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I hate this feeling of hopelessness regarding global warming. It feels like even if you were a billionaire/massive corp, at some point you would say "wow we sho

I hate this feeling of hopelessness regarding global warming. It feels like even if you were a billionaire/massive corp, at some point you would say "wow we should stop, or else there won't even be a world to spend this money in".

stingraycharles 9y ago
I think it's partially related to something akin to the prisoner's dilemma: it's a world-wide problem, and "we" might not want to take the financial hit for being the first in leading the cause. I spent quite some time in South-East Asia the past few years, and when you see the sheer amount of boats that just dump all their trash in the ocean, and the sheer lack of awareness of the issue, it makes you hopeless. I come home, diligently recycling my trash, and I can't help but wonder whether this is all just a show, and not addressing any of the core issues that are needed to fix this.
- StavrosK 9y ago
  "Tragedy of the commons", it's called.
  - stingraycharles 9y ago
    Thanks, I never fully understood what people meant with that phrase. :)
    - StavrosK 9y ago
      No problem, it's when something can be improved when everyone does the right thing together, but nobody has any incentive to do the right thing alone. Exactly like dumping trash everywhere, if you do the right thing alone, you're just inconveniencing yourself by spending money to dispose of trash properly while everyone else dumps it wherever.
      - stingraycharles 9y ago
        Thanks again, very informative. So does that mean that the prisoner's dilemma is unrelated to this ? The reason I mentioned that is that I figured there were two outcomes: - be rich/save money now, and get a possible competitive edge over other countries - invest in your future, long-term assuming other countries do the same
        StavrosK 9y ago
        The tragedy of the commons can be modeled as a game, and the matrix can be similar to the one from the prisoner's dilemma, but they're not exactly the same. For example, if you properly recycle and I just dump my trash, I'm not better off than if we just both dumped our trash, which is what happens with the prisoner's dilemma. Basically, the prisoners have an incentive to deceive each other, whereas in the tragedy of the commons, you generally don't.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- yodsanklai 9y ago
  I share your feeling, but I also note this contradiction: > I spent quite some time in South-East Asia > I come home, diligently recycling my trash Not saying you shouldn't recycle your trash, but your flights are much more impactful for the environment than your trash.
  - bamboozled 9y ago
    Is flying really that bad compared to ocean pollution? I feel like flying is overall a pretty efficient means of transport, everything is geared towards efficiency. Plastic in the oceans, now that’s a mess.
    - the8472 9y ago
      Consider a world where every human traveled by plane like you do and where also every human used recycling as you do. Would you prefer living in that world?
      - bamboozled 9y ago
        yes?
      - paulryanrogers 9y ago
        Not the OP, but if jet fuel were more sustainable or electric planes more common then certainly. (I too feel conflicted about plane travel and it's long term impact.)
      - 35bge57dtjku 9y ago
        http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_juice/2014/07/driving_vs_flying_which_is_more_harmful_to_the_environment.html http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_juice/2014/07/dri...
        darpa_escapee 9y ago
        > Consider a world where every human traveled by plane like you do and where also every human used recycling as you do. Would you prefer living in that world? According to the above article, one would prefer that. > The trend has continued so that in 2010, flying burned just 2,691 BTU per passenger mile—an improvement of 74 percent since 1970. That was 43 percent better than driving the average car, which gets about 21.5 miles per gallon (4,218 BTU per passenger mile)
- sandworm101 9y ago
  It is too late to worry about going first. A great many countries have already stepped up. Recycling isnt much help. Putting a few meters of solar on your roof is far more important. Not taking a first-class flight to vacation on the other side of the planet is also good. Installing an entire roof of solar, and making sure your grandparents vote against the coal lobby, that's the best anyone can do atm.
- mdekkers 9y ago
  I can't help but wonder whether this is all just a show, and not addressing any of the core issues that are needed to fix this That´s exactly what is going on.
- coliveira 9y ago
  > I can't help but wonder whether this is all just a show Do you know that the garbage that is "recycled" in the USA used to be sent (until Dec 2017) directly to China? This is one of the scams of the century. Nobody knows what China does with the material they cannot use, and in fact they just decided not to take it anymore.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
yodsanklai 9y ago
I think they don't care because they will be the last ones suffering.
dpwm 9y ago
When I read articles like this I feel a similar helplessness. I am reminded of Bob Mankoff's cartoon: https://cartoons.bobmankoff.com/52630 https://cartoons.bobmankoff.com/52630
- danieka 9y ago
  "Yes, the planet got destroyed. But for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders." https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995 https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995
brohoolio 9y ago
We fixed the ozone layer and stopped acid rain. We can fix this. It just takes commitment.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  And that commitment is exactly the problem.
  - dpwm 9y ago
    It's more that such a commitment goes against the incentives laid down by a means of production that is enforced almost globally by both treaty and military might.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      Reality is simpler - it's in no one's (perceived, short-term) best interest to be the first to spend money, material and manpower on fixing this, because the moment they start, they'll get eaten alive by their competitors. This applies at the level of individuals, small businesses, large businesses and governments alike. It's a garden variety coordination problem - but it seems that, with technology successfully solving most of our non-social problems, lack of coordination is what underlies all the important issues humanity faces these days. See also http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ for an in-depth discussion of coordination problems.
- topmonk 9y ago
  We didn't have to give up cars for the ozone layer, though. In fact, no one had to give up anything, because they invented new types of aerosol propellents. We are never going to fix this.
  - worldsayshi 9y ago
    We can invent ourselves out of fossil fuel reliance. It's more complicated but the work is underway. Never is a long time.
methehack 9y ago
w/r/t the tragedy of the commons... The thing that I'm a little afraid to say out loud is that I don't see how any of this is solved with our current political structures. Sovereign nations? Democracies? At some point -- when the sh#$ really hits the fan -- these structures are going to seem like idealistic but ineffective luxuries. I suppose catastrophe (my sense is there will be no need to engineer it) could spur inspired alignment; or some kind of global consciousness awakening event (we're waiting, Jesus 2.0/Whatever). The long arch of hope seems pretty hopeless from an individual's perspective at this moment in time, so much so that I actively try (and fail) _not_ to think about this. I can't imagine what folks at, say, the pentagon, are planning out who spend all day obsessing on it. They must have some pretty dark scenarios mapped out. Simply put, we have grown to the size of our resource container and that container is about to shrink. We're far from ready. The species will likely eek it's way through. Civilization? Not so much.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
taf2 9y ago
Wait isn’t this what Tesla is helping solve? It’s why you should invest in them.
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  I can't help feeling you will have more impact investing in a bicycle.

stingraycharles 9y ago

I think it's partially related to something akin to the prisoner's dilemma: it's a world-wide problem, and "we" might not want to take the financial hit for being the first in leading the cause. I spent quite some time in South-East Asia the past few years, and when you see the sheer amount of boats that just dump all their trash in the ocean, and the sheer lack of awareness of the issue, it makes you hopeless. I come home, diligently recycling my trash, and I can't help but wonder whether this is all just a show, and not addressing any of the core issues that are needed to fix this.

StavrosK 9y ago
"Tragedy of the commons", it's called.
- stingraycharles 9y ago
  Thanks, I never fully understood what people meant with that phrase. :)
  - StavrosK 9y ago
    No problem, it's when something can be improved when everyone does the right thing together, but nobody has any incentive to do the right thing alone. Exactly like dumping trash everywhere, if you do the right thing alone, you're just inconveniencing yourself by spending money to dispose of trash properly while everyone else dumps it wherever.
    - stingraycharles 9y ago
      Thanks again, very informative. So does that mean that the prisoner's dilemma is unrelated to this ? The reason I mentioned that is that I figured there were two outcomes: - be rich/save money now, and get a possible competitive edge over other countries - invest in your future, long-term assuming other countries do the same
      - StavrosK 9y ago
        The tragedy of the commons can be modeled as a game, and the matrix can be similar to the one from the prisoner's dilemma, but they're not exactly the same. For example, if you properly recycle and I just dump my trash, I'm not better off than if we just both dumped our trash, which is what happens with the prisoner's dilemma. Basically, the prisoners have an incentive to deceive each other, whereas in the tragedy of the commons, you generally don't.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
yodsanklai 9y ago
I share your feeling, but I also note this contradiction: > I spent quite some time in South-East Asia > I come home, diligently recycling my trash Not saying you shouldn't recycle your trash, but your flights are much more impactful for the environment than your trash.
- bamboozled 9y ago
  Is flying really that bad compared to ocean pollution? I feel like flying is overall a pretty efficient means of transport, everything is geared towards efficiency. Plastic in the oceans, now that’s a mess.
  - the8472 9y ago
    Consider a world where every human traveled by plane like you do and where also every human used recycling as you do. Would you prefer living in that world?
    - bamboozled 9y ago
      yes?
    - paulryanrogers 9y ago
      Not the OP, but if jet fuel were more sustainable or electric planes more common then certainly. (I too feel conflicted about plane travel and it's long term impact.)
    - 35bge57dtjku 9y ago
      http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_juice/2014/07/driving_vs_flying_which_is_more_harmful_to_the_environment.html http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_juice/2014/07/dri...
      - darpa_escapee 9y ago
        > Consider a world where every human traveled by plane like you do and where also every human used recycling as you do. Would you prefer living in that world? According to the above article, one would prefer that. > The trend has continued so that in 2010, flying burned just 2,691 BTU per passenger mile—an improvement of 74 percent since 1970. That was 43 percent better than driving the average car, which gets about 21.5 miles per gallon (4,218 BTU per passenger mile)
sandworm101 9y ago
It is too late to worry about going first. A great many countries have already stepped up. Recycling isnt much help. Putting a few meters of solar on your roof is far more important. Not taking a first-class flight to vacation on the other side of the planet is also good. Installing an entire roof of solar, and making sure your grandparents vote against the coal lobby, that's the best anyone can do atm.
mdekkers 9y ago
I can't help but wonder whether this is all just a show, and not addressing any of the core issues that are needed to fix this That´s exactly what is going on.
coliveira 9y ago
> I can't help but wonder whether this is all just a show Do you know that the garbage that is "recycled" in the USA used to be sent (until Dec 2017) directly to China? This is one of the scams of the century. Nobody knows what China does with the material they cannot use, and in fact they just decided not to take it anymore.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

yodsanklai 9y ago

I think they don't care because they will be the last ones suffering.

dpwm 9y ago

When I read articles like this I feel a similar helplessness. I am reminded of Bob Mankoff's cartoon: https://cartoons.bobmankoff.com/52630 https://cartoons.bobmankoff.com/52630

danieka 9y ago
"Yes, the planet got destroyed. But for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders." https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995 https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995

brohoolio 9y ago

We fixed the ozone layer and stopped acid rain. We can fix this. It just takes commitment.

jacquesm 9y ago
And that commitment is exactly the problem.
- dpwm 9y ago
  It's more that such a commitment goes against the incentives laid down by a means of production that is enforced almost globally by both treaty and military might.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Reality is simpler - it's in no one's (perceived, short-term) best interest to be the first to spend money, material and manpower on fixing this, because the moment they start, they'll get eaten alive by their competitors. This applies at the level of individuals, small businesses, large businesses and governments alike. It's a garden variety coordination problem - but it seems that, with technology successfully solving most of our non-social problems, lack of coordination is what underlies all the important issues humanity faces these days. See also http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ for an in-depth discussion of coordination problems.
topmonk 9y ago
We didn't have to give up cars for the ozone layer, though. In fact, no one had to give up anything, because they invented new types of aerosol propellents. We are never going to fix this.
- worldsayshi 9y ago
  We can invent ourselves out of fossil fuel reliance. It's more complicated but the work is underway. Never is a long time.

methehack 9y ago

w/r/t the tragedy of the commons... The thing that I'm a little afraid to say out loud is that I don't see how any of this is solved with our current political structures. Sovereign nations? Democracies? At some point -- when the sh#$ really hits the fan -- these structures are going to seem like idealistic but ineffective luxuries. I suppose catastrophe (my sense is there will be no need to engineer it) could spur inspired alignment; or some kind of global consciousness awakening event (we're waiting, Jesus 2.0/Whatever). The long arch of hope seems pretty hopeless from an individual's perspective at this moment in time, so much so that I actively try (and fail) _not_ to think about this. I can't imagine what folks at, say, the pentagon, are planning out who spend all day obsessing on it. They must have some pretty dark scenarios mapped out. Simply put, we have grown to the size of our resource container and that container is about to shrink. We're far from ready. The species will likely eek it's way through. Civilization? Not so much.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

taf2 9y ago

Wait isn’t this what Tesla is helping solve? It’s why you should invest in them.

tonyedgecombe 9y ago
I can't help feeling you will have more impact investing in a bicycle.