13 ms·

> I see this shit every day in other parents: “She hates to read!” “He’s lazy!” “She’s bad at math!” You are imprisoning your kid with your words, fuckers! Tha

by bambax 9y ago

> I see this shit every day in other parents: “She hates to read!” “He’s lazy!” “She’s bad at math!” You are imprisoning your kid with your words, fuckers! That's spot on. It's really upsetting to hear people say that about children, especially people with authority (parents, grandparents). DON'T DO THAT! Or, if you have to do that (!?!) at least be positive. Don't tell a kid she's bad at math, tell her she's good at math and you're surprised she doesn't get good grades -- she's a natural! all of this should be sooo easy for her! there must be something holding her back. People tend to conform to other people's opinions of them; they will get good at math just to match the image we're projecting on them.

lawn 9y ago
I don't think you should ever say that someone is naturally good, "a natural" or anything like that. Instead kids should be praised for effort, for trying and having a growth mindset. If we only comment on how inherently good they are they might get lazy as whenever they get bad grades excuses like "I wasn't trying" works. It doesn't matter if the parents continue being surprised of the bad grades, the answer can also be "I was just lazy". This is exactly what happened to me and I'm still trying to reprogram myself.
- Morizero 9y ago
  The name for this topic is fixed vs growth mindset: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset#Fixed_and_growth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset#Fixed_and_growth You'll see that and related phrases as buzzwords sometimes.
  - ghostcluster 9y ago
    > This article may lend undue weight to certain ideas, incidents, or controversies. Psychologists can't replicate Carol Dweck's 'Growth Mindset' claims: https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/what-is-your-mindset https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/what-is-your-mindset > The findings of Dweck’s key study have never been replicated in a published paper, which is noteworthy in so high-profile a work. One scientist told BuzzFeed News that his attempt to reproduce the findings has so far failed. An investigation found several small but revealing errors in the study that may require a correction. It is likely another hypothesized model from the social psychology field that doesn't actually exist, in the same category as Stereotype Threat and Power Posing.
    - jdietrich 9y ago
      I don't know why this was downvoted. Dweck's claims are the subject of enormous scepticism in the psychology community. Her data is a bit too neat, her effect sizes are consistently stronger than we'd expect, there's a complete lack of replication. It's not being rejected out of hand, but there are a lot of red flags.
      - drdrey 9y ago
        On a personal level, I just find life better since my mindset has shifted from static to growth. I used to consider myself only good at logic and programming, and I would not even attempt anything remotely artistic, literary or athletic. I would rationalize this as being part of my identity, and it would conveniently allow me to avoid confronting failure or getting out of my comfort zone. Changing this view of myself has been liberating honestly.
    - mangodrunk 9y ago
      Thanks for the article. It appears that the field is rife with issues, but I imagine it's a difficult topic and a young field. Another bogus model from the article is positive psychology.
  - hacker_9 9y ago
    I don't know why these terms are thrown out like they're useless, as they pretty much explain most people's way of thinking. If you give up you have a fixed mindset, where you simply think you weren't born to be good enough to know something. Whereas a growth mindset will try to break down the problem into smaller chunks and try to figure them out first, and grow their knowledge. It often just takes mentioning these concepts to someone for them to have an epiphany and get on the growth mind track.
    - maroonblazer 9y ago
      I'm my own sample but when I was growing up and got C's and lower my parents' consistent message was that I had certain 'gifts' but it required me to put in the effort in order to reap the benefits of those gifts. I'm not sure they meant it this way but now that I'm older I realize that those 'gifts' could simply have been a healthy brain, free of any obvious learning disability, chronic fatigue or ADHD-like symptoms. And lo and behold, when I did in fact put in the effort I'd get Bs and As. As a parent I use that approach with my son and, so far, it seems to be working.
- criddell 9y ago
  Sometimes it's hard to avoid because it's fairly evident. For example, if you have two kids and get them both instruments for Christmas and a day later one is playing little songs and the other can hardly make noise, it's hard to come up with any other explanation than "your sister just picked it up more quickly than you did".
dudzik 9y ago
I would like to add that praising can backfire as well. For example, if a child gets a good grade and you praise its intelligence instead of their work it seems that they won't put in the effort next time.[1] 1: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8624.2007.00995.x/full http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8624.2007....
- dsego 9y ago
  I think this was me. Being praised as an intelligent kid, thought I didn't need to practice or study as hard. Being smug, possible narcissistic tendencies, thinking you're better than other kids. Then getting frustrated when other kids who shouldn't be smart do better etc. It can develop into a manipulative and damaged personality.
- pluma 9y ago
  Ugh, yes. When I was little my parents kept telling me I'm smart so every time I got a bad grade they told me I could have done better (but didn't show me how) and whenever I was sure I was going to get a bad grade because I knew I didn't fully understand something or hadn't prepared well enough they just reassured me I'd be fine because I'm smart. At the time all I would have wanted to hear is "it's okay if you don't do well on this one" (because it'd have taken the pressure off when I knew I couldn't do well) but what I really would have needed to hear would have been "yes, you're not well prepared, so you might not do well on this one but we'll help you prepare for next time so you won't be in this situation again". I mostly got by avoiding homework and underperforming (I had the talent to do well enough but didn't put in the effort to take advantage of that) but my parents only intervened when I was at risk of having to repeat a year -- and at that point the only way to make progress was rote learning, which I hated and was (and still am) extremely bad at (because I had never done it before). So IOW you may think your kid's a genius but the important thing is not to let them rest on their laurels. Don't obsess over grades but make sure your kid participates in class and does their homework like they should or else they'll skip on that out of habit and will be woefully underprepared when they run into situations where they can't get by on simply being a "genius" (which may be sooner than you think).
cjsuk 9y ago
I agree. Another failure mode is that of my sister in law. She spent ten years throwing pens, pencils, paper, Lego, books, all in the bin because they make a mess. Everything creative was an inconvenience. Her eldest is in and out of prison. Her daughter was pregnant at 14. Her youngest is violent and has already got a social worker. If every creative or intellectual outlet is taken away from someone or they are demotivated, what is left? It makes me sad when I hear of parents prescribing anything negative.
eludwig 9y ago
Yes, not screwing up your children is a an excellent goal for a parent, if not a moral imperative. But the truth is that parenting is a huge messy business that never goes according to plan. You will screw up your kids in subtle ways, even if you avoid the major landmines. This is not due to any failing beyond being a human being that was also raised by fallible parents. The other parents on HN will appreciate this: how many times have you heard the words coming out of your mouth and thought "Oh my god. I swore I would never say that to my child! I sound just like my mother(or father)!" Way too many times, lol. It's completely unavoidable. This thought is usually followed by a small voice which sheepishly admits "So that's why they said that to me!" As the article says, it is truly up to each one of us to remove the imaginary shackles of self-definition. We, as children, are willing co-conspirators in the building of our own false self-image. It is necessary to have a rigid model of ourselves in childhood? I guess that's debatable, but I would argue that it probably is. I think it gets us through to adulthood, where it can and should be gently discarded as a tool (like bicycle training wheels) that was once useful but no longer is.
- contingencies 9y ago
  Parenting is a huge messy business that never goes according to plan Totally, and that goes for systems as well as children.
- somethingsimple 9y ago
  > This thought is usually followed by a small voice which sheepishly admits "So that's why they said that to me!" It’s amazing how a lot of my childhood memories started making sense after I had a kid.
pbhjpbhj 9y ago
In think this has been shown to get worse results than praising effort. I call my kids out for being lazy when they're being lazy. Examples from this morning "I don't know what the second rucksack is": meaning "I can't be bothered getting it out the rucksack, you do it for me", my answer "You just want someone else to do it, stop being lazy and get it yourself". Also "I can't do it [take off my boots]": meaning "I don't want to bother, and my hands will get dirty", my answer "why should someone else get their hands dirty, just because you can't be bothered to pull" (then I demonstrated what to do, then mimicked his pretending he couldn't do it in order to demonstrate I knew what he was up to). It's not for nothing my kids get me Darth Vader merchandise!
- perfmode 9y ago
  Be careful with the coldness. This may backfire on you down the road. Your children may stop respecting you as they gain independence.
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    Yes, but also my role as parent is not necessarily to be liked: I'm concerned to help him develop resilience and self-reliance above my own desire to be liked. It's a delicate balance.
    - somethingsimple 9y ago
      > my role as parent is not necessarily to be liked I wish more people understood/accepted this.
      - solitus 9y ago
        As long as you do not burn bridges, I think this is spot on. In the long run, when your kids are adults they will like you more for it than if you had been their "friend" during childhood.
    - vonmoltke 9y ago
ghostcluster 9y ago
This idea, while tempting to lend weight to on the surface, is highly overblown. Stereotype Threat doesn't hold up to repeated testing. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/rabble-rouser/201512/is-stereotype-threat-overcooked-overstated-and-oversold https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/rabble-rouser/201512/is... And what's more, this "grit" trait, the propensity to follow through and get stuff done, appears to be a set of inherited traits as well. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-limits-of-grit https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-limits-of...
- 0xcde4c3db 9y ago
  Wow. That description of the Seahawks milieu says to me that it's not developing traits like grit and optimism, but rather selecting for them. I wonder if intervention studies for this sort of thing ought to be done with intention-to-treat analysis, just like with drug studies [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intention-to-treat_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intention-to-treat_analysis
dominotw 9y ago
Wouldn't positive comments imprison also? You have to live up to the image that has been created. I know lots of Indian kids are drepressed and driven to suicide. My high school roommate commited suicide due to this.
- somethingsimple 9y ago
  Yes. Overly positive comments can have a negative effect as well, if not accompanied by the reassurance that it's ok not to be good at everything/screw up sometimes. Also, a positive comment for consolation purposes ("but you're so good at it!" when they actually aren't) is dishonest and kids can tell (I know I could at least, and I know my daughter can). There's a really good book that talks about this (among other things) called How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk [1]. [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GG0MXI/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GG0MXI/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...
codingdave 9y ago
Don't lie to your children about their strengths and weaknesses. Help them appreciate that everyone is good at some things, not so good at others, and teach them to figure out which is which, improve what is important to them, and choose their own path through life. Not only will this make them happier with themselves, it will empower them to improve, and help them appreciate the differences of everyone surrounding them.
- sanderjd 9y ago
  It seems like a tricky balance to me. I think even adults are quite bad at telling the difference between "I'm not good at this" and "this is a very hard thing". In other words, I fear the message you're suggesting would lead to the list of "things I'm good at" just being all the easy things, and "things I'm not so good at" being all the hard things. This is the classic "I'm bad at math" problem - maybe some people are, but I mostly hear it from people who have bumped up against its fundamentally difficult concepts and have drawn a premature conclusion. I myself did this after struggling with a really good (ie. hard) chemistry class in high school. I avoided it in college until I was forced to take it, and found that I loved it. I have always regretted drawing a premature conclusion about my aptitude for chemistry. I don't think you're really wrong, I just think it's much harder than you're making it sound, and I wonder if the cure is worse than the disease.
ianai 9y ago
Actually the thing to do is remove the violence of the language. Simply acknowledge whatever situation with no subjective statements. “Your math grade is a C. Would you like tutoring?” Violent language like your examples hurt people. Those hurts sum to resent and ultimately more violence. The following book goes into this in depth: Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life: Marshall B. Rosenberg, Arun Gandhi
- shawnz 9y ago
  Has this technique been proven to be successful? Otherwise I don't think it's right to call it "the thing to do".
  - ianai 9y ago
    People indicate the methods from that book saved their marriages. I’m not aware of any studies because I don’t have time to become an expert on this. Violence comes in many forms and diminishes peoples’ autonomy. That’s almost the definition of violence. So remove the diminishing language as a start.
  - Joeri 9y ago
    My experience so far as a parent is that there is no such thing as universally appropriate parenting technique. Every child has their own personality and responds to different things in different ways. Still, I prefer to use techniques that don't make my children feel unhappy, for obvious reasons. First the carrot, then the stick.
- trevyn 9y ago
  “No.” (Goes off and plays video games.)
  - ianai 9y ago
    Yes with kids you probably have to carry it out further. The point, I think, is to remove emotionally charged or conclusive statements. “I know you like the ability to afford a new computer every other year. That will be difficult if you don’t have the technical knowledge for a higher paying job.” Etc
andrew_wc_brown 9y ago
As a chid I was told I was smart, as you suggested and to fit the description of what I was labeled, I resorted to chronically lying about my skills to measure up. There's no sliver bullet to this problem.
foxhop 9y ago
I try (although its hard) to avoid both positive and negative "x is y" phrases. Instead I try to frame it as growth mindset. "Wow, you have learned so much math this year because you worked really hard."
somethingsimple 9y ago
> Don't tell a kid she's bad at math, tell her she's good at math and you're surprised she doesn't get good grades I think one must be careful with this. I'd use that approach if my kid got a single bad grade among otherwise great grades in math. But I wouldn't tell her that if I knew she wasn't good at math - that would just be dishonest, and kids can tell. My approach with my daughter is to praise her for things I've observed she's good at, and to make comments about the thing itself when I see her struggling. When she struggles with something, I encourage her by telling her that the thing itself is hard, instead of downplaying her ability to accomplish it. When applicable, I tell her it's hard even for me, as in "it's hard even for a 30-year old grown ass dude like me, so don't fret over it." And finally, if I see her struggling with something I believe she shouldn't at her age (e.g. handwriting), I look up resources that will help me help her, or ultimately seek external help.
- dboreham 9y ago
  This touches on some personal experience: Since I'm reading HN of course I'm good at math. However, I don't really believe there is any such thing -- rather I had some good teachers, and father who knew math and who was willing to invest time explaining it to me, and something of a desire to "understand everything" which of course includes (starts with) Mathematics. Deep down I guess I think that perhaps when you get to Hilbert's problems _then_ you might be talking "hard math" but until then it really isn't that much to get your head around. You just need a decent teacher, time and effort. So now I have two sons. Both I will say struggled somewhat with Math up to 7th grade when they hit a good teacher. By "struggled" I mean they got constant A/A+ but I had to put in significant work (as did they) to get them there. First son now in 9th grade gets continuous A+ without any help from me. Sometimes I ask him questions about what he's studying, and try to expand his horizons accordingly. The other son in 7th grade is still somewhat struggling but I can feel he is getting to a turning point. Second son would often become disillusioned and say "I'm just not good at math". I can just imagine teachers and family members nodding in agreement. I didn't do that : I told him he just doesn't understand it yet but he will. Anyway, my concern in this is : how many kids end up believing they're "not good at math" due to their teachers, family and environment? How many scientists and engineers (or just members of the public who understand statistics and interest rates...) are we losing because the idea that "math is hard" is so widely held and propagated like a virus?
fartblaster9000 9y ago
Do you have kids?

by bambax 9y ago

lawn 9y ago

I don't think you should ever say that someone is naturally good, "a natural" or anything like that. Instead kids should be praised for effort, for trying and having a growth mindset. If we only comment on how inherently good they are they might get lazy as whenever they get bad grades excuses like "I wasn't trying" works. It doesn't matter if the parents continue being surprised of the bad grades, the answer can also be "I was just lazy". This is exactly what happened to me and I'm still trying to reprogram myself.

Morizero 9y ago
The name for this topic is fixed vs growth mindset: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset#Fixed_and_growth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset#Fixed_and_growth You'll see that and related phrases as buzzwords sometimes.
- ghostcluster 9y ago
  > This article may lend undue weight to certain ideas, incidents, or controversies. Psychologists can't replicate Carol Dweck's 'Growth Mindset' claims: https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/what-is-your-mindset https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/what-is-your-mindset > The findings of Dweck’s key study have never been replicated in a published paper, which is noteworthy in so high-profile a work. One scientist told BuzzFeed News that his attempt to reproduce the findings has so far failed. An investigation found several small but revealing errors in the study that may require a correction. It is likely another hypothesized model from the social psychology field that doesn't actually exist, in the same category as Stereotype Threat and Power Posing.
  - jdietrich 9y ago
    I don't know why this was downvoted. Dweck's claims are the subject of enormous scepticism in the psychology community. Her data is a bit too neat, her effect sizes are consistently stronger than we'd expect, there's a complete lack of replication. It's not being rejected out of hand, but there are a lot of red flags.
    - drdrey 9y ago
      On a personal level, I just find life better since my mindset has shifted from static to growth. I used to consider myself only good at logic and programming, and I would not even attempt anything remotely artistic, literary or athletic. I would rationalize this as being part of my identity, and it would conveniently allow me to avoid confronting failure or getting out of my comfort zone. Changing this view of myself has been liberating honestly.
  - mangodrunk 9y ago
    Thanks for the article. It appears that the field is rife with issues, but I imagine it's a difficult topic and a young field. Another bogus model from the article is positive psychology.
- hacker_9 9y ago
  I don't know why these terms are thrown out like they're useless, as they pretty much explain most people's way of thinking. If you give up you have a fixed mindset, where you simply think you weren't born to be good enough to know something. Whereas a growth mindset will try to break down the problem into smaller chunks and try to figure them out first, and grow their knowledge. It often just takes mentioning these concepts to someone for them to have an epiphany and get on the growth mind track.
  - maroonblazer 9y ago
    I'm my own sample but when I was growing up and got C's and lower my parents' consistent message was that I had certain 'gifts' but it required me to put in the effort in order to reap the benefits of those gifts. I'm not sure they meant it this way but now that I'm older I realize that those 'gifts' could simply have been a healthy brain, free of any obvious learning disability, chronic fatigue or ADHD-like symptoms. And lo and behold, when I did in fact put in the effort I'd get Bs and As. As a parent I use that approach with my son and, so far, it seems to be working.
criddell 9y ago
Sometimes it's hard to avoid because it's fairly evident. For example, if you have two kids and get them both instruments for Christmas and a day later one is playing little songs and the other can hardly make noise, it's hard to come up with any other explanation than "your sister just picked it up more quickly than you did".

dudzik 9y ago

I would like to add that praising can backfire as well. For example, if a child gets a good grade and you praise its intelligence instead of their work it seems that they won't put in the effort next time.[1] 1: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8624.2007.00995.x/full http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8624.2007....

dsego 9y ago
I think this was me. Being praised as an intelligent kid, thought I didn't need to practice or study as hard. Being smug, possible narcissistic tendencies, thinking you're better than other kids. Then getting frustrated when other kids who shouldn't be smart do better etc. It can develop into a manipulative and damaged personality.
pluma 9y ago
Ugh, yes. When I was little my parents kept telling me I'm smart so every time I got a bad grade they told me I could have done better (but didn't show me how) and whenever I was sure I was going to get a bad grade because I knew I didn't fully understand something or hadn't prepared well enough they just reassured me I'd be fine because I'm smart. At the time all I would have wanted to hear is "it's okay if you don't do well on this one" (because it'd have taken the pressure off when I knew I couldn't do well) but what I really would have needed to hear would have been "yes, you're not well prepared, so you might not do well on this one but we'll help you prepare for next time so you won't be in this situation again". I mostly got by avoiding homework and underperforming (I had the talent to do well enough but didn't put in the effort to take advantage of that) but my parents only intervened when I was at risk of having to repeat a year -- and at that point the only way to make progress was rote learning, which I hated and was (and still am) extremely bad at (because I had never done it before). So IOW you may think your kid's a genius but the important thing is not to let them rest on their laurels. Don't obsess over grades but make sure your kid participates in class and does their homework like they should or else they'll skip on that out of habit and will be woefully underprepared when they run into situations where they can't get by on simply being a "genius" (which may be sooner than you think).

cjsuk 9y ago

I agree. Another failure mode is that of my sister in law. She spent ten years throwing pens, pencils, paper, Lego, books, all in the bin because they make a mess. Everything creative was an inconvenience. Her eldest is in and out of prison. Her daughter was pregnant at 14. Her youngest is violent and has already got a social worker. If every creative or intellectual outlet is taken away from someone or they are demotivated, what is left? It makes me sad when I hear of parents prescribing anything negative.

eludwig 9y ago

Yes, not screwing up your children is a an excellent goal for a parent, if not a moral imperative. But the truth is that parenting is a huge messy business that never goes according to plan. You will screw up your kids in subtle ways, even if you avoid the major landmines. This is not due to any failing beyond being a human being that was also raised by fallible parents. The other parents on HN will appreciate this: how many times have you heard the words coming out of your mouth and thought "Oh my god. I swore I would never say that to my child! I sound just like my mother(or father)!" Way too many times, lol. It's completely unavoidable. This thought is usually followed by a small voice which sheepishly admits "So that's why they said that to me!" As the article says, it is truly up to each one of us to remove the imaginary shackles of self-definition. We, as children, are willing co-conspirators in the building of our own false self-image. It is necessary to have a rigid model of ourselves in childhood? I guess that's debatable, but I would argue that it probably is. I think it gets us through to adulthood, where it can and should be gently discarded as a tool (like bicycle training wheels) that was once useful but no longer is.

contingencies 9y ago
Parenting is a huge messy business that never goes according to plan Totally, and that goes for systems as well as children.
somethingsimple 9y ago
> This thought is usually followed by a small voice which sheepishly admits "So that's why they said that to me!" It’s amazing how a lot of my childhood memories started making sense after I had a kid.

pbhjpbhj 9y ago

In think this has been shown to get worse results than praising effort. I call my kids out for being lazy when they're being lazy. Examples from this morning "I don't know what the second rucksack is": meaning "I can't be bothered getting it out the rucksack, you do it for me", my answer "You just want someone else to do it, stop being lazy and get it yourself". Also "I can't do it [take off my boots]": meaning "I don't want to bother, and my hands will get dirty", my answer "why should someone else get their hands dirty, just because you can't be bothered to pull" (then I demonstrated what to do, then mimicked his pretending he couldn't do it in order to demonstrate I knew what he was up to). It's not for nothing my kids get me Darth Vader merchandise!

perfmode 9y ago
Be careful with the coldness. This may backfire on you down the road. Your children may stop respecting you as they gain independence.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  Yes, but also my role as parent is not necessarily to be liked: I'm concerned to help him develop resilience and self-reliance above my own desire to be liked. It's a delicate balance.
  - somethingsimple 9y ago
    > my role as parent is not necessarily to be liked I wish more people understood/accepted this.
    - solitus 9y ago
      As long as you do not burn bridges, I think this is spot on. In the long run, when your kids are adults they will like you more for it than if you had been their "friend" during childhood.
  - vonmoltke 9y ago

ghostcluster 9y ago

This idea, while tempting to lend weight to on the surface, is highly overblown. Stereotype Threat doesn't hold up to repeated testing. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/rabble-rouser/201512/is-stereotype-threat-overcooked-overstated-and-oversold https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/rabble-rouser/201512/is... And what's more, this "grit" trait, the propensity to follow through and get stuff done, appears to be a set of inherited traits as well. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-limits-of-grit https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-limits-of...

0xcde4c3db 9y ago
Wow. That description of the Seahawks milieu says to me that it's not developing traits like grit and optimism, but rather selecting for them. I wonder if intervention studies for this sort of thing ought to be done with intention-to-treat analysis, just like with drug studies [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intention-to-treat_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intention-to-treat_analysis

dominotw 9y ago

Wouldn't positive comments imprison also? You have to live up to the image that has been created. I know lots of Indian kids are drepressed and driven to suicide. My high school roommate commited suicide due to this.

somethingsimple 9y ago
Yes. Overly positive comments can have a negative effect as well, if not accompanied by the reassurance that it's ok not to be good at everything/screw up sometimes. Also, a positive comment for consolation purposes ("but you're so good at it!" when they actually aren't) is dishonest and kids can tell (I know I could at least, and I know my daughter can). There's a really good book that talks about this (among other things) called How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk [1]. [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GG0MXI/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GG0MXI/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...

codingdave 9y ago

Don't lie to your children about their strengths and weaknesses. Help them appreciate that everyone is good at some things, not so good at others, and teach them to figure out which is which, improve what is important to them, and choose their own path through life. Not only will this make them happier with themselves, it will empower them to improve, and help them appreciate the differences of everyone surrounding them.

sanderjd 9y ago
It seems like a tricky balance to me. I think even adults are quite bad at telling the difference between "I'm not good at this" and "this is a very hard thing". In other words, I fear the message you're suggesting would lead to the list of "things I'm good at" just being all the easy things, and "things I'm not so good at" being all the hard things. This is the classic "I'm bad at math" problem - maybe some people are, but I mostly hear it from people who have bumped up against its fundamentally difficult concepts and have drawn a premature conclusion. I myself did this after struggling with a really good (ie. hard) chemistry class in high school. I avoided it in college until I was forced to take it, and found that I loved it. I have always regretted drawing a premature conclusion about my aptitude for chemistry. I don't think you're really wrong, I just think it's much harder than you're making it sound, and I wonder if the cure is worse than the disease.

ianai 9y ago

Actually the thing to do is remove the violence of the language. Simply acknowledge whatever situation with no subjective statements. “Your math grade is a C. Would you like tutoring?” Violent language like your examples hurt people. Those hurts sum to resent and ultimately more violence. The following book goes into this in depth: Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life: Marshall B. Rosenberg, Arun Gandhi

shawnz 9y ago
Has this technique been proven to be successful? Otherwise I don't think it's right to call it "the thing to do".
- ianai 9y ago
  People indicate the methods from that book saved their marriages. I’m not aware of any studies because I don’t have time to become an expert on this. Violence comes in many forms and diminishes peoples’ autonomy. That’s almost the definition of violence. So remove the diminishing language as a start.
- Joeri 9y ago
  My experience so far as a parent is that there is no such thing as universally appropriate parenting technique. Every child has their own personality and responds to different things in different ways. Still, I prefer to use techniques that don't make my children feel unhappy, for obvious reasons. First the carrot, then the stick.
trevyn 9y ago
“No.” (Goes off and plays video games.)
- ianai 9y ago
  Yes with kids you probably have to carry it out further. The point, I think, is to remove emotionally charged or conclusive statements. “I know you like the ability to afford a new computer every other year. That will be difficult if you don’t have the technical knowledge for a higher paying job.” Etc

andrew_wc_brown 9y ago

As a chid I was told I was smart, as you suggested and to fit the description of what I was labeled, I resorted to chronically lying about my skills to measure up. There's no sliver bullet to this problem.

foxhop 9y ago

I try (although its hard) to avoid both positive and negative "x is y" phrases. Instead I try to frame it as growth mindset. "Wow, you have learned so much math this year because you worked really hard."

somethingsimple 9y ago

> Don't tell a kid she's bad at math, tell her she's good at math and you're surprised she doesn't get good grades I think one must be careful with this. I'd use that approach if my kid got a single bad grade among otherwise great grades in math. But I wouldn't tell her that if I knew she wasn't good at math - that would just be dishonest, and kids can tell. My approach with my daughter is to praise her for things I've observed she's good at, and to make comments about the thing itself when I see her struggling. When she struggles with something, I encourage her by telling her that the thing itself is hard, instead of downplaying her ability to accomplish it. When applicable, I tell her it's hard even for me, as in "it's hard even for a 30-year old grown ass dude like me, so don't fret over it." And finally, if I see her struggling with something I believe she shouldn't at her age (e.g. handwriting), I look up resources that will help me help her, or ultimately seek external help.

dboreham 9y ago
This touches on some personal experience: Since I'm reading HN of course I'm good at math. However, I don't really believe there is any such thing -- rather I had some good teachers, and father who knew math and who was willing to invest time explaining it to me, and something of a desire to "understand everything" which of course includes (starts with) Mathematics. Deep down I guess I think that perhaps when you get to Hilbert's problems _then_ you might be talking "hard math" but until then it really isn't that much to get your head around. You just need a decent teacher, time and effort. So now I have two sons. Both I will say struggled somewhat with Math up to 7th grade when they hit a good teacher. By "struggled" I mean they got constant A/A+ but I had to put in significant work (as did they) to get them there. First son now in 9th grade gets continuous A+ without any help from me. Sometimes I ask him questions about what he's studying, and try to expand his horizons accordingly. The other son in 7th grade is still somewhat struggling but I can feel he is getting to a turning point. Second son would often become disillusioned and say "I'm just not good at math". I can just imagine teachers and family members nodding in agreement. I didn't do that : I told him he just doesn't understand it yet but he will. Anyway, my concern in this is : how many kids end up believing they're "not good at math" due to their teachers, family and environment? How many scientists and engineers (or just members of the public who understand statistics and interest rates...) are we losing because the idea that "math is hard" is so widely held and propagated like a virus?

fartblaster9000 9y ago

Do you have kids?