4 ms·

Do there exist modern information workers who can't touch type?

by brucephillips 9y ago

dsego 9y ago
Yes, hence auto-complete.
- brucephillips 9y ago
  I can type. I use auto-complete all the time.
  - Moru 9y ago
    Most autocomplete functions just confuses my fingers and I end up either deleting and retyping, missing a character somewhere or I type faster than the slow autocomplete can fetch data... The linux prompt for autocomplete path and filenames are usefull though.
- artursapek 9y ago
  That's just meant to be a time saver.
megaman22 9y ago
Yes, definitely. Anything that you can imagine, there's a huge constituency that isn't capable of doing things you think are basic
- brucephillips 9y ago
  Who are they? What do they do?
  - Moru 9y ago
    Everything. Touchtyping is just not a focus in school any more. Teachers look funny at you when you ask when the kids start touchtyping. They are expected to figure it out themselves. Very funny.
  - fao_ 9y ago
    Anyone. I didn't learn to touch type and I'm about as fast as a touchtypist. Indeed, my typing speed went down when I started learning and because I didn't finish, hasn't really recovered since. 99% of programming is thinking and structuring though, so touch-typing isn't all that useful. https://phys.org/news/2016-02-ten-fingers-fast.html https://phys.org/news/2016-02-ten-fingers-fast.html http://www.i-programmer.info/news/99-professional/9427-you-dont-need-to-touch-type-to-go-fast.html http://www.i-programmer.info/news/99-professional/9427-you-d... https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c366/89b3803e8744b14bc50998c69b7b91956aa5.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c366/89b3803e8744b14bc50998...
    - brucephillips 9y ago
      Do you really spend 1% of your programming time typing? I find that hard to believe.
      - fao_ 9y ago
        I wonder what it is with hacker news and the inability of people on it to understand simple dramatic exaggeration. A more realistic estimate would be something like 40%. When I choose to, I write C or Erlang, so there is generally not much boilerplate needed in making things go. I would say 60% of my work is architectural stuff. How things should be designed, named, structured. What parts should plug into what, what functions and set of systems of POSIX to use, what makes most sense for future reading, etc.
    - computerex 9y ago
      I looked at the PDF paper and the results and I don't agree with the conclusions being drawn. The main issue I see from cursory skim is that the 30 participants had a range of typing speeds from 34-79 WPM. I don't consider these individuals typing specialists or professionals based on the low WPM. Now if you consider professionals where they have a requirement of something like 90+ WPM, then I think you are going to see very few people who are not touch typists because it'd be very difficult or maybe even impossible to reach those WPM without touch typing. I think a better conclusion to draw from the study is that touch typing isn't as useful for the lower end of the WPM spectrum. For example, if you are typing at 50 WPM, touch typing vs non-touch typing isn't going to make too much of a difference. The fastest typists in the world though are touch typists. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9EXEpjSDEw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9EXEpjSDEw As for > 99% of programming is thinking and structuring though, so touch-typing isn't all that useful. I don't think typing speed is the biggest factor in productivity in programming, but I think you are downplaying it too much. Effective use of keyboard shortcuts, using vim, and having a high WPM typing speed has noticeably increased my productivity.
35bge57dtjku 9y ago
Yes. Typing != information work.
swimfar 9y ago
I've worked with a number of engineers in Europe who couldn't type without looking at the keyboard. I assumed that it's not part of every school curriculum there. Or maybe they learned and then went back to hunt-and-peck afterwards.
- fencepost 9y ago
  Is there a lot of variability in international keyboard layouts? I'd expect the base 26 letters + digits to be pretty consistent, but in countries with a lot of accented or alternate characters I could see touch typing being less attractive as a student.
e12e 9y ago
I'm very happy I attended an optional touch type class in high-school (on typewriters, actually). My recommendation for kids would probably be to learn to touch type, on a better layout (eg dvorak, colemak, workman). Either way, proper touch typing is more than typing fast, it's also about "sustainable typing": posture, strain, reducing rsi - as well as being free to copy (read text to type in, not having to look at the keyboard or the screen where typed text is displayed). I've not met many people that proper touch type, even programmers. Even if being able to copy a page of example code from a magazine/book is a useful skill.
- brucephillips 9y ago
  You're describing ergonomics, not touch typing.
  - Moru 9y ago
    Ergonomic typing is usually part of the touchtyping class. At least when I was in school 30 odd years ago. I think it was obligatory for everyone but can't remember any grades. Most didn't bother though. (Sweden)
- ValleyOfTheMtns 9y ago
  One of the most practical and high-use skills I learned in high-school was touch typing.
- Ayaz 9y ago
  Absolutely. I learned touch typing on my own during my O'Levels years when I bumped into a DOS-based touch typing tutor. It changed the way I looked at computers.
xxpor 9y ago
I hunt and peck but I don’t need to look at the keyboard
Ayaz 9y ago
Sadly, yes. Out of the 400 people that work where I work, less than 30 know how to touch type. It deeply saddens me.

Do there exist modern information workers who can't touch type?

dsego 9y ago

Yes, hence auto-complete.

brucephillips 9y ago
I can type. I use auto-complete all the time.
- Moru 9y ago
  Most autocomplete functions just confuses my fingers and I end up either deleting and retyping, missing a character somewhere or I type faster than the slow autocomplete can fetch data... The linux prompt for autocomplete path and filenames are usefull though.
artursapek 9y ago
That's just meant to be a time saver.

megaman22 9y ago

Yes, definitely. Anything that you can imagine, there's a huge constituency that isn't capable of doing things you think are basic

brucephillips 9y ago
Who are they? What do they do?
- Moru 9y ago
  Everything. Touchtyping is just not a focus in school any more. Teachers look funny at you when you ask when the kids start touchtyping. They are expected to figure it out themselves. Very funny.
- fao_ 9y ago
  Anyone. I didn't learn to touch type and I'm about as fast as a touchtypist. Indeed, my typing speed went down when I started learning and because I didn't finish, hasn't really recovered since. 99% of programming is thinking and structuring though, so touch-typing isn't all that useful. https://phys.org/news/2016-02-ten-fingers-fast.html https://phys.org/news/2016-02-ten-fingers-fast.html http://www.i-programmer.info/news/99-professional/9427-you-dont-need-to-touch-type-to-go-fast.html http://www.i-programmer.info/news/99-professional/9427-you-d... https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c366/89b3803e8744b14bc50998c69b7b91956aa5.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c366/89b3803e8744b14bc50998...
  - brucephillips 9y ago
    Do you really spend 1% of your programming time typing? I find that hard to believe.
    - fao_ 9y ago
      I wonder what it is with hacker news and the inability of people on it to understand simple dramatic exaggeration. A more realistic estimate would be something like 40%. When I choose to, I write C or Erlang, so there is generally not much boilerplate needed in making things go. I would say 60% of my work is architectural stuff. How things should be designed, named, structured. What parts should plug into what, what functions and set of systems of POSIX to use, what makes most sense for future reading, etc.
  - computerex 9y ago
    I looked at the PDF paper and the results and I don't agree with the conclusions being drawn. The main issue I see from cursory skim is that the 30 participants had a range of typing speeds from 34-79 WPM. I don't consider these individuals typing specialists or professionals based on the low WPM. Now if you consider professionals where they have a requirement of something like 90+ WPM, then I think you are going to see very few people who are not touch typists because it'd be very difficult or maybe even impossible to reach those WPM without touch typing. I think a better conclusion to draw from the study is that touch typing isn't as useful for the lower end of the WPM spectrum. For example, if you are typing at 50 WPM, touch typing vs non-touch typing isn't going to make too much of a difference. The fastest typists in the world though are touch typists. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9EXEpjSDEw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9EXEpjSDEw As for > 99% of programming is thinking and structuring though, so touch-typing isn't all that useful. I don't think typing speed is the biggest factor in productivity in programming, but I think you are downplaying it too much. Effective use of keyboard shortcuts, using vim, and having a high WPM typing speed has noticeably increased my productivity.

35bge57dtjku 9y ago

Yes. Typing != information work.

swimfar 9y ago

I've worked with a number of engineers in Europe who couldn't type without looking at the keyboard. I assumed that it's not part of every school curriculum there. Or maybe they learned and then went back to hunt-and-peck afterwards.

fencepost 9y ago
Is there a lot of variability in international keyboard layouts? I'd expect the base 26 letters + digits to be pretty consistent, but in countries with a lot of accented or alternate characters I could see touch typing being less attractive as a student.

e12e 9y ago

I'm very happy I attended an optional touch type class in high-school (on typewriters, actually). My recommendation for kids would probably be to learn to touch type, on a better layout (eg dvorak, colemak, workman). Either way, proper touch typing is more than typing fast, it's also about "sustainable typing": posture, strain, reducing rsi - as well as being free to copy (read text to type in, not having to look at the keyboard or the screen where typed text is displayed). I've not met many people that proper touch type, even programmers. Even if being able to copy a page of example code from a magazine/book is a useful skill.

brucephillips 9y ago
You're describing ergonomics, not touch typing.
- Moru 9y ago
  Ergonomic typing is usually part of the touchtyping class. At least when I was in school 30 odd years ago. I think it was obligatory for everyone but can't remember any grades. Most didn't bother though. (Sweden)
ValleyOfTheMtns 9y ago
One of the most practical and high-use skills I learned in high-school was touch typing.
Ayaz 9y ago
Absolutely. I learned touch typing on my own during my O'Levels years when I bumped into a DOS-based touch typing tutor. It changed the way I looked at computers.

xxpor 9y ago

I hunt and peck but I don’t need to look at the keyboard

Ayaz 9y ago

Sadly, yes. Out of the 400 people that work where I work, less than 30 know how to touch type. It deeply saddens me.