom. So I guess the moral is if you keep your innocent child locked away from the world the only people who will make an effort to find them are gallant princes.
      - TeMPOraL 9y ago
        > So I guess the moral is if you keep your innocent child locked away from the world the only people who will make an effort to find them are gallant princes. The moral sounds to me more like: if you keep your innocent child locked away from the world, you might just create a cure for blindness.
- freeflight 9y ago
  Sometimes I wonder if it isn't our fiction which forms and drives our expectations about what our future should look like. There are actually people who consider a story like Minority Report not as a cautionary tale but rather as a challenge along the lines of "They just did it wrong in fiction, we can do it better in reality!". Just like I'm pretty sure there are quite a few parents out there who would watch that BM episode and go "I'd totally put such an implant into my child but I'd do xyz different!".
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

Limiting device usage electronically or physically is a far cry away from snooping on your kids’ browsing or messaging histories. As far as intrusions go, this is a level 0. As a kid, we were limited by technology, so no limits were needed (SMB just wasn’t that replayable, and the TI/99 was even worse). Perhaps the solution to creativity here is to simply give your kids older computers to play with.

thomastjeffery 9y ago
If my parents had limited my amount of time spent using a computer or paying video games, I would never have gone down the path that led me to here. I have extended family who have done this, and the difference is palpable.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Me too, but back then, computers required much more intellectual work to get some satisfaction out of them. Today, you can just consume intensively on an iPad, and never learn anything about computers.
  - scotty79 9y ago
    I have a childhood friend who played as much on the computer as I did. He even wrote some simple games himself (as I did) but he is not a software developer now and I am. You can give hundred kids lego technic and most of them won't become engineers.
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      But some will. And not all those that play with them creatively will become engineers. Also, some kids who just consume iPad content will become programmers, but not because of the device. Some kid who never saw a computer before will also be men one. That’s just how statistics work.
    - whywhywhywhy 9y ago
      Not everyone who is capable of becoming an engineer sees it as something they actually want to spend their lives doing but the skills children develop with toys like Technic are still valuable and have applications beyond just engineering.
    - thomastjeffery 9y ago
      That doesn't mean he learned nothing, or that his experience was detrimental. I'm simply concerned about the collective fear parents have of their own children's liberty.
- chc 9y ago
  I don't think that's so certain. My parents did limit the amount of time we could spend playing video games (IIRC two hours a day) and I still ended up here.
- dwaltrip 9y ago
  It's hard to draw vast conclusions from a few anecdotes. My parents limited video game time, and I think they were right to do so. I still managed to become a (fairly skilled, I hope) software developer.
  - thomastjeffery 9y ago
    It sucks when conclusions are drawn that ignore anecdotes. I am not totally against parents controlling their children's behavior, but I am wary of how trivial it is to take that to the extreme, without even realizing it, because of a collective fear that is promoted by those around you. I am quite certain that measures of control over my "computer use" would have been detrimental. It's important to not throw that aside in discussions like this.
    - dwaltrip 9y ago
      I'm not saying strict controls are always the right thing, I just wanted to provide a counterpoint. I agree that balance is important and that not all situations are alike.
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  We restricted our kids computer time and it hasn't stopped them entering the industry.
  - thomastjeffery 9y ago
    Did they get to install Linux during their early teenage years? How much restriction? What aspects of "the industry"? What sort of experiences might they have missed? Will you ever know?
    - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
      What sort of experiences might they have missed? Will you ever know? Well, I know what activities didn't get crowded out by unfettered access to a computer. It wasn't about a monastic existence, it was just keeping things in balance.
- watwut 9y ago
  Many kids act very badly when allowed unlimited play. Aggressive, acts very annoying whenever does not have tablet, refuses to put it down even for homework or any kind of familly activity. Putting predictable enforced limits goes long way to stop that. It just works and still allows them game time. People tend to relax those rules as kids grow and problems disappear. I knew multiple people who had trouble later in school because of inability to not play till morning before major test. You really want your child to be able to stop game after a while of playing.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    If you're the one forcing them to stop, does that really teach them to stop on their own?
    - watwut 9y ago
      Yes overtime it does. First step is to get used to stop without major temper tamtrum. And clear rules set in advance work much better then seemingly random attempts to remove device when parent feel like it. They get used to stop playing, they are forced not to treat game as number one priority in life and because they find other things to do with time. And maybe also because they cease to feel entitled to tablet all the time. It prevents them into getting into habit. And makes it harder to join social groups where your game score is you social standing (thus feeding addiction via social pressure).
      - TeMPOraL 9y ago
        > They get used to stop playing, they are forced not to treat game as number one priority in life and because they find other things to do with time. Basically, they're forced to learn to never immerse themselves in any activity. I'm not sure it's a good thing to ask for. At least the clear and predictable rules you describe help some. The kid will know in advance not to immerse themselves, because there isn't enough time. Beats the hell getting into an activity, and then being suddenly dragged out of it.
- mintplant 9y ago
  Mine tried, but then bypassing those restrictions became just another challenge.
- gambiting 9y ago
  I mean....I work as a professional C++ programmer in the games industry, and until I was about 12-14, my computer time was limited to 1 hour a day during the week days, 2 hours a day during the weekend. But then I would spend all my other free time reading, and I would read programming books and game guides instead. I have "experienced" many games by reading their game guides from start to finish, without having actually played the game itself(with such strict time limit it wasn't a good investment of time in my mind). I got my first programming book when I was 9 or 10(Visual Basic for Kids) and I would write out the code in my notebook first, check for errors with the book, and then type it in during my alloted time. Was it restrictive? Incredibly so. But maybe I wouldn't be doing what I do today if it was any different - if my computer access was unlimited and "common" - because it was so restricted I spent an inordinate amount of time preparing for each use which obviously had effects on my entire career later on.
  - BoorishBears 9y ago
    I mean, I represent the opposite story. My parents didn't really support my computer endeavors (which distracted from my academics), but on the laptops and PCs I scrounged my computer time was unlimited. Again, not without a great gnashing of teeth and frequent complaints from my parents, but kids will find a way... I recall hours and hours programming graphing calculators (and teachers seizing my calculator for programming in classes not related to math [and even some related]) I learned by spending inordinate amounts of time trying, throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks, from Assembly to Game Maker-like programs to C via SDCC for my little graphing calculator. There was little preparation and very few books, and just insane amounts of time on computers. I had "imposter syndrome" while I was learning, so I always spent time trying to do things "how the professionals" did. I remember trying TDD while I was still in early high school and worshipping XML with nicely made schemas and codegen for my RPC libraries because I thought that's what "real programmers" did. All the time spent doing things like that shaped my ability to pick and choose what "works" and what doesn't in so many other applications today And as a result today I'm a professional developer who never went to college. But maybe I wouldn't be doing what I do today if it was any different - if my computer access wasn't unlimited and "common" - because it was so unrestricted I spent an inordinate amount of time programming, which obviously had effects on my entire career later on ;)
- JCSato 9y ago
  I wonder how much of this has to do with lack of reexamination on the parents' part. Limiting 6 year olds to 30 minutes a day (or whatever) is fine - the same limitation is less appropriate for a 10 year old and even less appropriate for a teen. It makes the most sense to me to expand time to use in adolescence, and what can be used in teenage years.
- kale 9y ago
  My daughter has an Android tablet. For a while it was vanilla Android until I realized she was downloading an app, tapping the initial ad on the app, which lead to another app. Repeat ad nauseam until she couldn't install anything else. She isn't able to distinguish quality of apps, and was installing apps that were one giant copyright violation (My little Ponies, Mickey Mouse, and a Minion, all in the same app!). For the life of me I can't figure out how these apps make money. They're like flotsam in the Google App store, so they're making money somehow. For all I know they turn on the microphone and send the data to a rogue organization. This is very different to when I grew up. I had to write my games in Basic (I got them in the back of a catalog!) and I learned how to modify them. I plan on giving her free use of any of my Raspberry Pis, Arduinos, and if she shows interest in those big, expensive RGB LED matrices, I'll buy those for her. She can go nuts with those!
mistercow 9y ago
I'm not really concerned about the time limit function. But the video also says that it gives you a "report" of how much time your kids are spending on each game, and I think that may go too far. Keep in mind that this isn't just about how good parents can misuse technology in raising their kids. I think people tend to think of "parents" as a group as something different from the individual parents they've actually encountered. A lot of parents are actually pretty terrible, and when we talk about "giving parents tools" we need to keep in mind that we're also empowering those parents. So while the tendency might be to imagine some wholesome mom who just wants to know her kid isn't playing Murder-Fuck 2018, we should also remember the homophobic dad worried about his son playing a My Little Pony game.
- astura 9y ago
  I really can't understand this comment, the homophobic dad just wouldn't buy my little pony in the first place.
  - mistercow 9y ago
    Kids have other ways of obtaining games than their parents buying them. And most kids have more than one parent. And that one example prevents you from understanding my entire comment?
    - icebraining 9y ago
      With parental controls, kids do not have other ways of obtaining games, unless it's something like a browser game, and then it won't be recorded either. So your comment seems to be based on an impossible premise.
      - sah2ed 9y ago
        > With parental controls, kids do not have other ways of obtaining games ... Still possible outside the home or at school. Borrowing a device from the next door neighbor who could care less about parental controls is one way for kids who are intent on playing a game their peers are raving about. Then there is the option of using an older (teenage) sibling's device for the same purpose if left lying around in the house.

tuxidomasx 9y ago

The new Black Mirror season had an episode about this very concept called Arkangel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkangel_(Black_Mirror) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkangel_(Black_Mirror) This episode explores some of the risks that monitoring and censoring children can have on their development and also the effect it can have on the parents themselves.

majewsky 9y ago
That's an old theme. See e.g. the fairy tale Rapunzel.
- b-zee 9y ago
  Could you elaborate? I fail to see the connection.
  - sirclueless 9y ago
    I suppose it's a sort of shallow reference to keeping a child locked up in a tower away from the world. Not sure it's a great comparison since the woman raising Rapunzel disowns her when she discovers she's been sleeping with a prince, and blinds him. But they find each other by her voice, her tears heal his eyes, and he takes her back to his kingdom. So I guess the moral is if you keep your innocent child locked away from the world the only people who will make an effort to find them are gallant princes.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      > So I guess the moral is if you keep your innocent child locked away from the world the only people who will make an effort to find them are gallant princes. The moral sounds to me more like: if you keep your innocent child locked away from the world, you might just create a cure for blindness.
freeflight 9y ago
Sometimes I wonder if it isn't our fiction which forms and drives our expectations about what our future should look like. There are actually people who consider a story like Minority Report not as a cautionary tale but rather as a challenge along the lines of "They just did it wrong in fiction, we can do it better in reality!". Just like I'm pretty sure there are quite a few parents out there who would watch that BM episode and go "I'd totally put such an implant into my child but I'd do xyz different!".

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]